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  1. #1501
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    I've always thought that student athletes spend so much time on their sport, they should be given an additional 2-3 years academic scholarship to help earn a real degree in business, science, etc. You can't really do it with their schedule when they play.
    Yeah, it's a rigged system where the student athlete makes tons of money for the school, but is somehow supposed to compete on a level playing field in the classroom despite traveling nonstop for games & all of the other obligations that come with being a serious compe or for a high profile D1 ins ution. How's a player realistically supposed to stay focused on some generic low level class when they're being interviewed by Sports Illustrated and ESPN about how to beat Duke or UCLA leading up to and during March Madness? It's not a reasonable set up.

  2. #1502
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    Franz Wagner embracing life as a student-athlete
    by Jacob Kopnick
    October 24, 2019

    For many student athletes, taking the leap to college represents much of the same, if just on a bigger stage with more responsibilities.

    Wake up. Go to school. Go to practice. Complete homework. Eat a ridiculous amount of calories. Go to sleep. Repeat.

    Very few incoming college athletes buck this trend in the time between their high school days and their fledgling college careers.

    Franz Wagner is an exception.

    After finishing high school early, the guard played a year of professional ball for Alba Berlin in Germanyís Bundesliga. Now, heís back in a classroom, and the 6-foot-8 wing couldnít be happier about it.


    Any high school students reading this are almost certainly scratching their heads at the moment. How could someone ever possibly elect to go back to school, especially after getting a taste of a professional basketball playerís lifestyle?

    For Wagner, the answer to that question comes in the form of all of the resources Michigan has to offer, including allowing him to become a more well-rounded human being. With the perspective of having played professional basketball, Wagner now appreciates a life that does not solely focus on the sport.

    ď(Last year) I played the whole year of basketball, and I felt like it was really for the first couple of months, and I enjoyed it,Ē Wagner said. ďNot having to go to school because I finished high school a year early, and that was really cool for the first couple of months. But after a certain period of time, you feel like, at least I felt like, I needed something more. And thatís part of why I came here.Ē

    As a college freshman, Wagner enjoys spending time in the dorms and meeting new people who are not enmeshed in the world of basketball. Heís embracing his classes as well as expanding on his hobbies which include keeping up with politics and the media.

    It shows a wisdom beyond his years to recognize a desire to develop a well-rounded personality after having tasted life as a professional ó an experience that will perhaps lend itself handily to his play on the court as well.

    Coming in as a highly-touted freshman accompanied by a metric boatload of praise, many in the program are turning to Wagner to fill the void left by last seasonís top offensive weapons in Jordan Poole, Ignas Brazdeikis and Charles Matthews.


    The wingís basketball IQ, passing ability, length and defensive ability have excited many around Crisler Center, which makes the news of his recent injury so devastating for the program. Wagner fractured his wrist and will now miss the next four to six weeks.

    Itís a crucial blow for the Wolverines early in whatís sure-to-be a transformative season, but once Wagner steps back into the lineup, his talents will shine through. At least, thatís what associate coach Phil Martelli believes.

    ďI would just suggest that if anybodyís on the fence, if there are tickets available, get your tickets,Ē Martelli said, ďbecause youíre gonna want to see this kid play. Heís a guy that you come to practice every day and you leave and you just scratch your head. To be that age, to be that cerebral, to be that pure.

    ďAnd itís subtle. Itís like, how did he know to defend there? How did he know to go with the right hand? Heís, and I donít want to put a lot of pressure on him, but heís rain man. Heís a rain man in basketball. Heís a savant.Ē

    With such high praise and professional playing experience already under his belt, itís no wonder the freshman will play at the next level again one day. Whether it be in the NBA like his brother, former Michigan standout Moe Wagner, or back overseas, Franz Wagner will be a professional basketball player.

    So, why come to college in the states at all? Surely learning the American game as opposed to the European style played a role in the decision, but Wagner strongly asserts that becoming more well-rounded is a priority at this point in his life.


    ďI came here for a reason, and itís not just to play basketball at this time,Ē Wagner said. ďI really want to make the most of my time here. I donít want to think too much about the future and stuff like that, I want to live in the now right now, and I think thatís the only way to get better, really. If you think too much about the future, itís not gonna help you.Ē

    http://https://www.michigandaily.com/mens-basketball/franz-wagner-embracing-life-student-athlete/

    Dude finished High School a year early and played a year of pro ball and sounds like a Popovich wet dream. He is definitely not taking Rocks for Jocks (actual name of a class at Penn State in the early 80s). This makes me like him even more.

