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  1. #176
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    You're being too emotionally obtuse to see the bigger and real picture. You sound like old farts here in South America when Europeans started buying all of our stars. They would say the same type of you are saying now:

    "These talentless euros are stealing all of our players to play on that plastic football with their boring fans. They are killing football".

    Fast forward to today, football has never been bigger. If Saudi Arabia becomes the most powerful league in the World, it will be exactly the same, only better. More options to watch elite football. They aren't killing . Same thing if the MLS ever becomes elite.
    It’s NOT elite football nor will it be imo. And you have no idea what obtuse means. Go back and read MY argument. Not your prejudices.

    Again you don’t know Saudi Arabia at all.

    You don’t know the conditions it takes to have good football. Football in the desert comes naturally just like golf and horse racing?
    By your analysis the EPL should start dying “because all the good footballers are going elsewhere” Except they are NOT. The EPL has never been more popular.

    There is more of a chance of having a good football team in Sunderland with the injection of money. Established fan base very hungry. Actual rivalries with many local teams.

    Wait a hundred more years with climate change, grass growing all over Saudi Arabias huge land mass, and people moving there and we will talk from our graves. Good lord… this is stupid. “Saudi is an organic product …” no it’s perfectly NOT…

  2. #177
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    It’s NOT elite football nor will it be imo. And you have no idea what obtuse means. Go back and read MY argument. Not your prejudices.

    Again you don’t know Saudi Arabia at all.

    You don’t know the conditions it takes to have good football. Football in the desert comes naturally just like golf and horse racing?
    By your analysis the EPL should start dying “because all the good footballers are going elsewhere” Except they are NOT. The EPL has never been more popular.

    There is more of a chance of having a good football team in Sunderland with the injection of money. Established fan base very hungry. Actual rivalries with many local teams.

    Wait a hundred more years with climate change, grass growing all over Saudi Arabias huge land mass, and people moving there and we will talk from our graves. Good lord… this is stupid. “Saudi is an organic product …” no it’s perfectly NOT…
    Dude, you're all over the place. Can't even (or don't want to) understand the point I'm making. Not worth keep arguing this with you, tbh.

    P/S: the only one with prejudices here is you. "Saudi Arabia can't have a decent football league"

  3. #178
    Guest Personality Hoops Czar's Avatar
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    Just like all the Suadi teams have always had fans in Saudi.



    But that's an unfair comparisson. European football NOW has already conalized the global market thanks to years and years of injecting money. Nobody gave a about European football, outside of Europe, before the Bosman law.



    Just like football was huge organically in Saudi Arabia too for Suadi Arabia fans even before they started spending money in big name stars.
    Europe basically invented the game of soccer in the 1800s.. The financial superiority of Europe over other continents like Asia, Africa and South America were profound however, South American players flocked to Europe because of the compe ion and exposure as well as money. It had nothing to do with Bosman's law, but more to do with the growth of television and the internet. Europe had infused a lot of money into technology, science, training and education in a way that no other football culture has done. They aren't the best simply because they buy up all the talent. Europe has won the FIFA WC 12 out of 21 times since the the early 1900's. Champions league, evolving in 1955, is the most viewed sporting event in the world behind the World Cup, absolutely smashing the Super bowl's best ever ratings. There are also more clubs, and tiers of European football allowing for more growth and opportunity at a very young age. If Saudi is serious about soccer the way they are about cricket, they'll need to build soccer into their culture and spend less time trying to persuade European's to play soccer in Saudi Arabia by handing them blank checks.

