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  1. #1351
    Believe. PhantomDashCam's Avatar
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    Just thinking of the Spurs type players based on either personality or skill set, or both.

    Kispert.
    Duarte.
    Wagner.
    Garuba.
    Sengun.
    Moody.
    Tre Mann.

    Not saying these would all be targeted with the #12 pick, but thinking of the type of players they usually go for.

    I'm preparing for Kispert. And I suppose as others have said, it's not even so much about him but how he could affect how other Spurs play. If Kispert's spacing helps Keldon bulldoze to the rim more freely, for example, then I suppose I can see the benefit and get on board. I suppose he can't really be a bust at 12, but the lack of upside does seem concerning. But to flip it around, I'd rather pick Kispert than Kai Jones, for example.

    I really hope we can squeeze into the top 4 and debate Suggs versus Kaminga, but that's not likely.
    Definitely a Spurs-y type list. Think you could add Jaden Springer there too.

    Wears #11. Similar body type and hair to a prior Spur.

  2. #1352
    Believe. Degoat's Avatar
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    Last year they drafted on need, IMO. Without Vassell, what do they have with Lonnie underperforming and Mills & DeMar likely gone? They also don't really have a backup point without Mills, and they have Tre now.
    Maybe so, but I think last year a big wing or a big man was more of a need, but we selected Vassell because he was the highest on their big board. We didn’t know if Jakob would be back, LMA was in his last year, Luka looked like a bust at the time. Meanwhile we already had two wings we were developing in Lonnie and Keldon.

  3. #1353
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    Chinook, I’d love to see the Spurs make moves with any kind of direction and purpose, but they have been very averse to it, either bc they overvalue their guys or other teams want to push their crap on them, but one thing they aren’t is opportunistic—to their detriment.

    This is kind of why I don’t bother too much with scouting anymore (plus time sink)... Was Samanic a better prospect than Keldon? Has he panned out? Not yet. Maybe he will next season. He’s looked good sometimes, but not enough. Keldon has given more flashes. Anyways I leave that to the experts. I do hope they pick someone who pans out. Every season they gamble and miss will cost them years in the bottom dwellers spots.

  4. #1354
    Believe. PhantomDashCam's Avatar
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    Eff all that. The goal shouldn't be to try to get a designated shooter to make the broken perimeter players the Spurs currently have work. There's no way they should go into next year with the plan to be to run White, Murray, Johnson and Poeltl. That's barely a more functional unit than the one this year. I have nothing against any player in the draft at this point, so this isn't me not being okay with Kispert. But even with him, the Spurs need to replace one of their perimeter starters with a guy like Vassell. Honestly, the team needs to be capable to replacing two this off-season, whether it's because Vassell takes a leap, the team drafts a player or they use some of their cap space to drag away some free agents.

    IF Murray, White and/or Johnson prove themselves as starters in camp, sure keep them. But don't have them go basically unopposed. Developing them isn't the team's priority anymore, certainly not to the point where another young player like Bouknight can't develop because a bunch of meh guys keep taking turns running into defenses and burping up bad possessions. Basically, the Spurs shouldn't draft with roster fit in mind. They have plenty of cap space to worry about that. They're going to have to just take who they think will be the best player, whether that be a role-player or a potential star who'd require a complete reworking of his supporting cast to develop.

    I also think that the Spurs should be more willing than every to trade some of their "core" for future value. They no longer have a leg to stand on when it comes to them "winning now", so using looking to make a deal with White, Murray and/or Poeltl makes a ton of sense. Moving any of those guys also opens up a spot for a shooter who'd make it easier to draft a guy who needs space.
    I think in all honesty that will be the outcome. You definitely want to run a camp this year where compe ion for spots are fierce and nothing is pre determined.

    I almost wish FA occurred prior to the draft this year to give us at least an idea of what needs can be addressed before potentially utilising a pick for anything other than projected BPA.

  5. #1355
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    Maybe so, but I think last year a big wing or a big man was more of a need, but we selected Vassell because he was the highest on their big board. We didn’t know if Jakob would be back, LMA was in his last year, Luka looked like a bust at the time. Meanwhile we already had two wings we were developing in Lonnie and Keldon.
    It could theoretically be argued the Spurs need a great player at any position and theoretically can use an upgrade at multiple spots. Having said that their pick is 12, not in the top 3... so there’s risk there... of missing out mostly on the good one.

