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  1. #151
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    This was a great signing by the Spurs likely only made possible by COVID rules allowing two-way players to be paid basically as min guys. Still, it shows either a decent amount of trust in the FO (which honestly they haven't earned looking at Weatherspoon and Blossomgame both signing two-way deal but never getting that full deal) or a moderate lack of confidence in his ability to get a min deal elsewhere. I wonder if his SL play is what led to this over him getting a Jones-like contract. In either event, this clears up the roster a bit, bringing the roster compe ion down to 18 players compe ion for 15 spots.

    Murray, White, Jones
    Walker, Forbes, Primo
    McDermott, Vassell, Hutchison, Bates-Diop
    Johnson, Young, Samanic, Aminu
    Poeltl, Landale, Eubanks, Collins

    There's still a spot on the off-season roster for a second two-way and an Austin send-down. It might be best not to fill those spots, since this compe ion for back-court spots is going to be a bit livelier than normal.
    So who's gone? Hutchinson, aminu and kbd?

  2. #152
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    So who's gone? Hutchinson, aminu and kbd?
    Hutchinson for sure.

    Maybe there's a way to keep KBD on a two-way? Not sure, though. Have gotten different responses from different posters on this.

    I assume one of the centers is gone.

  3. #153
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    Good.
    He was better and better during SL after a rough start.
    He is a player who needs the right system around him. He could a duncan robinson with better atheltism.

  4. #154
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    This was a great signing by the Spurs likely only made possible by COVID rules allowing two-way players to be paid basically as min guys. Still, it shows either a decent amount of trust in the FO (which honestly they haven't earned looking at Weatherspoon and Blossomgame both signing two-way deal but never getting that full deal) or a moderate lack of confidence in his ability to get a min deal elsewhere. I wonder if his SL play is what led to this over him getting a Jones-like contract. In either event, this clears up the roster a bit, bringing the roster compe ion down to 18 players compe ion for 15 spots.

    Murray, White, Jones
    Walker, Forbes, Primo
    McDermott, Vassell, Hutchison, Bates-Diop
    Johnson, Young, Samanic, Aminu
    Poeltl, Landale, Eubanks, Collins

    There's still a spot on the off-season roster for a second two-way and an Austin send-down. It might be best not to fill those spots, since this compe ion for back-court spots is going to be a bit livelier than normal.
    Hutchison never got a Spurs Twitter account welcome msg. Everyone else did. Just sayin’. Pretty sure you can scratch him off the opening day roster as either a stretch or a trade.

  5. #155
    Believe. Em-City's Avatar
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    Hutchinson for sure.

    Maybe there's a way to keep KBD on a two-way? Not sure, though. Have gotten different responses from different posters on this.

    I assume one of the centers is gone.
    It would suck to ship Eubanks because of Collins. Maybe they get some kind of injured player exception while Collins is out?

  6. #156
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    It would suck to ship Eubanks because of Collins. Maybe they get some kind of injured player exception while Collins is out?
    No injured list. All players count against your 15 man roster. Back in the day, the rosters were either 12, or 13, and you were allowed a couple of injury spots outside the roster. That went away when they expanded rosters to 15.

  7. #157
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    This was a bonus to the Eubanks signing. Eubanks going from undrafted to summer league to two-way contract to long-term contract gave the Spurs someone they could point to as a success story.

    But yeah I'm surprised Wieskamp was willing to sign a two-way. I highly doubt the Spurs drafted him with the condition that he was going to sign a two-way. His stock was safely in the 40s so didn't have to agree to that to get drafted.
    I don't think Wieskamp should look at Eubanks' Hinkie special as something to aspire to. Unless he thought he just wouldn't get an NBA contract (which I'd find unlikely given his draft status and supposed stock), it would not have been hard for him to beat Eubanks' salary, ESPEICALLY since Drew might end up cut anyway. I can't see Joe's signing as anything but a random boon for the club.

    You sure about that? KBD looks two-way eligible to me since he has less than four seasons in the NBA. He's also a two-way restricted free agent, right?
    I'm not entirely sure, but the CBA FAQ says in multiple places that a player can't have more than three seasons at any point during a two-way contract. He'd only need the one game with the big club for next season to count. But does it accrue after the game, or does it wait until after the season? It's very weird wording. I think what's clear is that you can't sign a two-year two-way deal if you have three years of service. For what it's worth, Project Spurs said two weeks ago he was tendered a regular QO , though now they seem to suggest it was a two-way QO. If the latter case is true, then the Spurs basically locked themselves out of offering another two-way deal until KBD decides to take the tender or not. If it's the regular QO, the Spurs have seemingly committed to having KBD in for camp if he can't find a better deal.

