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  1. #51
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    It doesn't really matter if minorities support it or not. The point of cons utionally protected rights is that you can't take them away by tricking a majority of people into supporting efforts to take them away, whether from themselves or others.

    Do voter ID laws affect voter turnout? Yes. Does not having ID laws reduce election integrity? Not to any functional extent. Is the effect of the reduced election integrity greater than the effect of the reduced turnout? Not even close. Therefore, the laws should should be struck down. Making it harder to vote is against the spirit of the amended cons ution. It doesn't matter who supports it or whatever. Civil rights aren't voluntary.

    Now, if the government gave every person free IDs and had a quick and easy system to replace them, including and especially in time for election season, then you could get me to support requiring them to vote. But it's not up to an individual to pay for an ID, to fill out their application and hope it goes through in time. Voting is a right, not a privilege. You don't have to "earn" it by jumping through hoops.
    I think you could look at it the other way too, though. Election integrity is important so you should pass laws that prevent fraud. In that case, voter IDs reduce fraud and so therefore they should be passed. And even though something is a right, it doesn't mean you don't have to jump through hoops to exercise that right. For example, if you want to hold a demonstration in a public park or at a school or some other government building, you generally need a permit. That requires some work and diligence, even though we have a right to speak our minds under the cons ution. Maybe the compromise is to improve an ID system that would make it easier for those that don't have IDs to get them. That sounds like a reasonable focus. The problem is that in the public discourse, it's either Voter ID or no Voter Id and there aren't enough people willing to work on a compromise.

  2. #52
    "The ball don't lie." dbestpro's Avatar
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    No fan of cancel culture on either side. People need to decide elections, not corporations. Corporate donations and donations from CEOs or corporate board members within companies should not be allowed. Take the money out the of elections and maybe we can get to a point where people can start to respect each other.

  3. #53
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    I think you could look at it the other way too, though. Election integrity is important so you should pass laws that prevent fraud. In that case, voter IDs reduce fraud and so therefore they should be passed. And even though something is a right, it doesn't mean you don't have to jump through hoops to exercise that right. For example, if you want to hold a demonstration in a public park or at a school or some other government building, you generally need a permit. That requires some work and diligence, even though we have a right to speak our minds under the cons ution. Maybe the compromise is to improve an ID system that would make it easier for those that don't have IDs to get them. That sounds like a reasonable focus. The problem is that in the public discourse, it's either Voter ID or no Voter Id and there aren't enough people willing to work on a compromise.
    As I've said before, I think you're basically a good person who's heart is in the right place but seem to get your information from sources whose hearts aren't in the right place. Like I honestly do believe you're concerned with fraud and if you could waive a magic wand to make it to where every person would have a completely secure means to vote, you'd do so and let the chips fall where they may. In a world where voter ID laws didn't have the very obvious effect of reducing minority turnout, then the very few cases of voter fraud would be more concerning. In the current world, voter fraud doesn't even make up a rounding error. No one's said it had any effect on the GA election or even that it as a whole benefitted either side specifically. So it's a really minor problem.

    Election integrity is about the people's confidence in elections rather than the true security. That lack of confidence comes from rhetoric rather than evidence. In terms of data, there's no reason to question this past election. It was fine. Ballots were counted and totaled in an orderly manner. There wasn't any evidence in a large amount of fraud or fraud that particularly biased one group. So on and so on. However, the constant conspiracies and complaints and misunderstandings created an air where folks were more skeptical. That tanked integrity in the same way that the autism association damaged vaccine integrity. The truth is that election integrity doesn't need to be boosted by changing the way voting works. People need to stop clinging to ideas that don't have the evidence to support them.

  4. #54
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    No fan of cancel culture on either side. People need to decide elections, not corporations. Corporate donations and donations from CEOs or corporate board members within companies should not be allowed. Take the money out the of elections and maybe we can get to a point where people can start to respect each other.
    Campaign finance laws need to be written into the cons ution. I can agree there.

  5. #55
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    It doesn't really matter if minorities support it or not. The point of cons utionally protected rights is that you can't take them away by tricking a majority of people into supporting efforts to take them away, whether from themselves or others.

