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  1. #1526
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    I'd love to see a betting line on something like Jonathan Kuminga vs Franz Wagner in three years. We all see the athletic superiority of Kuminga, but is an inefficient but aggressive year in the G League at age 18 more impressive than an efficient winning year at Michigan at age 19? That can be a tough call sometimes. Luka Doncic will never match Lonnie Walker's pure athleticism, but it's incredibly unlikely Lonnie ever becomes a better player than Luka, and it wouldn't surprise at all if Wagner turns out to be the more useful player on a future winning NBA roster.

  2. #1527
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    I'd love to see a betting line on something like Jonathan Kuminga vs Franz Wagner in three years. We all see the athletic superiority of Kuminga, but is an inefficient but aggressive year in the G League at age 18 more impressive than an efficient winning year at Michigan at age 19? That can be a tough call sometimes. Luka Doncic will never match Lonnie Walker's pure athleticism, but it's incredibly unlikely Lonnie ever becomes a better player than Luka, and it wouldn't surprise at all if Wagner turns out to be the more useful player on a future winning NBA roster.
    I see it in a similar way. I've got Wagner #6 on my board but, I think he has a real chance to be special.

  3. #1528
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    I'd love to see a betting line on something like Jonathan Kuminga vs Franz Wagner in three years. We all see the athletic superiority of Kuminga, but is an inefficient but aggressive year in the G League at age 18 more impressive than an efficient winning year at Michigan at age 19? That can be a tough call sometimes. Luka Doncic will never match Lonnie Walker's pure athleticism, but it's incredibly unlikely Lonnie ever becomes a better player than Luka, and it wouldn't surprise at all if Wagner turns out to be the more useful player on a future winning NBA roster.
    Wagner is an interesting one for me. I wonder whether his unique feel for the game and length translate to consistent success at the NBA level? I think he'll have to become a great shooter, not just an average or good one, to stick in the league.

    I worry that his length, Defensive I.Q and hustle allow him to mask deficiencies and get away with plays that with the speed and strength of NBA athletes, he just won't have.

    At worst, I see him as a tweener and one that is unable to create mismatches on either end of the floor.

    I hope I'm wrong and it works out for him. I'm never rooting against anyone and he seems like a great kid too.

  4. #1529
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Wagner is an interesting one for me. I wonder whether his unique feel for the game and length translate to consistent success at the NBA level? I think he'll have to become a great shooter, not just an average or good one, to stick in the league.

    I worry that his length, Defensive I.Q and hustle allow him to mask deficiencies and get away with plays that with the speed and strength of NBA athletes, he just won't have.

    At worst, I see him as a tweener and one that is unable to create mismatches on either end of the floor.

    I hope I'm wrong and it works out for him. I'm never rooting against anyone and he seems like a great kid too.
    As opposed to a prospect showcasing all the athleticism in the world but having no IQ on either end? Yeah, I'll take Franz 10 out of 10. We've seen this story happen with Lonnie already. Athletic players don't simply develop good instincts and IQ. White fits your description coming out of college and so far, he's 10 times the defender and offensive player Lonnie is. The league is moving towards more IQ oriented players. I don't remember the last athletic prospect who all of a sudden developed smarts out of thin air. Franz literally hounds guards on defense and made NBA projected players like Scottie and Trendon Watford look silly. I don't know what more he needs to show other than maybe change his skin color, so people can assume he's athletic.

  5. #1530
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    I'd love to see a betting line on something like Jonathan Kuminga vs Franz Wagner in three years.
    I'd probably parlay the under on both.

  6. #1531
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    Come on we all know Universities create some of these programs just to make it so easy anyone can get a degree but not a decent job with the degree. It would be nice that Universities would start doing what a lot of Biology departments do as to how many of there students get accepted to Medical School - so you could see up front how many people get jobs with the degree and could easily find the pay scale.

    Had a good friend who told me if I ever marry someone find out how much debt they have as his soon to be wife failed to tell him she owed over 100 hundred thousand dollars from Harvard. I said well that shouldnít be to bad she must be banking with a degree from a prestigious school like Harvard. He was like no her degree was in sociology- she making 30 grand.
    That's really surprising. One of the luxuries of going to these IVY league schools is that you can major in anything and still get a great job on Wall Street. There are a lot of people from these schools with cookie cutting degrees but still end up in investment banking.