  6. #1356
    Believe. Degoat's Avatar
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    It could theoretically be argued the Spurs need a great player at any position and theoretically can use an upgrade at multiple spots. Having said that their pick is 12, not in the top 3... so there’s risk there... of missing out mostly on the good one.
    Exactly that’s kinda what I’m meaning to say! Lol I think the spurs will select the guy who could be an upgrade at any position instead of drafting based on a team need.

  7. #1357
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    It could theoretically be argued the Spurs need a great player at any position and theoretically can use an upgrade at multiple spots. Having said that their pick is 12, not in the top 3... so there’s risk there... of missing out mostly on the good one.
    It's also a fact that star point guards rarely, if ever, come from the #11 to #20 range. Dominant centers don't either. Historically speaking, the "BPA" in the range where the Spurs are selecting are usually wings and forwards. The Spurs are betting against history if they select anything else otherwise.

  8. #1358
    Veteran The Truth #6's Avatar
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    Which is ok because we need a forward.

  9. #1359
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Eff all that. The goal shouldn't be to try to get a designated shooter to make the broken perimeter players the Spurs currently have work. There's no way they should go into next year with the plan to be to run White, Murray, Johnson and Poeltl.
    Eh, I didn't even mention any players in the post you quoted. Fact is, one way or another, the Spurs need to add shooting -- hence Kispert in theory being a possibility. I don't care whether he's a fit with the current roster (he may or may not be depending on where Keldon and Vassell end up positionally) as much as it'd be nice that he can fit with any roster down the road if he pans out.

    Best case scenario is the Spurs see someone who they think has star potential and swing for the fences. If they don't see such a player, a shooter in today's game has value ... whether that's Kispert or even Duarte or Butler.

  10. #1360
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    So, when is the actual draft lottery?

  11. #1361
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Chinook, I’d love to see the Spurs make moves with any kind of direction and purpose, but they have been very averse to it, either bc they overvalue their guys or other teams want to push their crap on them, but one thing they aren’t is opportunistic—to their detriment.

    This is kind of why I don’t bother too much with scouting anymore (plus time sink)... Was Samanic a better prospect than Keldon? Has he panned out? Not yet. Maybe he will next season. He’s looked good sometimes, but not enough. Keldon has given more flashes. Anyways I leave that to the experts. I do hope they pick someone who pans out. Every season they gamble and miss will cost them years in the bottom dwellers spots.
    I find it interesting that so many Spurs fans say they want the Spurs to take gambles and try to draft stars ... but then when the Spurs do it, they hate it. Samanic was an obvious swing for the fences. He was a guy who sucked in Europe but was so athletic, mobile and skilled that there was a chance that he could develop into something in a couple years. But instead of liking the pick, the same Spurs fans who cosigned on taking gambles were whining that the Spurs didn't pick old-and-ready Brandon Clarke. Fast forward two years and Samanic is still maturing and Clarke is old news as the Grizzlies 12th man -- yet Spurs fans in general would still rather have Clarke even though he has shown himself to be a low ceiling 6-foot-7 center

  12. #1362
    Veteran ace3g's Avatar
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    So, when is the actual draft lottery?

    • June 21-27: NBA Draft Combine
    • June 22: NBA Draft Lottery
    • July 19: Deadline for an early entry player to withdraw from the NBA Draft (5 p.m. ET)
    • July 29: 2021 NBA Draft

  13. #1363
    I want some NASTY! SpurPadre's Avatar
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    I'd take a top 5 pick over getting to the play-in and losing the game. By the time the Spurs draft at 12, most of the players we want will be gone.
    The bad luck keeps striking this franchise. It really sucks that we're in worse shape than we were last offseason but still come away with a worse pick and money to spend on a ty free agent class. Just can't catch a ing break smh.

  14. #1364
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Eh, I didn't even mention any players in the post you quoted. Fact is, one way or another, the Spurs need to add shooting -- hence Kispert in theory being a possibility. I don't care whether he's a fit with the current roster (he may or may not be depending on where Keldon and Vassell end up positionally) as much as it'd be nice that he can fit with any roster down the road if he pans out.

    Best case scenario is the Spurs see someone who they think has star potential and swing for the fences. If they don't see such a player, a shooter in today's game has value ... whether that's Kispert or even Duarte or Butler.
    Again, my point wasn't anti-Kispert. It's that it's not the responsibility of a rookie to space the floor for guys who shouldn't've developed to need that kind of spacing. The Spurs can and should use some of their roster flexibility to get shooting. But if they don't combine that with a reduction of non-shooting, they will still find themselves going long stretches of minutes playing four or five poor/reluctant shooters at the same time. That Pop feels White/Murray/Johnson is a responsible perimeter set-up has more of an effect on spacing than getting a bench player who's a good player. When Pop did have a great shooter, he glued him to the starting lineup in an attempt to make Murray/DeRozan/Lyles/Aldridge work. Basically doing the same thing with Kispert instead isn't an answer. The Spurs should basically commit to the idea that they aren't going to play more than three (or better yet two) of Murray, White, Johnson and Poeltl in the starting lineup. If they do that, then they can go into the draft free to evaluate the prospects based on their actual ability and not worry about replacing Forbes.