    Do voter ID laws affect voter turnout? Yes. Does not having ID laws reduce election integrity? Not to any functional extent. Is the effect of the reduced election integrity greater than the effect of the reduced turnout? Not even close. Therefore, the laws should should be struck down. Making it harder to vote is against the spirit of the amended cons ution. It doesn't matter who supports it or whatever. Civil rights aren't voluntary.

    Now, if the government gave every person free IDs and had a quick and easy system to replace them, including and especially in time for election season, then you could get me to support requiring them to vote. But it's not up to an individual to pay for an ID, to fill out their application and hope it goes through in time. Voting is a right, not a privilege. You don't have to "earn" it by jumping through hoops.
    Ok...you're firmly on the side of illegal votes.... I'm not....

  6. #56
    Veteran rastaspur's Avatar
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    You think I'm from Canada and am a Conservative? LMAO
    We know you aren't from Canada. They banned calf tats more than a decade qgo.

  7. #57
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    No fan of cancel culture on either side. People need to decide elections, not corporations. Corporate donations and donations from CEOs or corporate board members within companies should not be allowed. Take the money out the of elections and maybe we can get to a point where people can start to respect each other.
    Citizens United created this mess.

  8. #58
    Believe. OldMan88's Avatar
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    Most of 2020's top 'dark' money donors aided Democratic candidates

    More than $320 million in anonymous money benefited Democratic candidates in federal races this year. That's more than twice the so-called "dark" money that aided Republicans. These 10 groups contributed the most "dark" money in 2020 federal elections through Oct. 14.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/27/polit...den/index.html
    Last edited by OldMan88; 04-15-2021 at 12:46 PM.

  9. #59
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    The US is less a country and more a handful of corporations stacked in a trenchcoat. However, Pop is right that anyone donating millions to the righty religious death cult is full of and deserves, at the least, harsh criticism.

  10. #60
    Winner in a losers circle 140's Avatar
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    OP is drugged out crackhead incel with twig legs and calf tats

  11. #61
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    As I've said before, I think you're basically a good person who's heart is in the right place but seem to get your information from sources whose hearts aren't in the right place. Like I honestly do believe you're concerned with fraud and if you could waive a magic wand to make it to where every person would have a completely secure means to vote, you'd do so and let the chips fall where they may. In a world where voter ID laws didn't have the very obvious effect of reducing minority turnout, then the very few cases of voter fraud would be more concerning. In the current world, voter fraud doesn't even make up a rounding error. No one's said it had any effect on the GA election or even that it as a whole benefitted either side specifically. So it's a really minor problem.

    Election integrity is about the people's confidence in elections rather than the true security. That lack of confidence comes from rhetoric rather than evidence. In terms of data, there's no reason to question this past election. It was fine. Ballots were counted and totaled in an orderly manner. There wasn't any evidence in a large amount of fraud or fraud that particularly biased one group. So on and so on. However, the constant conspiracies and complaints and misunderstandings created an air where folks were more skeptical. That tanked integrity in the same way that the autism association damaged vaccine integrity. The truth is that election integrity doesn't need to be boosted by changing the way voting works. People need to stop clinging to ideas that don't have the evidence to support them.
    I'm not misguided about voter fraud. I think I've said in my other posts that while I think voter fraud happens in most elections, it is such a small percentage that it has no impact on the outcome of elections. Now, if you erased every voter fraud law, then that might change, but I didn't doubt for a minute on election night that the results were legitimate. I'm not one of those people that believed Trump when he said that the election was rigged. I trust the election process, whether it yields a Trump victory over Hillary or a Biden victory over Trump. I'm just saying that there has to be a balance in things and while I think voter ID law had the impact of suppressing voters 10 years ago, I'm not so sure that argument holds true today. I would have to see the numbers and believe that people that don't have some form of ID and are US Citizens and would have voted but for the voter ID and it's an unfair imposition on them. That said, as always, I listen to other people's point of views and I don't assume anyone is bad because they disagree with me, but saying that it is too hard to get online and do a search and fill out info online just doesn't strike me as an insurmountable step, especially because that's what I have to do anyway to find a place to vote. I mean, to do mail in voting you have to request a ballot. I guess I just need to see something other than just saying minorities don't have the ability to get online and register to vote.
    Last edited by cd98; 04-15-2021 at 01:24 PM.