  3. #1503
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    “And it’s subtle. It’s like, how did he know to defend there? How did he know to go with the right hand? He’s, and I don’t want to put a lot of pressure on him, but he’s rain man. He’s a rain man in basketball. He’s a savant.”
    Love this as a scouting report!

  4. #1504
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    Who out of this group is 6'7" or taller?

    I'll compile a list if I have to but drafting another swingman or a big wing is vital. We have enough guards and combo guards, and unless Moody falls to us, I'd hope they avoid drafting another (unless they move some ancillary guys for more draft compensation).

    I know everyone is against this thinking, but the team's needs dictate it. Especially cause they can possibly plug some (short-term) gaps with their cap space.
    Such flawed thinking when none are foundational building blocks. The best one is injury prone (White), the second best one has already tore an ACL (Murray), the third best one has been replacement player caliber so far (Walker IV) and the fourth best one has yet to prove he's an NBA player (Jones).

    Before you mention Johnson and Vassell, they're wings, not guards.

  5. #1505
    Peace! bluebellmaniac's Avatar
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    Franz Wagner embracing life as a student-athlete
    by Jacob Kopnick
    October 24, 2019

    For many student athletes, taking the leap to college represents much of the same, if just on a bigger stage with more responsibilities.

    Wake up. Go to school. Go to practice. Complete homework. Eat a ridiculous amount of calories. Go to sleep. Repeat.

    Very few incoming college athletes buck this trend in the time between their high school days and their fledgling college careers.

    Franz Wagner is an exception.

    After finishing high school early, the guard played a year of professional ball for Alba Berlin in Germanyís Bundesliga. Now, heís back in a classroom, and the 6-foot-8 wing couldnít be happier about it.


    Any high school students reading this are almost certainly scratching their heads at the moment. How could someone ever possibly elect to go back to school, especially after getting a taste of a professional basketball playerís lifestyle?

    For Wagner, the answer to that question comes in the form of all of the resources Michigan has to offer, including allowing him to become a more well-rounded human being. With the perspective of having played professional basketball, Wagner now appreciates a life that does not solely focus on the sport.

    ď(Last year) I played the whole year of basketball, and I felt like it was really for the first couple of months, and I enjoyed it,Ē Wagner said. ďNot having to go to school because I finished high school a year early, and that was really cool for the first couple of months. But after a certain period of time, you feel like, at least I felt like, I needed something more. And thatís part of why I came here.Ē

    As a college freshman, Wagner enjoys spending time in the dorms and meeting new people who are not enmeshed in the world of basketball. Heís embracing his classes as well as expanding on his hobbies which include keeping up with politics and the media.

    It shows a wisdom beyond his years to recognize a desire to develop a well-rounded personality after having tasted life as a professional ó an experience that will perhaps lend itself handily to his play on the court as well.

    Coming in as a highly-touted freshman accompanied by a metric boatload of praise, many in the program are turning to Wagner to fill the void left by last seasonís top offensive weapons in Jordan Poole, Ignas Brazdeikis and Charles Matthews.


    The wingís basketball IQ, passing ability, length and defensive ability have excited many around Crisler Center, which makes the news of his recent injury so devastating for the program. Wagner fractured his wrist and will now miss the next four to six weeks.

    Itís a crucial blow for the Wolverines early in whatís sure-to-be a transformative season, but once Wagner steps back into the lineup, his talents will shine through. At least, thatís what associate coach Phil Martelli believes.

    ďI would just suggest that if anybodyís on the fence, if there are tickets available, get your tickets,Ē Martelli said, ďbecause youíre gonna want to see this kid play. Heís a guy that you come to practice every day and you leave and you just scratch your head. To be that age, to be that cerebral, to be that pure.

    ďAnd itís subtle. Itís like, how did he know to defend there? How did he know to go with the right hand? Heís, and I donít want to put a lot of pressure on him, but heís rain man. Heís a rain man in basketball. Heís a savant.Ē

    With such high praise and professional playing experience already under his belt, itís no wonder the freshman will play at the next level again one day. Whether it be in the NBA like his brother, former Michigan standout Moe Wagner, or back overseas, Franz Wagner will be a professional basketball player.