    I find it interesting that so many Spurs fans say they want the Spurs to take gambles and try to draft stars ... but then when the Spurs do it, they hate it. Samanic was an obvious swing for the fences. He was a guy who sucked in Europe but was so athletic, mobile and skilled that there was a chance that he could develop into something in a couple years. But instead of liking the pick, the same Spurs fans who cosigned on taking gambles were whining that the Spurs didn't pick old-and-ready Brandon Clarke. Fast forward two years and Samanic is still maturing and Clarke is old news as the Grizzlies 12th man -- yet Spurs fans in general would still rather have Clarke even though he has shown himself to be a low ceiling 6-foot-7 center
    I don't think the Spurs should "take gambles and try to draft stars". At least, I don't think that a guy potentially being a star means it's okay to be raw. I sort of take issue with the suggestion that a future star has to be raw and basically unplayable before being drafted. Guys like George and Leonard had role-player floors with NBA niches. Not that the early results suggest it, but for all we know, Vassell with put things together and progress from three-and-D guy to legit offensive option as well. I don't regret the Spurs not drafting Pokusevski. I still like Clarke, and I still think he'd be a fine player for the team to have right now. That he's not getting minutes on a Memphis team that just straight cut Gorgui Dieng doesn't really change my mind. Memphis at least has a stacked big-man rotation and is a playoff team. The Spurs don't have a lot of PF options and still didn't find a way to have Samanic in their rotation until they basically started tanking.

    That's why I'm not against Kispert (that and because he actually seems to have more offensive upside than his role-player projection would assume). Elite role-players not only help stars develop, but they also have a ton of trade value. If the Spurs are going to eventually do the three-step process to build themselves into a contender, getting a solid core of young/cheap players with a lot of trade value is essential. The Spurs are going to have to get used to trading their players, because they aren't going to draft a star trio and hold onto them long enough to have an OKC-like rise.

  15. #1365
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    The bad luck keeps striking this franchise. It really sucks that we're in worse shape than we were last offseason but still come away with a worse pick and money to spend on a ty free agent class. Just can't catch a ing break smh.

  16. #1366
    My Girl's a Hooper keithington1's Avatar
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    Greg Brown is exactly what the Spurs need if he could shoot and create a little more. Would allow the Spurs to play big switchable defense. And he would matchup against the bigger scorers. He reminds me of Jaylon Brown and Jerami Grant. 33 percent from three and 71 from the free throw line is promising for a 6’9” super athletic 3/4.

  17. #1367
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Chinook, I’d love to see the Spurs make moves with any kind of direction and purpose, but they have been very averse to it, either bc they overvalue their guys or other teams want to push their crap on them, but one thing they aren’t is opportunistic—to their detriment.

    This is kind of why I don’t bother too much with scouting anymore (plus time sink)... Was Samanic a better prospect than Keldon? Has he panned out? Not yet. Maybe he will next season. He’s looked good sometimes, but not enough. Keldon has given more flashes. Anyways I leave that to the experts. I do hope they pick someone who pans out. Every season they gamble and miss will cost them years in the bottom dwellers spots.
    I "scout" in the NBA more than I do in the NFL, but yeah, I am basically content to take a wait-and-see approach for most cir stances. I eventually pick guys and end up being right or wrong on them, but I rarely feel really strongly opposed to anyone whom they draft. I don't know that I'd say SA overvalues their players as much as they place a high tariff on exporting them (the term doesn't really fit there, but I think it conveys the idea). Like they hate forcing their guys to move so much that they mark up the prices on them. Teams basically have to offer huge overpays to get them to move a guy like Hill if the guy doesn't ask out. They have to get over that. It's okay to treat players like humans and even family. But they're not fixtures of the franchise. The Spurs don't have a core right now, and they have to cycle through players in order to find that core. They can't just change out the bottom of their roster. They'll have to be willing to get some new starters and key bench players as well. They don't have to become like the Hinkie Sixers when it comes to how ruthlessly they deal guys. But they have to constantly think about which few players make the most sense to hold onto and then be willing to attack opportunity to advance their long-term position with the rest of the roster.