    I also found it cute that Saudi Arabia made a bid to UEFA to be a wild card team in champions league before being shot down by the UEFA president. And then he compared the SPL to the Chinese League....

    https://www.marca.com/en/football/ch...65f8b45e1.html

  4. #179
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Europe basically invented the game of soccer in the 1800s.. The financial superiority of Europe over other continents like Asia, Africa and South America were profound however, South American players flocked to Europe because of the compe ion and exposure as well as money. It had nothing to do with Bosman's law, but more to do with the growth of television and the internet. Europe had infused a lot of money into technology, science, training and education in a way that no other football culture has done. They aren't the best simply because they buy up all the talent. Europe has won the FIFA WC 12 out of 21 times since the the early 1900's. Champions league, evolving in 1955, is the most viewed sporting event in the world behind the World Cup, absolutely smashing the Super bowl's best ever ratings. There are also more clubs, and tiers of European football allowing for more growth and opportunity at a very young age. If Saudi is serious about soccer the way they are about cricket, they'll need to build soccer into their culture and spend less time trying to persuade European's to play soccer in Saudi Arabia by handing them blank checks.

    I also found it cute that Saudi Arabia made a bid to UEFA to be a wild card team in champions league before being shot down by the UEFA president. And then he compared the SPL to the Chinese League....

    https://www.marca.com/en/football/ch...65f8b45e1.html
    Europe didn't win 12 out of 21 WCs, they won 12 out of 22, with South America winning the other 10, despite being only 10 countries in Conmebol.

    Originally, South Americans didn't go to Europe because of the compe ion. The level was the same, or in even better, in South America. They went to Europe strictly because of the money, just like players are doing now with Suadi Arabia. Eventually, with years and years of buying all the best players from all around the globe (aspect in which the Bosman law played a huge role), yeah, European football inevitably became the highest level of compe ion. The same thing that can happen if Saudi Arabia keeps atracting talent with their huge contracts.

    If Saudi Arabia ever becomes the best league in the World it will be exactly for the same reason Europe did: Economic power. Simple as that.

  5. #180
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    DAF, you truly believe it's just the money?

    Bleak opinion of the game brother

  6. #181
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    DAF, you truly believe it's just the money?

    Bleak opinion of the game brother
    Yes, the only reason the Champions League is more watched than Copa Libertadores is because of money. If South America were the one with the money instead of Europe we would be talking about River, boca, Flamengo, Corinthians, Nacional and Peñarol instead of Real Madrid, Barcelona and City.

    Now that Messi and Ronaldo are playing in the US and SA, those leagues are being watched more than ever. It is the players that move the ratings, not the teams. And players go where the money is.

  7. #182
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    Yes, the only reason the Champions League is more watched than Copa Libertadores is because of money. If South America were the one with the money instead of Europe we would be talking about River, boca, Flamengo, Corinthians, Nacional and Peñarol instead of Real Madrid, Barcelona and City.

    Now that Messi and Ronaldo are playing in the US and SA, those leagues are being watched more than ever. It is the players that move the ratings, not the teams. And players go where the money is.
    Well its TV rights that draw in the average fan

    There aren't enough stars to headline every team that's where reputation and pass glory sells


    Money is indeed the largest piece of the pie but there are other intangibles that a Arab might never reach. For all we know this might be a bubble and teams sooner than later start facing big financial losses.

  8. #183
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Dude, you're all over the place. Can't even (or don't want to) understand the point I'm making. Not worth keep arguing this with you, tbh.

    P/S: the only one with prejudices here is you. "Saudi Arabia can't have a decent football league"
    IM ALL OVER the place.
    You cant admit the obvious.

    What point are you trying to make?
    Because when this started I said soccer began in EUROPE, specifically ENGLAND, and spread to other places. You said yes only because money and asserted it was organically grown in Saudi Arabia which is bull . Its as organic as GOLF, which the Saudis ALSO have tried to get an audience via $. They have tried to export the game of golf via TV the SAME way. Like a giant desert is full of golf courses... Of course Saudi Arabia is allowed to have its own league made up of old fading players and players who want to get paid and dont care about playing against the best in the world.

    You dont have a clue.

    This seems like this is your own "Im a little South American and I got steamrolled by money argument" And you dont even care about club football so just stop for God's sake. I fkn root for Tottenham and have gotten thoroughly trounced by English and Spanish Clubs with access to better players. I know its not entirely fair. But I became a fan knowing it is not a game that was created to be fair financially even though some claim they try to be fair.