  7. #1532
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    "Franz won't be able to guard players in the NBA because uhhhh he ummm he just can't, period. He's not athletic enough! For sure he isn't. Because he just isn't."

  8. #1533
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    As opposed to a prospect showcasing all the athleticism in the world but having no IQ on either end? Yeah, I'll take Franz 10 out of 10. We've seen this story happen with Lonnie already. Athletic players don't simply develop good instincts and IQ. White fits your description coming out of college and so far, he's 10 times the defender and offensive player Lonnie is. The league is moving towards more IQ oriented players. I don't remember the last athletic prospect who all of a sudden developed smarts out of thin air. Franz literally hounds guards on defense and made NBA projected players like Scottie and Trendon Watford look silly. I don't know what more he needs to show other than maybe change his skin color, so people can assume he's athletic.
    White's case is a unique one and don't think that's a fair comparison to Franz. White could shoot coming out of college, people were just concerned about his age more than anything else.
    White has more in common with Duarte than Wagner.

    I'm not all about the "athleticism" but I do worry about what role our draft picks will play and the road map ahead to maximize their potential.

    At best what do you think Franz will become? What about at worst? How does his game project? Are you calling him an elite defender at the NBA level already? If not, do you think he'll become one?
    What's his position?

    All things need to be weighed up equally.

    I made my case for the doubts. You made yours for the positives.
    A lot of scouts are with you btw.

    Not playing the role of contrarian, just think he reminds me a little of Garuba (less defense, better Offensive version). IMHO, not sure I want to take that at #12.

  9. #1534
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    White's case is a unique one and don't think that's a fair comparison to Franz. White could shoot coming out of college, people were just concerned about his age more than anything else.
    White has more in common with Duarte than Wagner.

    I'm not all about the "athleticism" but I do worry about what role our draft picks will play and the road map ahead to maximize their potential.

    At best what do you think Franz will become? What about at worst? How does his game project? Are you calling him an elite defender at the NBA level already? If not, do you think he'll become one?
    What's his position?

    All things need to be weighed up equally.

    I made my case for the doubts. You made yours for the positives.
    A lot of scouts are with you btw.

    Not playing the role of contrarian, just think he reminds me a little of Garuba (less defense, better Offensive version). IMHO, not sure I want to take that at #12.
    Let me explain why the mere mention of Franz being unathletic irks me: People use the word "unathletic" more liberally for players who can't do a powerful dunk. I remember Obi Toppin and people were in awe at how athletic he was, yet it was "athletic" in an area where it mattered least: a dunk that is worth 2 points. Obi was unathletic in his inability to move laterally, yet people are afraid to push the button for that word because of his high flying ability. All the while, he is giving up 10+ points on the defensive end because he is consistently out of position or blown by his man for an easy 2. Contrast that with a guy like Franz, who actually has shown ability to keep up with numerous types of players, including speedy ones, yet he is the one questioned most for his ability to guard NBA players. Why? We hold these strange stereotypes to players who can pull off powerful dunks. That's why. Potential is tied to those powerful dunks even though the top NBA players these days are still extremely effective without needing to pull off acrobatic dunks.

    Wherever Franz goes, he will be useful right away as a utility player in the mold of someone like Xavier Tillman. I am not calling him an elite NBA defender off the bat, I don't need to make extreme claims. All I know is, I love the way he plays and think he would benefit a lot from being drafted by the Spurs. The Spurs work well with the type of canvas (i.e. Kawhi, White, Vassell) Franz has, rather than a blank one like Lonnie. I imagine they'll tailor him to be a role player first, to which people will freak out about like they usually do around here because they're impatient, and then develop his skills year by year. I think he has a nice template, given that he has shown an ability to score from everywhere (3's, mid-range, near the rim), even flashed a turnaround J from mid-range several times. Somehow, Franz is penalized for buying in to his coach's game plan and was willing to share the ball more even though he was clearly projected to go to the NBA and could raise his stock simply by calling his number more... but he didn't because he wanted to play the right way. The best in the game have high processing speeds (able to think on their feet or see a play right before it happens), and he has that. Anyway, wherever he is drafted he will be easy to root for, as he has the style of play I enjoy: selfless, smart, and ballsy.