    So, why come to college in the states at all? Surely learning the American game as opposed to the European style played a role in the decision, but Wagner strongly asserts that becoming more well-rounded is a priority at this point in his life.


    ďI came here for a reason, and itís not just to play basketball at this time,Ē Wagner said. ďI really want to make the most of my time here. I donít want to think too much about the future and stuff like that, I want to live in the now right now, and I think thatís the only way to get better, really. If you think too much about the future, itís not gonna help you.Ē

    http://https://www.michigandaily.com/mens-basketball/franz-wagner-embracing-life-student-athlete/

    Dude finished High School a year early and played a year of pro ball and sounds like a Popovich wet dream. He is definitely not taking Rocks for Jocks (actual name of a class at Penn State in the early 80s). This makes me like him even more.
    tl; dr

    What it say?

  6. #1506
    Believe. PrimeMinister's Avatar
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    Wanted to get back in school after playing a year of pro ball in Germany, was excited for the challenge of academics at Michigan.

    coaches say he is incredibly cerebral, instinctual, calls his knowledge of the game “head scratching” in a, “how does he know that at his age” kind of way.

    kinda reminds me of vassells profile before the draft.

  7. #1507
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    Who out of this group is 6'7" or taller?

    I'll compile a list if I have to but drafting another swingman or a big wing is vital. We have enough guards and combo guards, and unless Moody falls to us, I'd hope they avoid drafting another (unless they move some ancillary guys for more draft compensation).

    I know everyone is against this thinking, but the team's needs dictate it. Especially cause they can possibly plug some (short-term) gaps with their cap space.
    I'm kinda feeling the same way... outside of the top 5 Wagner and Moody are next on my list... I prefer Wagner because of size and skill but Moody's upside is considerable. If we could trade some of our other wings to get a 2nd pick I'd love to have both and think they'd be better young building blocks than what we have currently on the roster.

  8. #1508
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    Wanted to get back in school after playing a year of pro ball in Germany, was excited for the challenge of academics at Michigan.

    coaches say he is incredibly cerebral, instinctual, calls his knowledge of the game “head scratching” in a, “how does he know that at his age” kind of way.

    kinda reminds me of vassells profile before the draft.
    Good call: http://www.tankathon.com/players/com...-devin-vassell

  9. #1509
    Veteran J_Paco's Avatar
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    Such flawed thinking when none are foundational building blocks. The best one is injury prone (White), the second best one has already tore an ACL (Murray), the third best one has been replacement player caliber so far (Walker IV) and the fourth best one has yet to prove he's an NBA player (Jones).

    Before you mention Johnson and Vassell, they're wings, not guards.
    I clearly stated it was an "unpopular opinion," but the team lacks a starting caliber or "foundational piece" at SF & PF too.

    Eventually, those two spots must be addressed (they could be Vassell or Samanic if either takes a big leap) and ignoring (to draft BPA @ guard) them will only prolong the rebuilding process.

    And I clearly have said that Moody is an exception to my thinking - he'd be a higher pick in a "weaker" class but could conceivably "fall" too the Spurs - and drafting him would be an upgrade over any of our current crop.

  10. #1510
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    I clearly stated it was an "unpopular opinion," but the team lacks a starting caliber or "foundational piece" at SF & PF too.

    Eventually, those two spots must be addressed (they could be Vassell or Samanic if either takes a big leap) and ignoring (to draft BPA @ guard) them will only prolong the rebuilding process.

    And I clearly have said that Moody is an exception to my thinking - he'd be a higher pick in a "weaker" class but could conceivably "fall" too the Spurs - and drafting him would be an upgrade over any of our current crop.
    Johnson and Vassell both have starting potential at "SF" and there's probably a good chance of them acquiring Markkanen, a starting caliber "PF", but obviously finding a foundational big wing is far more difficult than doing so with a guard or wing.

    At any rate, the biggest need isn't a position, it's high end talent period and the lack of it is the biggest thing prolonging the rebuilding process. If, for example, they think the only player available at 12 with above average starter potential is a guard, they shouldn't hesitate to select them.