    If fan participation and cultural proclivity towards a game deserve money then South America definitely deserves an influx of money to start a league that could really compete with Europe on the club level. NOT SAUDI ARABIA. This is basically what MY point would "hopefully" result in. You see something wrong with that? Why doesnt Saudi Royal Family (something you have completely overlooked) spend money on club teams in South America and help an organic passionate fan base? The South Americans adopted the game readily for pretty obvious reasons and became equals if not better than the Europeans. Are you going to now claim that Saudi has as many people as Brazil or Argentina like you did with European countries and your silly 90% rule?
    Last edited by pgardn; 09-04-2023 at 08:57 PM.

  9. #184
    Guest Personality Hoops Czar's Avatar
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    Europe didn't win 12 out of 21 WCs, they won 12 out of 22, with South America winning the other 10, despite being only 10 countries in Conmebol.

    Originally, South Americans didn't go to Europe because of the compe ion. The level was the same, or in even better, in South America. They went to Europe strictly because of the money, just like players are doing now with Suadi Arabia. Eventually, with years and years of buying all the best players from all around the globe (aspect in which the Bosman law played a huge role), yeah, European football inevitably became the highest level of compe ion. The same thing that can happen if Saudi Arabia keeps atracting talent with their huge contracts.

    If Saudi Arabia ever becomes the best league in the World it will be exactly for the same reason Europe did: Economic power. Simple as that.
    My point about the 12 WC victories was to prove that Europe had a lot of homegrown talent that they developed, trained and educated, not that they bought out South America to become the juggernaut that they are today. And for those keeping tabs, Saudi Arabia's best ever WC finish was in 1994 where they reached the round of 16, the one and only time they qualified for the knock out stages. Also, outside of the EPL, PSG and Real Madrid, who in Europe has money to spend? You'd think if Dortmund had money, they would have been able to hold on to one of Bellingham or Haaland. Girona? RB Leipzig? Union Berlin? Monaco? Lyon? Valencia?

    And for all it's glory, The Saudi Pro League is the 27th best league in the world, sandwiched between the South Korean K League 1 and Israeli Premier League despite it's mega millions budget and European signings. , the English Championship, England's second tier league, is actually ranked 6th.

    https://www.givemesport.com/what-are-the-best-leagues-in-the-world/


    I think Europe has always had a slight advantage over South America but even if they were 1A to South America's 1B, that still puts them at or near the very top, not like Saudi Arabia, who aren't even on the map yet. If Saudi Arabia wants to be taken seriously as a football powerhouse, they need to develop and invest in their own because the idea of spending large sums of money to lure world footballers to the desert will only get you so far.

  10. #185
    Guest Personality Hoops Czar's Avatar
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    Yes, the only reason the Champions League is more watched than Copa Libertadores is because of money. If South America were the one with the money instead of Europe we would be talking about River, boca, Flamengo, Corinthians, Nacional and Peñarol instead of Real Madrid, Barcelona and City.

    Now that Messi and Ronaldo are playing in the US and SA, those leagues are being watched more than ever. It is the players that move the ratings, not the teams. And players go where the money is.
    Well, Inter Miami has a cult following but the rest of the MLS is mostly meh, to put it kindly. Where can you catch a SA stream these days?

  11. #186
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Well, Inter Miami has a cult following but the rest of the MLS is mostly meh, to put it kindly. Where can you catch a SA stream these days?
    I asked about that and got nothing for an answer.

  12. #187
    Guest Personality Hoops Czar's Avatar
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    I asked about that and got nothing for an answer.
    Apparently, Fox Sports picked up the Saudi Pro League rights in the US. Games are only available on FS2 and Fox Deportes. Coincidentally, Do you know how many Saudi fans were in attendance to see Ronaldo net his 850th career goal in Al Nassr's 5-1 victory over Al Hazem? 12,297 passionate fans . Even worse, do you know how many fans were in attendance to see Al Khaleej beat Al Shabab 3-1? 987 . Just ruthless! The Saudi Gov't forgot to notify its fan-base that the Saudi Pro league has European soccer players now.
    Last edited by Hoops Czar; 09-05-2023 at 12:01 AM.