  8. #158
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Let's for the time being assume I was incorrect on KBD not being able to get a two-way and that SA basically locked him in such a spot by not pulling their QO last Friday. That would put the roster at:

    Murray, White, Jones
    Walker, Forbes, Primo
    McDermott, Vassell, Hutchison,
    Johnson, Young, Samanic, Aminu
    Poeltl, Landale, Eubanks, Collins

    That's 17 guys. Hutchinson may be gone, with Wieskamp and Bates-Diop able to fill in whatever SF minutes aren't covered by the regular roster. Outside of a trade, that basically leaves Aminu versus Eubanks for the last spot. If we're talking about the team winning now, then Eubanks obviously makes more sense than AFA. But in terms of asset retention, having AFA's mid-sized expiring would make the Spurs effective trade partners later in the season. They've shown some inclination to make moves this season, so I wouldn't discount them giving the tradeability some real weight here. Also, if AFA gets back some form, he can be helpful to the club or at least a more buoyant trade piece. Then again, Eubanks shouldn't be a bad trade piece, and he might be needed with Collins out for so long and Landale new. Young and probably Samanic can play some five, but the Spurs could see themselves outsized pretty quickly.

    It's a really tough decision, and a trade probably isn't going to fix that problem. Could be something to carry into camp to give the team a better idea of AFA's and Collins' health and Luka's ability to be a rotation player this year.

  9. #159
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    Wow. 17 players, not including KBD and Lil Weezy. This will be interesting. It seems un-Spursy to have this dilemma; usually things are thought out. And maybe it has been and we are waiting.

    Are there any other contracts waiting to be signed that could somehow be involved in impacting the roster makeup?

  10. #160
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    Hopefully they run the offense around Lil Weezy. I like his game and think he has a lot more to offer than what we saw in summer league.

  11. #161
    Don't stop believin' Dex's Avatar
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    Hutchison never got a Spurs Twitter account welcome msg. Everyone else did. Just sayin’. Pretty sure you can scratch him off the opening day roster as either a stretch or a trade.
    Good. I know it's become a running joke around here, but nothing about him suggests a guy who has "gotten over himself" and the Spurs don't need that presence in the locker room.

  12. #162
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    I'm not entirely sure, but the CBA FAQ says in multiple places that a player can't have more than three seasons at any point during a two-way contract. He'd only need the one game with the big club for next season to count. But does it accrue after the game, or does it wait until after the season? It's very weird wording.
    I asked someone who would know and, yes, KBD has one more year of two-way eligibility. So, yeah, safe to say it will be KBD with a backup of Jeffries probably.

    I know two-way contracts don't count against the cap but does a two-way restricted free agent's qualifying offer count against the cap? If so, that could be the hold up with Forbes and Landale. It'd be weird if KBD is holding up the final signings but I guess it's possible.

  13. #163
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I asked someone who would know and, yes, KBD has one more year of two-way eligibility. So, yeah, safe to say it will be KBD with a backup of Jeffries probably.

    I know two-way contracts don't count against the cap but does a two-way restricted free agent's qualifying offer count against the cap? If so, that could be the hold up with Forbes and Landale. It'd be weird if KBD is holding up the final signings but I guess it's possible.
    From what I read, the contracts do count as cap holds equal to a one-year vet-min salary. That's why Deeks' Capulator had him at about $1.5 Million. The actual contract they offered him would be a two-way deal, though, so it's possible that after Friday, it stopped counting against the cap. If the numbers are right, then Collins' deal could've been signed with KBD's QO on the books. There were more than $100k in overage. That said, I don't think KBD's deal is actually holding up a signing directly. The Spurs are likely not using cap space for either Forbes or Landale. If they are using it to give Jock a bit more money than the rookie min (assuming the worst-case scenario where Forbes is getting the full RE), but there should be nothing stopping them at this point. They can no longer pull the QO for KBD, so if that is what's restricting the cap space, they're SOL unless KBD signs the two-way or agrees to let the Spurs pull it. You'd think they would've pulled the offer if that was a real risk, since it's not like they couldn't offer KBD a two-way afterward anyway, and they aren't so player-unfriendly as to keep him from getting a better deal elsewhere this long.