    In that regard, I really do think making a deal with Murray to GS makes the most sense for both sides. DJM would be a perfect fit between Steph and Klay, and the Spurs could eat Wiggins' salary to add value. The Warriors get a young piece and save money. Murray goes to a potential contender. The Spurs get another lotto pick and clears up their guard rotation for a guy like Bouknight or whatever.

  18. #1368
    I want some NASTY! SpurPadre's Avatar
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    So one can't vent here anymore? Like you did earlier? No one talked about you doing that.

  19. #1369
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Again, my point wasn't anti-Kispert. It's that it's not the responsibility of a rookie to space the floor for guys who shouldn't've developed to need that kind of spacing. The Spurs can and should use some of their roster flexibility to get shooting. But if they don't combine that with a reduction of non-shooting, they will still find themselves going long stretches of minutes playing four or five poor/reluctant shooters at the same time. That Pop feels White/Murray/Johnson is a responsible perimeter set-up has more of an effect on spacing than getting a bench player who's a good player. When Pop did have a great shooter, he glued him to the starting lineup in an attempt to make Murray/DeRozan/Lyles/Aldridge work. Basically doing the same thing with Kispert instead isn't an answer. The Spurs should basically commit to the idea that they aren't going to play more than three (or better yet two) of Murray, White, Johnson and Poeltl in the starting lineup. If they do that, then they can go into the draft free to evaluate the prospects based on their actual ability and not worry about replacing Forbes.
    I think these are two separate issues that don't really overlap. Especially because one is a front office decision (who to draft) and one is a coaching issue (who to play). If you draft Kispert, you do so thinking he's something close to the best player available. I don't think you draft Kispert with some ultimatum that players X, Y and Z can't play together or whatever

    I think we're in agreement that the current roster shouldn't be considered during the draft. For example, I wouldn't want the Spurs to avoid picking a point guard because they think that position is set. But if we're in agreement with that, it should cut the other way too. You don't avoid drafting players because of some hypothetical scenario where it leads Pop to making a bad lineup decision at some point down the line -- especially because Pop may not even be the coach.

    P.S.

    I think you need to update what you think of White and shooting threes. He wasn't a reluctant shooter this season. In fact, he basically reached Forbesian levels of letting three-pointers fly. Murray, Johnson, DeRozan, Poeltl ... yeah, those guys are an issue when it comes to shooting. I don't think White deserves to be in that group anymore.

    I don't think the Spurs should "take gambles and try to draft stars". At least, I don't think that a guy potentially being a star means it's okay to be raw. I sort of take issue with the suggestion that a future star has to be raw and basically unplayable before being drafted. Guys like George and Leonard had role-player floors with NBA niches.
    Man, that'd really narrow things down. Finding stars is hard enough ... finding stars that aren't raw and have role player floors is like pinhead in a haystack hard. By that definition, the Spurs wouldn't have been able to draft Giannis, Booker, Jokic, Gobert, Siakam, Ginobili, Parker, etc because all those guys had floors lower than role player level.

  20. #1370
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    The bad luck keeps striking this franchise. It really sucks that we're in worse shape than we were last offseason but still come away with a worse pick and money to spend on a ty free agent class. Just can't catch a ing break smh.
    Jesus Christ, jump off a cliff already.

  21. #1371
    Believe. Degoat's Avatar
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    There’s so many prospects I keep talking myself into lol I guess that’s good tho means will get somebody good

  22. #1372
    Believe. Em-City's Avatar
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    It's also a fact that star point guards rarely, if ever, come from the #11 to #20 range. Dominant centers don't either. Historically speaking, the "BPA" in the range where the Spurs are selecting are usually wings and forwards. The Spurs are betting against history if they select anything else otherwise.
    Kinda true, it's super hard to find all star level talent at those positions outside the top 10.

    There have been some stars, borderline stars, and potential stars though:
    2014 Lavine 13, Capela 25
    2015 booker 13, Holmes 37
    2016 siakam 17, brogdon 36
    2017 adebayo 14, John Collins 19 Jarrett Allen 22
    2018 timelord 27

  23. #1373
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Kinda true, it's super hard to find all star level talent at those positions outside the top 10.

    There have been some stars, borderline stars, and potential stars though:
    2014 Lavine 13, Capela 25
    2015 booker 13, Holmes 37
    2016 siakam 17, brogdon 36
    2017 adebayo 14, John Collins 19 Jarrett Allen 22
    2018 timelord 27
    https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...1#post10507464

    https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...1#post10507476

    No point guards or C's was my point.