  12. #62
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    Citizens United created this mess.
    Not true. You should try doing some research rather that just being a sock puppet for someone else’s talking points.

    Case summary[edit]

    In the case, No. 08-205, 558 U.S. 310 (2010), the non-profit organization Citizens United wanted to air a film critical of Hillary Clinton and to advertise the film during television broadcasts, which was a violation of the 2002 Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act, commonly known as the McCain–Feingold Act or "BCRA" (pronounced "bik-ruh").[7] Section 203 of BCRA defined an "electioneering communication" as a broadcast, cable, or satellite communication that mentioned a candidate within 60 days of a general election or 30 days of a primary, and prohibited such expenditures by corporations and unions. The United States District Court for the District of Columbia held that 203 of BCRA applied and prohibited Citizens United from advertising the film Hillary: The Movie in broadcasts or paying to have it shown on television within 30 days of the 2008 Democratic primaries.[1][8] The Supreme Court reversed this decision, striking down those provisions of BCRA that prohibited corporations (including nonprofit corporations) and unions from making independent expenditures for "electioneering communications".[7] The majority decision overruled Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce(1990) and partially overruled McConnell v. Federal Election Commission (2003).[9] The Court, however, upheld requirements for public disclosure by sponsors of advertisements (BCRA 201 and 311). The case did not involve the federal ban on direct contributions from corporations or unions to candidate campaigns or political parties, which remain illegal in races for federal office.[10]

  13. #63
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    Why do people try to change the subject to China or something else when people are talking about racial issues in the U.S? Always thought that was ing stupid.
    Because he's worried about donations here but not the money from the CCP that lines his pockets. He's a hypocrite plain and simple.

    We know you aren't from Canada. They banned calf tats more than a decade qgo.
    No humor found in the above... Lame bro. I'll just call you Schumer from here on out cause you reek just like her barn yard pussy.

  14. #64
    "The ball don't lie." dbestpro's Avatar
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    One of the common schemes in voter fraud occurs when a politquera will promise you 500 votes for $1000. Throughout the year, they make friends with the elderly and vote for them without their knowledge. They also provide payouts to nursing home personnel to get access to their patients. This activity is hush, hush but has been going on in Texas for a long time, and in particular, the RGV. I know, because I lost an election by 27 votes because I would not pay up but supposedly my opponent did. Also, I have seen ballot boxes take 3 hours to get to the court house from a school that is 15 minutes away. Just too many shenanigans go on everywhere. You would think something so important would be held as secure as your money in the bank is. Sadly, too many people really don't care one way or another. I ran as a democrat, so don't try to make it just a party issue.

  15. #65
    Believe. OldMan88's Avatar
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    One of the common schemes in voter fraud occurs when a politquera will promise you 500 votes for $1000. Throughout the year, they make friends with the elderly and vote for them without their knowledge. They also provide payouts to nursing home personnel to get access to their patients. This activity is hush, hush but has been going on in Texas for a long time, and in particular, the RGV. I know, because I lost an election by 27 votes because I would not pay up but supposedly my opponent did. Also, I have seen ballot boxes take 3 hours to get to the court house from a school that is 15 minutes away. Just too many shenanigans go on everywhere. You would think something so important would be held as secure as your money in the bank is. Sadly, too many people really don't care one way or another. I ran as a democrat, so don't try to make it just a party issue.
    This is very common in most states. If you’ve ever wanted to know why there are so many liars, cheaters & thieves in politics, just try getting elected running an honest campaign. The higher the office, the worse it gets.

  16. #66
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    Yep crime does pay it don’t care if your in the streets or in the town hall everyone want those Benjamins - Some peeps will kill you just for your shoes you don’t think people will lie cheat steal or even kill to have power and money?

  17. #67
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    Because he's worried about donations here but not the money from the CCP that lines his pockets. He's a hypocrite plain and simple.
    And the people who deflect on racial issues in this country talk about China. They don't really care about either. Pop is talking about something that he has familiarized himself with, nothing wrong with that tbh.

  18. #68
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    Some really stupid conservative cliches in those replies.