  11. #1511
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Franz Wagner embracing life as a student-athlete
    by Jacob Kopnick
    October 24, 2019

    For many student athletes, taking the leap to college represents much of the same, if just on a bigger stage with more responsibilities.

    Wake up. Go to school. Go to practice. Complete homework. Eat a ridiculous amount of calories. Go to sleep. Repeat.

    Very few incoming college athletes buck this trend in the time between their high school days and their fledgling college careers.

    Franz Wagner is an exception.

    After finishing high school early, the guard played a year of professional ball for Alba Berlin in Germanyís Bundesliga. Now, heís back in a classroom, and the 6-foot-8 wing couldnít be happier about it.


    Any high school students reading this are almost certainly scratching their heads at the moment. How could someone ever possibly elect to go back to school, especially after getting a taste of a professional basketball playerís lifestyle?

    For Wagner, the answer to that question comes in the form of all of the resources Michigan has to offer, including allowing him to become a more well-rounded human being. With the perspective of having played professional basketball, Wagner now appreciates a life that does not solely focus on the sport.

    ď(Last year) I played the whole year of basketball, and I felt like it was really for the first couple of months, and I enjoyed it,Ē Wagner said. ďNot having to go to school because I finished high school a year early, and that was really cool for the first couple of months. But after a certain period of time, you feel like, at least I felt like, I needed something more. And thatís part of why I came here.Ē

    As a college freshman, Wagner enjoys spending time in the dorms and meeting new people who are not enmeshed in the world of basketball. Heís embracing his classes as well as expanding on his hobbies which include keeping up with politics and the media.

    It shows a wisdom beyond his years to recognize a desire to develop a well-rounded personality after having tasted life as a professional ó an experience that will perhaps lend itself handily to his play on the court as well.

    Coming in as a highly-touted freshman accompanied by a metric boatload of praise, many in the program are turning to Wagner to fill the void left by last seasonís top offensive weapons in Jordan Poole, Ignas Brazdeikis and Charles Matthews.


    The wingís basketball IQ, passing ability, length and defensive ability have excited many around Crisler Center, which makes the news of his recent injury so devastating for the program. Wagner fractured his wrist and will now miss the next four to six weeks.

    Itís a crucial blow for the Wolverines early in whatís sure-to-be a transformative season, but once Wagner steps back into the lineup, his talents will shine through. At least, thatís what associate coach Phil Martelli believes.

    ďI would just suggest that if anybodyís on the fence, if there are tickets available, get your tickets,Ē Martelli said, ďbecause youíre gonna want to see this kid play. Heís a guy that you come to practice every day and you leave and you just scratch your head. To be that age, to be that cerebral, to be that pure.

    ďAnd itís subtle. Itís like, how did he know to defend there? How did he know to go with the right hand? Heís, and I donít want to put a lot of pressure on him, but heís rain man. Heís a rain man in basketball. Heís a savant.Ē

    With such high praise and professional playing experience already under his belt, itís no wonder the freshman will play at the next level again one day. Whether it be in the NBA like his brother, former Michigan standout Moe Wagner, or back overseas, Franz Wagner will be a professional basketball player.

    So, why come to college in the states at all? Surely learning the American game as opposed to the European style played a role in the decision, but Wagner strongly asserts that becoming more well-rounded is a priority at this point in his life.


    ďI came here for a reason, and itís not just to play basketball at this time,Ē Wagner said. ďI really want to make the most of my time here. I donít want to think too much about the future and stuff like that, I want to live in the now right now, and I think thatís the only way to get better, really. If you think too much about the future, itís not gonna help you.Ē

    http://https://www.michigandaily.com/mens-basketball/franz-wagner-embracing-life-student-athlete/

    Dude finished High School a year early and played a year of pro ball and sounds like a Popovich wet dream. He is definitely not taking Rocks for Jocks (actual name of a class at Penn State in the early 80s). This makes me like him even more.
    Love the article. Almost sounding too good to be true at this point, so I'll set my expectations of the Spurs picking someone else and just hope they turn out good.

  12. #1512
    "The ball don't lie." dbestpro's Avatar
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    Johnson and Vassell both have starting potential at "SF" and there's probably a good chance of them acquiring Markkanen, a starting caliber "PF", but obviously finding a foundational big wing is far more difficult than doing so with a guard or wing.