  10. #1535
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    As opposed to a prospect showcasing all the athleticism in the world but having no IQ on either end? Yeah, I'll take Franz 10 out of 10. We've seen this story happen with Lonnie already. Athletic players don't simply develop good instincts and IQ. White fits your description coming out of college and so far, he's 10 times the defender and offensive player Lonnie is. The league is moving towards more IQ oriented players. I don't remember the last athletic prospect who all of a sudden developed smarts out of thin air. Franz literally hounds guards on defense and made NBA projected players like Scottie and Trendon Watford look silly. I don't know what more he needs to show other than maybe change his skin color, so people can assume he's athletic.
    This!

  11. #1536
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    Franz Wagner- at best Luka Doncic with much better D

    At worst Tom Gugliotta

    probably somewhere in between but in the upper half of that range

  12. #1537
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    Franz Wagner- at best Luka Doncic with much better D

    At worst Tom Gugliotta

    probably somewhere in between but in the upper half of that range

    For me,

    At best: Taller Manu, with better defense and less flopping

    Likely: Taller Goran Dragic, with better defense

    At worst: A cross between Andre Iguodala and Robert Covington

    Franz has a very "Euro" style to his game, in a good way.

  13. #1538
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    Nothing eye-popping about the athleticism in these plays.

    Simple, get- -done layups and winning plays like these are a lost art, or are underappreciated these days.

  14. #1539
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    Yeah, Iím just hoping the spurs get some size in this draft with some potential shooting. Itís tough because outside of the top 6 players or so you could make an argument for players 7-20 at any spot in the top 20 imo
    If you draft someone with size, great you can try to teach them to shoot better, if you draft for shooting, chances are you don't get size. If you can get size and shooting you're probably drafting in the top 10. Unfortunately the spurs probably draft at 12. Maybe we beat the odds and land a top 4 pick, but those are some long odds.

  15. #1540
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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  16. #1541
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    Let me explain why the mere mention of Franz being unathletic irks me: People use the word "unathletic" more liberally for players who can't do a powerful dunk. I remember Obi Toppin and people were in awe at how athletic he was, yet it was "athletic" in an area where it mattered least: a dunk that is worth 2 points. Obi was unathletic in his inability to move laterally, yet people are afraid to push the button for that word because of his high flying ability. All the while, he is giving up 10+ points on the defensive end because he is consistently out of position or blown by his man for an easy 2. Contrast that with a guy like Franz, who actually has shown ability to keep up with numerous types of players, including speedy ones, yet he is the one questioned most for his ability to guard NBA players. Why? We hold these strange stereotypes to players who can pull off powerful dunks. That's why. Potential is tied to those powerful dunks even though the top NBA players these days are still extremely effective without needing to pull off acrobatic dunks.

    Wherever Franz goes, he will be useful right away as a utility player in the mold of someone like Xavier Tillman. I am not calling him an elite NBA defender off the bat, I don't need to make extreme claims. All I know is, I love the way he plays and think he would benefit a lot from being drafted by the Spurs. The Spurs work well with the type of canvas (i.e. Kawhi, White, Vassell) Franz has, rather than a blank one like Lonnie. I imagine they'll tailor him to be a role player first, to which people will freak out about like they usually do around here because they're impatient, and then develop his skills year by year. I think he has a nice template, given that he has shown an ability to score from everywhere (3's, mid-range, near the rim), even flashed a turnaround J from mid-range several times. Somehow, Franz is penalized for buying in to his coach's game plan and was willing to share the ball more even though he was clearly projected to go to the NBA and could raise his stock simply by calling his number more... but he didn't because he wanted to play the right way. The best in the game have high processing speeds (able to think on their feet or see a play right before it happens), and he has that. Anyway, wherever he is drafted he will be easy to root for, as he has the style of play I enjoy: selfless, smart, and ballsy.
    I never called him un-athletic or a subpar athlete though. Seems you have an issue with people that did or do.
    I would grade him overall as a solid athlete (above average, bordering to good) taking into account all the various measurables, metrics and projectables we have access to so far.
    (Perhaps the combine sheds some more light on this).

    Even in some of those clips you posted, I think he will get burnt by a different class of athlete or Offensive talent.

    Everyone we pick at #12 is a project of some description and will start their careers as a role player first.

    Franz seems like a jack-of-all trades type. Lots to work with there.
    The question then is do any of those skills become good enough to see consistent NBA minutes as he matures? For me, if you're buying him becoming a great shooter, the path seems much clearer.