    Obviously if we're going to consider money as speech, we can and should look at who is supporting stupid things with their wallets. The question would be what Pop wants us to do with what we'd learn. If he wants owners who donate to GOP candidates to be forced to sell their teams or whatever, then obviously that way too far and will backfire. If he just wants a light to be shined on them so they face some pressure to change their stance, well that's perfectly normal. Free speech depends on being able to criticize others for what they say. The marketplace of ideas only works if the ty ideas go away. Instead, too many of them get coddled by the stupid liberal ideas of "fairness" and "politeness". We need to stop giving out participation trophies to stupid regressive ideas.
    By pressure you mean go ape at their homes? Bother the outta anyone that looks like them while they are dining out? F Pop! That is the most hypocritical person in the association. Him and his millions don't give a about the poor. (Don't really blame him tho.) Just saying he's full of .

  19. #69
    Believe. paperboy77's Avatar
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    Did Pop ask for himself to be appointed as the person who audits the owners? Thought it was more like he was calling for their donations to be public record.
    Who gives a about who they donate to. SOMEBODY will always donate to both sides. Pop has turned into a nosey-ass Karen.

  20. #70
    Believe. paperboy77's Avatar
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    more precisely, all professional black athletes should know if their owners are contributing to suppress black voters.

    Thanks to the corrupt right-wing SCOTUS, team ownership can contribute to suppression of black voters through dark money.
    Isn't the end game most of the time to be rich? All these athletes are rich. Why would they give a damn about anyone's "suppression"? Dig your ass off the couch and go vote during the times EVERYONE else goes to vote. (If that's what you mean about being suppressed.)

  21. #71
    Veteran spurs10's Avatar
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    I guess it's a horrible feeling to get your Spurs calf tats and realize their coach and all their players think you're an idiot.

  22. #72
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    Why do people try to change the subject to China or something else when people are talking about racial issues in the U.S? Always thought that was ing stupid.
    So blacks in other countries don't matter? There's a whole of ty treatment of blacks in Africa bro. China as well along with gays. For that matter, S American countries diss on blacks, Islamic states hate s. Europe has a huge issue with this. Spain treats non Spaniards like . Seems like everyone s on the Orientals.

    A lot of people in the US have close ties to their countries so that stuff matters. The US is bar none... the best most tolerant country on Earth. By a mile.

  23. #73
    Believe. paperboy77's Avatar
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    The people who bring up China when people talk about civil rights in this country don't usually actually care about China, they're using it to try and deflect from the civil rights issues here.

    Pop has generally only discussed issues pertaining to the U.S, likely because he knows those issues much better and has the platform to draw attention and to try and sway people. Same could be said about Lebron or other athletes. I wouldn't call that disingenuous
    Why give a about these issues in the US? Handle your business and make it big. There's nothing in the way of you doing it. Just get it done, no excuses. Get rich or die trying right?

  24. #74
    Believe. paperboy77's Avatar
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    Why do people, Pop included, think minorities are too incompetent to apply for a valid form of identification?

    Keep in mind you need a photo ID to get the covid vaccine everywhere in this country, and the same people whining about Georgia's voter laws sure are insistent on everyone getting that vaccine.
    you need an ID to pickup your NBA game tickets!

  25. #75
    Believe. paperboy77's Avatar
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    Um, so you don't actually need photo ID to get the vaccine in many places (Austin being among them). What you need is proof of appointment, which is a print out of the email or the ability to use your phone to display the email.

    Secondly, what you're doing would be like Jim Crowers saying "Why do people think minorities are too incompetent to learn to read or too poor to pay a small tax?" It's not about it being an insurmountable task, or even one the average minority wouldn't be able to cross. It's about setting hurdles at just the right height to disproportionately affect certain groups. It's a reality that state-issued photo IDs are something minority and poor people lack at a higher rate than the rest of the population. That's why the line is at state-issued and not allowed to include student ID's or proof of residency or other things that poor people have at a much higher rate than a driver's license or state ID.
    You make it seem like it's an insurmountable thing to get an ID. Go get it. It absolutely makes sense to have one. Just does. All I hear from you is a bunch of excuses. Look now... you have until 2024 to get one so make it happen.

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