    At any rate, the biggest need isn't a position, it's high end talent period and the lack of it is the biggest thing prolonging the rebuilding process. If, for example, they think the only player available at 12 with above average starter potential is a guard, they shouldn't hesitate to select them.
    If this the case then they need to dump the guards on this team now. Send em out for draft picks.

  13. #1513
    Veteran J_Paco's Avatar
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    Johnson and Vassell both have starting potential at "SF" and there's probably a good chance of them acquiring Markkanen, a starting caliber "PF", but obviously finding a foundational big wing is far more difficult than doing so with a guard or wing.

    At any rate, the biggest need isn't a position, it's high end talent period and the lack of it is the biggest thing prolonging the rebuilding process. If, for example, they think the only player available at 12 with above average starter potential is a guard, they shouldn't hesitate to select them.
    I think Johnsom would be best served being a back up SF/SG where his lack of height and length aren't as huge a detriment & we're in full agreement about Vassell. Although, having more options and depth at those positions especially at PF is needed.

    I would be highly, highly disappointed if they waste cap space on a terrible defender that is a blackhole on offense like Lauri. He should be their plan C or D and shouldn't be anywhere near a high priority, IMO.

    And of course they're in desperate need of high - end talent, but that alone isn't the issue. They need a better constructed and balanced roster that doesn't have two swingmen starting, but forced out of position (hurting their offense and defense) to do so.

    Everything will hinge on either them moving up - somehow - or a talent falling to their spot. I would prefer that guy being a true SF, combo forward or a power forward, but a talent like Moody can't be past up if it's him either. Which could have the ripple effect of moving one or more of Johnson, Walker IV or White to balance things out.

    I'm not married to nearly anyone on our current roster, minus Vassell since I like his untapped potential & two - way ability, but see the holes at SF & PF as the biggest concerns currently. High - end talent & volume three - pointing shooting coming in 2nd and 3rd, but clearly need to be addressed too.
    Last edited by J_Paco; 05-30-2021 at 07:39 PM.

  14. #1514
    Veteran The Truth #6's Avatar
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    Johnson and Vassell both have starting potential at "SF" and there's probably a good chance of them acquiring Markkanen, a starting caliber "PF", but obviously finding a foundational big wing is far more difficult than doing so with a guard or wing.

    At any rate, the biggest need isn't a position, it's high end talent period and the lack of it is the biggest thing prolonging the rebuilding process. If, for example, they think the only player available at 12 with above average starter potential is a guard, they shouldn't hesitate to select them.


    I agree in theory. But in picking at 12 in a draft with nothing but question marks after around pick 5, it's hard to say who the BPA is. Mock drafts are all over the place, wouldn't you agree?

  15. #1515
    D up! exstatic's Avatar
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    [/B]

    I agree in theory. But in picking at 12 in a draft with nothing but question marks after around pick 5, it's hard to say who the BPA is. Mock drafts are all over the place, wouldn't you agree?
    It’s not hard for the Spurs. They have a complete 60 player draft board set up to go on draft day every year, They simply draft the highest remaining player left on their board. There’s no arguing or wrangling on draft day. That all took place earlier, setting up the board.

  16. #1516
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    I think Johnsom would be best served being a back up SF/SG where his lack of height and length aren't as huge a detriment & we're in full agreement about Vassell. Although, having more options and depth at those positions especially at PF is needed.

    I would be highly, highly disappointed if they waste cap space on a terrible defender that is a blackhole on offense like Lauri. He should be their plan C or D and shouldn't be anywhere near a high priority, IMO.

    And of course they're in desperate need of high - end talent, but that alone isn't the issue. They need a better constructed and balanced roster that doesn't have two swingmen starting, but forced out of position (hurting their offense and defense) to do so.

    Everything will hinge on either them moving up - somehow - or a talent falling to their spot. I would prefer that guy being a true SF, combo forward or a power forward, but a talent like Moody can't be past up if it's him either. Which could have the ripple effect of moving one or more of Johnson, Walker IV or White to balance things out.

    I'm not married to nearly anyone on our current roster, minus Vassell since I like his untapped potential & two - way ability, but see the holes at SF & PF as the biggest concerns currently. High - end talent & volume three - pointing shooting coming in 2nd and 3rd, but clearly need to be addressed too.
    In this league now, players with Johnson's combination of build and relatively rudimentary ball skills play 3 and small ball 4.