  13. #188
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    My point about the 12 WC victories was to prove that Europe had a lot of homegrown talent that they developed, trained and educated, not that they bought out South America to become the juggernaut that they are today. And for those keeping tabs, Saudi Arabia's best ever WC finish was in 1994 where they reached the round of 16, the one and only time they qualified for the knock out stages. Also, outside of the EPL, PSG and Real Madrid, who in Europe has money to spend? You'd think if Dortmund had money, they would have been able to hold on to one of Bellingham or Haaland. Girona? RB Leipzig? Union Berlin? Monaco? Lyon? Valencia?

    And for all it's glory, The Saudi Pro League is the 27th best league in the world, sandwiched between the South Korean K League 1 and Israeli Premier League despite it's mega millions budget and European signings. , the English Championship, England's second tier league, is actually ranked 6th.

    https://www.givemesport.com/what-are-the-best-leagues-in-the-world/


    I think Europe has always had a slight advantage over South America but even if they were 1A to South America's 1B, that still puts them at or near the very top, not like Saudi Arabia, who aren't even on the map yet. If Saudi Arabia wants to be taken seriously as a football powerhouse, they need to develop and invest in their own because the idea of spending large sums of money to lure world footballers to the desert will only get you so far.
    While money wasn't an issue, South America always had the edge over Europe. More WC's and more Club WC's. Once Europe started getting all the best players in their leagues, the thing changed. You have an advantage when your home grown players get to play with the best in the World week in and week out. It is really a testament to the level of South American football how they manage to keep international ball compe ive with that huge disadvantage.

    This injection of international talent will only help Saudi Arabia to develop their home grown players.

  14. #189
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Well its TV rights that draw in the average fan

    There aren't enough stars to headline every team that's where reputation and pass glory sells


    Money is indeed the largest piece of the pie but there are other intangibles that a Arab might never reach. For all we know this might be a bubble and teams sooner than later start facing big financial losses.
    Sure, I'm not saying this Sudi Arabia tactic is gonna work. All I'm saying that nobody should cry about Saudi's ruining football. It's what Europe did and it's just how the market works. Deal with it.

  15. #190
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    While money wasn't an issue, South America always had the edge over Europe. More WC's and more Club WC's. Once Europe started getting all the best players in their leagues, the thing changed. You have an advantage when your home grown players get to play with the best in the World week in and week out. It is really a testament to the level of South American football how they manage to keep international ball compe ive with that huge disadvantage.

    This injection of international talent will only help Saudi Arabia to develop their home grown players.
    It wasn't until the liberalisation and globalization of the transfer market in the 90's did South Americans flock to Europe to play for money. In the early years, the Football Association introduced a regulation stating that no professional player was allowed to play unless he registered annually with the FA, nor could he switch clubs without the FA's permission. Later on, a new rule was introduced insisting that any player who wanted to change clubs could only do so with the approval of their present club. Clubs could exclusively hold the registration of a player they had signed for as long as they wanted him, even if his contract had expired. There were also regulations preventing the signing of players from outside the club's locality. The rule was later broadened to allow other English players to join, but many leagues limited the number of foreign nationals that could play for the club. The players had very little rights and whether they wanted to play in Europe for money, it was out of their control.

    https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/33989

    Europe won three of the first five WCs and those are indicative of homegrown talent rather than international talent. Sure, being around great players helps but Europe had great players too. But this is a distraction from the original discussion of Saudi Arabia being no different than Europe. Europe is and always has been a super power in world football, SA has accomplished absolutely nothing. No trophies, hardware, diplomas of recognition or plaques of honor. Saudi Arabia and Europe both have money, that's where the similarities end. And despite their Financial clout and for all this hype surrounding the up and coming Saudi Pro League, the fan base hasn't bought in yet because they're struggling to fill their 25,000 seat stadiums beyond 50%-60% of capacity.

  16. #191
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Sure, I'm not saying this Sudi Arabia tactic is gonna work. All I'm saying that nobody should cry about Saudi's ruining football. It's what Europe did and it's just how the market works. Deal with it.
    Saudi Arabia is not ruining football. You are the one that claimed they are getting all the good players, not me.
    They just are not a football country yet.
    Where did you come up with this BS. You are completely changed your argument.