    If there's real pressure and if the Spurs have legit let KBD lock them down so hard, they could just waive Hutch and stretch him to get the room back. That's far from desirable, but it might be necessary anyway.

  14. #164
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    From what I read, the contracts do count as cap holds equal to a one-year vet-min salary. That's why Deeks' Capulator had him at about $1.5 Million. The actual contract they offered him would be a two-way deal, though, so it's possible that after Friday, it stopped counting against the cap. If the numbers are right, then Collins' deal could've been signed with KBD's QO on the books. There were more than $100k in overage. That said, I don't think KBD's deal is actually holding up a signing directly. The Spurs are likely not using cap space for either Forbes or Landale. If they are using it to give Jock a bit more money than the rookie min (assuming the worst-case scenario where Forbes is getting the full RE), but there should be nothing stopping them at this point. They can no longer pull the QO for KBD, so if that is what's restricting the cap space, they're SOL unless KBD signs the two-way or agrees to let the Spurs pull it. You'd think they would've pulled the offer if that was a real risk, since it's not like they couldn't offer KBD a two-way afterward anyway, and they aren't so player-unfriendly as to keep him from getting a better deal elsewhere this long.

    If there's real pressure and if the Spurs have legit let KBD lock them down so hard, they could just waive Hutch and stretch him to get the room back. That's far from desirable, but it might be necessary anyway.
    At this point, it’s pretty established that Hutchison has a negative trade value, and could only be a part of a trade where salary ballast is absolutely needed. Otherwise, he’ll have to be stretched. I can’t see a scenario where he comes to camp, although he may still be on the roster when it starts if they’re involved in trade talks.

  15. #165
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    He showed flashes of some good stuff in the summer league. He has great stance and consistency with his shot and started firing with some confidence. They weren't falling, necessarily, but several stayed on the rim, obviously a nice touch. But what appealed beyond the expected was some knack for cutting without the ball, or driving against hard close-outs. He competed hard for rebounds and had a good sense of rotations. Clearly is well-coached. His frame is nice and he'll add weight without sacrificing mobility and then there's some good athleticism.

    I'm pretty bullish on Joe Wieskamp. I think timvp said he has less than a 10% chance of becoming an NBA player. I think that's too low. But then I was bullish on Tre Jones, while timvp and others were not.

  16. #166
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    At this point, it’s pretty established that Hutchison has a negative trade value, and could only be a part of a trade where salary ballast is absolutely needed. Otherwise, he’ll have to be stretched. I can’t see a scenario where he comes to camp, although he may still be on the roster when it starts if they’re involved in trade talks.
    It wouldn't be able trading him for value, per se. It would be about using a trade as an opportunity to get rid of him as part of the value SA is getting back. Or as you say, he could be ballast that is more palatable for SA to send in a trade than one of the other guys making about the same money. I don't know if you keep using "stretched" as a synonym for "waive", but they aren't the same thing. Every player waived before 09/01 gets their salary stretched in terms of a real-money payment schedule. But that doesn't have to apply to salary-space. If the Spurs are planning on eating Hutch's salary, they're likely going to do it all this year rather than stretch it. I'm not grammar-policing you. But in the quote you're responding to, I'm using "stretch" to mean the actual cap-manipulation. They likely don't want to take on money in future years, but they can if things get desperate enough. But there's a clock on them doing that too. Come 09/01, they literally have no recourse but to go into the year with KBD's QO and Hutch's full salary if they don't get something done before then. They have the flexibility in camp to cut and sign guys still, but they'll being doing that with all min deals most likely, and they won't have the option of using anything but that or the RE to sign Forbes and Landale.

  17. #167
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    I'm pretty bullish on Joe Wieskamp. I think timvp said he has less than a 10% chance of becoming an NBA player. I think that's too low. But then I was bullish on Tre Jones, while timvp and others were not.
    Wrong on both accounts, my friend.

  18. #168
    Don't stop believin' Dex's Avatar
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    I'm pretty bullish on Joe Wieskamp. I think timvp said he has less than a 10% chance of becoming an NBA player. I think that's too low. But then I was bullish on Tre Jones, while timvp and others were not.
    Wrong on both accounts, my friend.