    I'm not a Markkanen fan and would prefer Collins, but he'd fit with what they're trying to do and would fill a few needs, so I'd get it.

    Of course high end talent isn't the only issue, but the focus draft wise should be more on trying to ac ulate that as opposed to filling a positional need. The latter can come in free agency and/or trade (yeah right).


    [/B]

    I agree in theory. But in picking at 12 in a draft with nothing but question marks after around pick 5, it's hard to say who the BPA is. Mock drafts are all over the place, wouldn't you agree?
    I would. They always are, especially this far in advance. At 12, especially in a draft like this, BPA will be like picking a needle out of a haystack.

  17. #1517
    My Girl's a Hooper keithington1's Avatar
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    Garuba can’t shoot great yet, but he looks like a mixture of Bam and Kawhi. He would alllow the spurs to play big and he could maybe play 3/4/5 potentially. Spurs would have to draft a second round shooter and sign a shooter.

  18. #1518
    Believe.
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    Garuba can’t shoot great yet, but he looks like a mixture of Bam and Kawhi. He would alllow the spurs to play big and he could maybe play 3/4/5 potentially. Spurs would have to draft a second round shooter and sign a shooter.
    A lot of people are saying he is Luc Mbah a Moute. Hard to see him averaging more than 10 ppg in the NBA. But defensively he has the best chance to be the ideal playoff defender, I just don't see what value it has for our team.

  19. #1519
    D up! exstatic's Avatar
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    A lot of people are saying he is Luc Mbah a Moute. Hard to see him averaging more than 10 ppg in the NBA. But defensively he has the best chance to be the ideal playoff defender, I just don't see what value it has for our team.
    Especially with a lottery pick.

    Guys like him ‘wow’ in Europe, but get over here, and can’t jump over everyone, and don’t have a solid basketball skill set to fall back on, and they bust.

  20. #1520
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    It’s not hard for the Spurs. They have a complete 60 player draft board set up to go on draft day every year, They simply draft the highest remaining player left on their board. There’s no arguing or wrangling on draft day. That all took place earlier, setting up the board.
    Oh, I see what you’re saying as far as the process on draft day. My point is related to the inherent challenges in finding a star/foundational piece when picking at 12 in this draft. In other words, the various factors and processes that go into making that list.

  21. #1521
    Believe. Degoat's Avatar
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    I’m surprised more people aren’t high on Ziaire Willams, he’s growing on me. He has a ton of potential

  22. #1522
    Veteran The Truth #6's Avatar
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    I’m surprised more people aren’t high on Ziaire Willams, he’s growing on me. He has a ton of potential
    He was discussed a few weeks ago. I got intrigued as well, but I think the consensus was he’d be a reach at 12, and has underwhelmed, which is why he’s dropping.

  23. #1523
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    Iím surprised more people arenít high on Ziaire Willams, heís growing on me. He has a ton of potential
    There was a case last year for Vassell (fundamentally sound on defense, top option on a winning team, good shooter from 3) even if I had distaste drafting him. Ziaire literally has nothing going for him, advance metrics and all. Can't remember a prospect who shoots airballs as much as he does. Biggest bust wherever he's drafted, IMO.

  24. #1524
    Believe. Degoat's Avatar
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    There was a case last year for Vassell (fundamentally sound on defense, top option on a winning team, good shooter from 3) even if I had distaste drafting him. Ziaire literally has nothing going for him, advance metrics and all. Can't remember a prospect who shoots airballs as much as he does. Biggest bust wherever he's drafted, IMO.
    His stats arent very impressive and his shooting percentage is terrible but his shooting mechanics are there, he’s got really good form, he’s 6 foot 8 inches, has length, looks comfortable from the midrange & the 3, I’m not saying he’s who we should get but he’s intriguing imo I think he’s a higher ceiling/ low floor player he’s either gonna be good or a bust lol

  25. #1525
    Believe. Degoat's Avatar
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    He was discussed a few weeks ago. I got intrigued as well, but I think the consensus was he’d be a reach at 12, and has underwhelmed, which is why he’s dropping.
    Yeah, I’m just hoping the spurs get some size in this draft with some potential shooting. It’s tough because outside of the top 6 players or so you could make an argument for players 7-20 at any spot in the top 20 imo

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