    They have a few good younger players from European Club teams that want to get paid. More older ones that were tired of Europe and wanted to get paid.
    Nothing wrong with that. The Saudi family takes oil money from big rich countries and spend it freely. they paid Donald Trump's son in law 2 billion dollars.
    They did basically the same thing with golf and horse racing, although in golf in caused much much more of an uproar.

  17. #192
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    It wasn't until the liberalisation and globalization of the transfer market in the 90's did South Americans flock to Europe to play for money. In the early years, the Football Association introduced a regulation stating that no professional player was allowed to play unless he registered annually with the FA, nor could he switch clubs without the FA's permission. Later on, a new rule was introduced insisting that any player who wanted to change clubs could only do so with the approval of their present club. Clubs could exclusively hold the registration of a player they had signed for as long as they wanted him, even if his contract had expired. There were also regulations preventing the signing of players from outside the club's locality. The rule was later broadened to allow other English players to join, but many leagues limited the number of foreign nationals that could play for the club. The players had very little rights and whether they wanted to play in Europe for money, it was out of their control.

    https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/33989

    Europe won three of the first five WCs and those are indicative of homegrown talent rather than international talent. Sure, being around great players helps but Europe had great players too. But this is a distraction from the original discussion of Saudi Arabia being no different than Europe. Europe is and always has been a super power in world football, SA has accomplished absolutely nothing. No trophies, hardware, diplomas of recognition or plaques of honor. Saudi Arabia and Europe both have money, that's where the similarities end. And despite their Financial clout and for all this hype surrounding the up and coming Saudi Pro League, the fan base hasn't bought in yet because they're struggling to fill their 25,000 seat stadiums beyond 50%-60% of capacity.
    So? That doesn't mean "football is going to die" if Saudi Arabia manges to built the strongest league in the World. In any case, football will grow.

  18. #193
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Saudi Arabia is not ruining football. You are the one that claimed they are getting all the good players, not me.
    They just are not a football country yet.
    Where did you come up with this BS. You are completely changed your argument.

    They have a few good younger players from European Club teams that want to get paid. More older ones that were tired of Europe and wanted to get paid.
    Nothing wrong with that. The Saudi family takes oil money from big rich countries and spend it freely. they paid Donald Trump's son in law 2 billion dollars.
    They did basically the same thing with golf and horse racing, although in golf in caused much much more of an uproar.
    I don't know if specifically you, but there are lots of people worrying about the Saudi League becoming bigger and bigger and taking the best players out of Europe. If that happens, people shouldn't complain, because this is exactly the same way that the top 3 or 4 European leagues became the strongest in the World. That's all I'm saying.

  19. #194
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    While money wasn't an issue, South America always had the edge over Europe. More WC's and more Club WC's. Once Europe started getting all the best players in their leagues, the thing changed. You have an advantage when your home grown players get to play with the best in the World week in and week out. It is really a testament to the level of South American football how they manage to keep international ball compe ive with that huge disadvantage.

    This injection of international talent will only help Saudi Arabia to develop their home grown players.
    Their potential is very limited, they have like 20 m habitants, no structure, no history, no nothing. they will develop some home grown players but with a limited, won't make any difference.

    You also forget to mention that South America is also successful because the best players play in Europe under European structure, coaching etc... that has no equivalent in the world. It goes both way. South American leagues are just awful, it is corrupted to the highest point, nepotism is everywhere... Santos is going to play in second division and basically is bankrupted 10 years after selling robinho, neymar, ganso etc...

    Not sure what kind of argument you are making

  20. #195
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Their potential is very limited, they have like 20 m habitants, no structure, no history, no nothing. they will develop some home grown players but with a limited, won't make any difference.

    You also forget to mention that South America is also successful because the best players play in Europe under European structure, coaching etc... that has no equivalent in the world. It goes both way. South American leagues are just awful, it is corrupted to the highest point, nepotism is everywhere... Santos is going to play in second division and basically is bankrupted 10 years after selling robinho, neymar, ganso etc...