  24. #1374
    Veteran The Truth #6's Avatar
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    It's interesting. So much of this debate isn't simply who to pick, because it raises underlying questions about how the FO should operate. While I think the team should sell high on Murray, or at least entertain it, for example, I feel pretty confident they won't, and so I've grown to accept that, and this leads to acceptance of the Spurs Way, which leads me to thinking they probably would pick Kispert to help Murray operate better.

    When we were competing for les, meaning we had Duncan, it seemed easier to reach for players, but we also were picking at the end of the draft, so not sure if that's the same as reaching when it's a second round pick. I suppose I'm ok with drafting high ceiling types in theory but I don't think of the Spurs as gambling. And yet, they picked Luka. This draft will be interesting on many levels. IF Pop is leaving, perhaps it will signal a more defined philosophy moving forward. We'll see.

  25. #1375
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I think these are two separate issues that don't really overlap. Especially because one is a front office decision (who to draft) and one is a coaching issue (who to play). If you draft Kispert, you do so thinking he's something close to the best player available. I don't think you draft Kispert with some ultimatum that players X, Y and Z can't play together or whatever

    I think we're in agreement that the current roster shouldn't be considered during the draft. For example, I wouldn't want the Spurs to avoid picking a point guard because they think that position is set. But if we're in agreement with that, it should cut the other way too. You don't avoid drafting players because of some hypothetical scenario where it leads Pop to making a bad lineup decision at some point down the line -- especially because Pop may not even be the coach.
    My disagreement comes from the idea that the Spurs "need shooting". That belief can only come from looking at the current roster. If we're just talking about the abstract, then there are plenty of places where shooting can come from as mentioned in this thread, finding shooters isn't even that hard. The only difficulty comes from getting them minutes and covering for their weaknesses. Practically, though, the team is going to have to find a way to convert their non-shooters into shooters, not just add shooting to their existing core. I think we agree on that, except...

    P.S.

    I think you need to update what you think of White and shooting threes. He wasn't a reluctant shooter this season. In fact, he basically reached Forbesian levels of letting three-pointers fly. Murray, Johnson, DeRozan, Poeltl ... yeah, those guys are an issue when it comes to shooting. I don't think White deserves to be in that group anymore.
    I honestly think he does. First, I don't actually think that those players can move out of that group. Both Murray and Johnson will shoot threes more next season and hopefully at a higher percentage. The issue with them is likely the same issue as with White. White is basically shooting to make him and Murray work. Yes, he had stretches where his off-dribble three was cooking too. But the kind of shots White was taking does nothing to take the offense from its iso, "hydra" track. White is basically doing subsistence shooting right now, shooting enough for him to justify being on the floor and to open up his game. If Murray and Johnson get to that level, sure, it'll be somewhat harder to help. But the offense will still lack structure and dynamism because they don't have off-ball threats. They'd just have guys who will shoot if they're open enough but will otherwise stand around waiting for their turn to drive into the teeth of the defense.

    White's a really good player and definitely my choice for player to most firmly keep in the starting lineup if he can stay healthy, though.

    Man, that'd really narrow things down. Finding stars is hard enough ... finding stars that aren't raw and have role player floors is like pinhead in a haystack hard. By that definition, the Spurs wouldn't have been able to draft Giannis, Booker, Jokic, Gobert, Siakam, Ginobili, Parker, etc because all those guys had floors lower than role player level.
    First, guys who are drafted at the end of the first or the second are way different than guys drafted at the top of the draft. I doubt a single Spurs fan would've had an issue with Samanic being drafted at 29. Seriously just Booker on your list was drafted in the lottery, and he clearly had a legit floor as a shooter anyway.

    Still, perhaps I didn't state the position clearly enough. It's not that guys can't be raw. It's that saying, "Who cares, if it's only a one-percent chance? If he pans out, he'll be a star", can't be used as the main justification to draft guys who don't even look like clear NBA players. Like most draftees are going to be somewhat raw. It's normal to develop. But most stars don't actually take years to show they're any good, and being an NBA-caliber role-player from day one doesn't mean that a player has less upside than a skinny, raw player who can't dribble. Your list highlights that there are multiple ways to develop into a star. There's no need to overemphasize a certain archetype.

    Plus hunting for stars through the draft comes from the archaic notion of "building through the draft". While you can certainly draft a star, you're more likely to acquire them through other means, and getting good players via the draft helps with that through multiple avenues, as I've mentioned before.

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