  19. #169
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    The Spurs are likely not using cap space for either Forbes or Landale. If they are using it to give Jock a bit more money than the rookie min (assuming the worst-case scenario where Forbes is getting the full RE), but there should be nothing stopping them at this point. They can no longer pull the QO for KBD, so if that is what's restricting the cap space, they're SOL unless KBD signs the two-way or agrees to let the Spurs pull it. You'd think they would've pulled the offer if that was a real risk, since it's not like they couldn't offer KBD a two-way afterward anyway, and they aren't so player-unfriendly as to keep him from getting a better deal elsewhere this long.
    Good stuff. So, yeah, if KBD's situation isn't holding them back, there must be a trade scenario out there that's stopping them from making Forbes and Landale official. I know the plane ride from Australia is long but it's not this long

    Perhaps the other thing the Spurs are looking at is perhaps signing KBD or Jeffries to one of those long-term, minimally guaranteed deals. I'd be in favor of that, tbh.

  20. #170
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    I think they may just bring all of KBD/Hutchinson/Aminu into camp and have them compete. I know Hutchinson isn't a Spurs guy but his combine stats are fantastic, maybe they think they can fix him?

  21. #171
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Wrong on both accounts, my friend.
    Wrong that you don't think much of Wieskamp? No, you said so. Frankly I don't remember exactly what you said about Jones, but I was very high on him. If you were, too, then good.

  22. #172
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    I think they may just bring all of KBD/Hutchinson/Aminu into camp and have them compete. I know Hutchinson isn't a Spurs guy but his combine stats are fantastic, maybe they think they can fix him?
    It’s just a blip, but they never had the Spurs Twitter account welcome Hutchison. The rest of the guys in the trade were welcomed. That’s really odd if they plan on bringing him into camp. He hasn’t made a good impression on his first two stops, and neither of those teams value culture like the Spurs do.

    Guys with talent and athletic ability bust out of the league every year. In every subset of humanity, including guys with NBA talent and ability, you have intolerable assholes and jerks, drama queens. He hadn’t shown enough to want t introduce that into our locker room. , KPJ had shown a lot more before Hs meltdown in Cleveland, and they wanted no part of that last year.

  23. #173
    Believe. Kurik's Avatar
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    Wrong that you don't think much of Wieskamp? No, you said so. Frankly I don't remember exactly what you said about Jones, but I was very high on him. If you were, too, then good.
    His post is on the last page not hard to find, he gave Wieskamp a 10-15% chance of being a nba player which is incredibly high compared to most 2nd rounders.

  24. #174
    Spurs fan in Las Vegas Drom John's Avatar
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    Two phrases I have difficulty with are "he's not an NBA player" and "he's not in the same league as [NBA player]" when the poster is referring to a player in the NBA, and therefore, a player that is in the same league as the other player.

    26 players drafted in the second round of the 2019-2020 draft played in the NBA last year. 87% means that a 10-15% chance of being an NBA player is incredibly low compared to most 2nd rounders. 3 of the four that didn't play are stashed foreigners.
    3 of those players (Théo Maledon, Xavier Tillman Sr., and Kenyon Martin Jr.) played among the top 250 minutes in the league. There's your 10%. Top 250 translates to 8.33 rotation.
    Last year's #41, Tre Jones, played 37 games.

    As to Wieskamp, to my eye test, with lateral movement to get off a quick 3, Joe looks like a 2019-2020 Marco Belinelli (with also similar defense). Joe's shots are more vertical than acrobatic.
    For the purposes of this post, I won't mention that I wanted Bellinelli benched for Walker.

  25. #175
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    I don't think there's an issue with saying "He's not an NBA player", meaning that he's not someone who deserves to be in the league or not someone who you expect to be on the league after his contract ends. I don't know what percentage of second-rounders get multi-year second contracts. I suspect it's actually a bit better than 10-15 percent, but maybe not. Looking at the Spurs' roster, for example, you have almost exclusively first-rounders, with Forbes, Landale, Eubanks and Jones being the guys on the main roster who don't qualify. KBD and Wieskamp are second-rounders, but as two-way guys, I don't know that either can be said to have "made it". Certainly, it hasn't always been that way, with the 2013 Spurs having Manu, Green, Mills, Blair, de Colo and Jackson as second-rounders and Baynes and Neal as undrafted players. That's well over half the roster, and none of those guys were on the team simply because the Spurs just drafted them. They all were brought in or retained after proving themselves. In other words, with the possible exception of de Colo, they were all NBA players.

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