    Not sure what kind of argument you are making
    My argument is pretty clear, tbh: Europeans crying "Saudi's are gonna kill football with all their spending" are lacking self awareness, since European teams did the same .

  21. #196
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    My argument is pretty clear, tbh: Europeans crying "Saudi's are gonna kill football with all their spending" are lacking self awareness, since European teams did the same .
    Not sure who is crying about it... I personnally don't care, Ronaldo is done, Neymar good riddance, Karim had probably another good year but that's about it, the rest is not very impactful anyway.

    Now I think that South Amercia has more to loose than Europe tbh.... young and mid age players are signing there. The level of domestic championships is gonna suffer like the Libertadores that is already pretty bad.

  22. #197
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Not sure who is crying about it... I personnally don't care, Ronaldo is done, Neymar good riddance, Karim had probably another good year but that's about it, the rest is not very impactful anyway.

    Now I think that South Amercia has more to loose than Europe tbh.... young and mid age players are signing there. The level of domestic championships is gonna suffer like the Libertadores that is already pretty bad.
    If you don't care why are you arguing?

    Who's crying? A lot of folks in the media, the internet and even people within football. Tony Kroos send a message saying "pathetic" when a young promising kid from Betis decided to sign with a Saudi team.

    In South America we are used to losing all our best players, it is the people in power in Europe that are worried about losing all that bandwagoning fandom if all the best players start going elsewhere. They have already lost quite a bit of viewership with Messi going to the MLS and Ronaldo going to Sudi Arabia.

  23. #198
    Chunky Brazil's Avatar
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    If you don't care why are you arguing?

    Who's crying? A lot of folks in the media, the internet and even people within football. Tony Kroos send a message saying "pathetic" when a young promising kid from Betis decided to sign with a Saudi team.

    In South America we are used to losing all our best players, it is the people in power in Europe that are worried about losing all that bandwagoning fandom if all the best players start going elsewhere. They have already lost quite a bit of viewership with Messi going to the MLS and Ronaldo going to Sudi Arabia.
    I'm not arguing about Saudi Arabia buying players, as I said I don't care. I was giving my two cents on some of your comments. For the rest some european media crying about that is pretty rich indeed, I agree.

    The fact that in SA you get used to lose players doesn't mean it is without consequences, as I stated the level of play is already quite horrific and this is not gonna to help

  24. #199
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    My point about the 12 WC victories was to prove that Europe had a lot of homegrown talent that they developed, trained and educated, not that they bought out South America to become the juggernaut that they are today. And for those keeping tabs, Saudi Arabia's best ever WC finish was in 1994 where they reached the round of 16, the one and only time they qualified for the knock out stages. Also, outside of the EPL, PSG and Real Madrid, who in Europe has money to spend? You'd think if Dortmund had money, they would have been able to hold on to one of Bellingham or Haaland. Girona? RB Leipzig? Union Berlin? Monaco? Lyon? Valencia?

    And for all it's glory, The Saudi Pro League is the 27th best league in the world, sandwiched between the South Korean K League 1 and Israeli Premier League despite it's mega millions budget and European signings. , the English Championship, England's second tier league, is actually ranked 6th.

    https://www.givemesport.com/what-are-the-best-leagues-in-the-world/


    I think Europe has always had a slight advantage over South America but even if they were 1A to South America's 1B, that still puts them at or near the very top, not like Saudi Arabia, who aren't even on the map yet. If Saudi Arabia wants to be taken seriously as a football powerhouse, they need to develop and invest in their own because the idea of spending large sums of money to lure world footballers to the desert will only get you so far.
    Ummm that league ranking list is very suspect... There's no way MLS is ranked 7 spots above Mexican Liga MX. Most every tournament that the CONCACAF Club Teams have gone at each other it is usually a Mexican team that lifts the cup. Just saying. Besides the Mexican League has far more storied clubs.

  25. #200
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    Imagine getting this excited arguing about a game where you can't use your hands

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