    I agree with the processing speed part. The guy can't self create, drive left, shoot consistently from range or finish through the trees yet though. Those traits as well as what I've mentioned in previous posts, give me pause.

  17. #1542
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    "I worry that his length, Defensive I.Q and hustle allow him to mask deficiencies and get away with plays that with the speed and strength of NBA athletes, he just won't have."

    I don't know. This sentence seemed like you were implying he was unathletic, or not athletic enough.

    This "different class of athlete/ offensive talent" just seems made-up to me. Like, you can pretty much use that line for all prospects in the draft but it's just convenient to use for Franz because again, I don't know why. Franz defends speedy guards as well as or better than almost every prospect (who are his size). Why is that phrase not used for someone like Barnes? , Jalen Johnson is actually pretty bad on defense yet you seem to have no motive to use that line for him. To each his own.

  18. #1543
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    "Can't self-create"

  19. #1544
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    Simple, get- -done layups and winning plays like these are a lost art, or are underappreciated these days.
    This.

  20. #1545
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    A lot arguing over a guy who is likely gone by our pick.

  21. #1546
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    "I worry that his length, Defensive I.Q and hustle allow him to mask deficiencies and get away with plays that with the speed and strength of NBA athletes, he just won't have."

    I don't know. This sentence seemed like you were implying he was unathletic, or not athletic enough.


    This "different class of athlete/ offensive talent" just seems made-up to me. Like, you can pretty much use that line for all prospects in the draft but it's just convenient to use for Franz because again, I don't know why. Franz defends speedy guards as well as or better than almost every prospect (who are his size). Why is that phrase not used for someone like Barnes? , Jalen Johnson is actually pretty bad on defense yet you seem to have no motive to use that line for him. To each his own.
    Aren't we talking about Franz? Jalen Johnson? Not sure I've ever discussed him in any of my posts.

    Here's a pretty complimentary scouting report on Franz but notice the positive/negative Athletic concerns:

    https://rollcallsportsnet.com/franz-...outing-report/

    Tools and Movement Skills
    large hips / wide shoulders / room to add weight to frame

    • fluid athlete overall / very mobile / sprinted the floor well / appeared to be well-conditioned
    • decent footspeed / pretty light on feet / sure-footed / moved well laterally / large strides
    • decent vertical / relatively quick load-ups / generally quick off the floor / strong off of two feet / fluid off of either foot


    • good strength / sturdy stance
    • quick, reactive hands / pretty strong hands


    • middling first-step / not particularly fast overall
    • lacking a bit of flexibility / somewhat stiff posture
    I agree with the bolded type. It's a worry for me.

    If you can't shoot consistently, you will have difficulty with shot creation without a "Ben Simmons/Giannis A." athletic profile at the NBA level.

    Manu's threat of the 3 opens up his entire game, even at this stage late in his career.
    You are talking about a HOF guard too bud, an outlier all things considered.

    We can disagree on this one Dejounte. Thanks for the effort with the clips though.

  22. #1547
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    A lot arguing over a guy who is likely gone by our pick.
    Literally nothing else Spurs-related to talk about. Or would you rather we spam the board with useless troll like that idiot Ghazi? Honestly, I'm 100% prepared for Franz to be gone or maybe even passed up by the Spurs. I like other guys too: Sengun, Bouk, Moody, Mann, Giddey, etc.

  23. #1548
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    I'm bought tbh, trade up for this guy

  24. #1549
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    One of the other intriguing things about Wagner is his really low usage rate, which was just under 20%, lower than any other potential lottery pick. To get as much accomplished as he does, and to post such positive offensive metrics with a usage rate that low is impressive. His assist-to-turnover ratio improved dramatically between years 1 and 2 at Michigan-- which is a great sign-- and his passing & ballhandling look good, but will he ever become a lead option on offense, or he is more of a glue guy that fits & helps any system?

  25. #1550
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    For me,

    At best: Taller Manu, with better defense and less flopping

    Likely: Taller Goran Dragic, with better defense

    At worst: A cross between Andre Iguodala and Robert Covington

    Franz has a very "Euro" style to his game, in a good way.
    Your comps are pretty athletic guards. Deni Avdija is the most mentioned one , from articles citing how NBA execs sees him.

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