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  1. #176
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    Sounds like the Spurs FO got played. Somebody started a rumor about being interested in Primo, and made sure the Spurs heard it, in hopes the Spurs would react, and not take Sengun. And it worked.

    To know who would be responsible for such a rumor, just look where Sengun went. Houston. They took the candy from the baby.

    The Spurs FO needs adult supervision.
    An unmentioned underrated aspect for sure.

  2. #177
    Believe. ginobilized's Avatar
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    As the shock wears off, I'm still scratching my head. Of the many questions that pop up, here are a few:

    1) Are the Spurs so independent (distrustful) in the league that they can't count on finding trade partners? Something seems broken in this dept. See Carroll, Morris, etc.

    2) Is the Primo pick indicative of a large scale master plan? Trades in the works, free agents, etc.

    3) WTF is DJ doing by publicly displaying his disapproval of this pick? Is this common for NBA players regarding their future teammates?

    4) As someone who has been waiting for the Spurs to take a big risk and shake up the stats quo, they did just that. Somehow, it feels unsatisfying at present. Are we the most spoiled fan base out there?

    5) What if Primo pans out?

  3. #178
    Spurs fan in Georgia Drom John's Avatar
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    Well, now we know how the FO targets players. They just subscribe to Pelton's scouting reports on ESPN+. The code has been cracked!
    Except Primo was 8th on Pelton's list when pick 12 arrived.
    Senjun was #1 overall, well ahead of #2 Garuba.

    Weiskamp was 2nd on the board when pick 41 arrived.
    Undrafted Justin Champagnie was on top.


    BTW, the Pelton reply by Kurik is the "Consensus" a merge of the scout-based and Pelton. Pelton alone had Weiskamp #13.

  4. #179
    Believe. Degoat's Avatar
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    As the shock wears off, I'm still scratching my head. Of the many questions that pop up, here are a few:

    1) Are the Spurs so independent (distrustful) in the league that they can't count on finding trade partners? Something seems broken in this dept. See Carroll, Morris, etc.

    2) Is the Primo pick indicative of a large scale master plan? Trades in the works, free agents, etc.

    3) WTF is DJ doing by publicly displaying his disapproval of this pick? Is this common for NBA players regarding their future teammates?

    4) As someone who has been waiting for the Spurs to take a big risk and shake up the stats quo, they did just that. Somehow, it feels unsatisfying at present. Are we the most spoiled fan base out there?

    5) What if Primo pans out?
    I was disappointed in DJ, maybe the post wasnt referring to the pick but DJ is going to be the face of the team most likely next season and it shows a lack of leadership if he was referring to Primos selection imo.

  5. #180
    GAME OVER gospursgojas's Avatar
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    What did DJ post?

  6. #181
    Believe. PhantomDashCam's Avatar
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    One thing that has served our compe ive/playoff teams well that now acts as an ever tightening noose is the idea of veteran deference.

    Culture wise, it was accepted that those with more experience, not necessarily the most talented, would play. There was a rite of passage if you will.
    But what happens when that team isn’t winning? Should the rules remain the same?

    What if the the team believes that the lack of success is directly attributed to a lack of key personnel, skills at certain positions?

    Then, you draft a prospect who not only is unlikely to offer assistance winning in the short term, but is also actually gunning for your job…

    Will the ‘culture’ still hold sway amongst the group?

    DJs post may very well be the beginning….

  7. #182
    Unstoppable TDomination's Avatar
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    This isn't the time to be doing a "draft and stash" as if we're in the mid-2000s dynasty. We needed somebody who can make an immediate impact.
    thats what annoys me most. the ONLY thing i looked forward to with being a mediocre to crap team is at least we'll draft players that we can see right away. No more draft and stash.
    Yup i was wrong.

  8. #183
    Chopper Ed Helicopter Jones's Avatar
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    Except Primo was 8th on Pelton's list when pick 12 arrived.
    Senjun was #1 overall, well ahead of #2 Garuba.

    Weiskamp was 2nd on the board when pick 41 arrived.
    Undrafted Justin Champagnie was on top.


    BTW, the Pelton reply by Kurik is the "Consensus" a merge of the scout-based and Pelton. Pelton alone had Weiskamp #13.
    Interesting. Trying to figure out the future potential of these players when they all enter the draft so raw is not a job I envy.

  9. #184
    Believe.
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    I don’t think anybody knows what the the Spurs are doing least of all PATFO. We can only pray Derozan, Mills and Gay want to leave so the organization cam move forward. Then again, with such poop leadership, they’ll just keep making poor decisions setting the franchise back. Hard to be optimistic looking forward until the leadership at the top changes.

  10. #185
    Spurs fan in Georgia Drom John's Avatar
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    Updating a post from earlier this week, Spurs' picks/Pelton's picks

    2006 Damir Markota | all 30 Pelton picks gone by 59
    2007 Tiago Splitter | Nick Fazekas
    2008 George Hill | Mario Chalmers
    2009 DeJuan Blair | DeJuan Blair (overall Pelton #1)
    2010 James Anderson | Hassan Whiteside
    2011 Kawhi Leonard | Kawhi Leonard; Cory Joseph | Shelvin Mack
    2012 Marcus Denmon | Marcus Denmon
    2013 Livio Jean-Charles | Jeff Withey
    2014 Kyle Anderson | Nikola Jokic (Pelton #4)
    2015 Nikola Milutinov | R.J. Hunter
    2016 Dejounte Murray | Zhou Qi (or Fred Van Vleet if you doubted Zhou's age)
    2017 Derrick White | Monte Morris
    2018 Lonnie Walker IV | Dzana Musa
    2019 Luka Šamanić | Dedric Lawson ; Keldon Johnson | Bol Bol ; Quinndary Weatherspoon | Shamorie Ponds
    2020 Devin Vassell | Tyrese Haliburton (Pelton #3) ; Tre Jones | never saw Pelton's big list, but Jones was #39 in 2019 before he pulled out of the draft.
    2021 Joshua Primo | Alperen Sengun (Pelton #1); Joe Weiskamp | Justin Champagnie

  11. #186
    Believe. Cardinal's Avatar
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    It's not entirely out of the question that Primo sees some playing time this year. He basically stood in the corner and launched threes for Alabama - no reason why he couldn't perform that same function in a small role off the bench. But of course Wieskamp is better equipped at the moment to fill that same role, and from a developmental standpoint it makes overwhelming sense to throw Primo into a larger role in Austin for most of the season. It's just disappointing since, as others said, one of the exciting aspects of picking in the lottery is you usually get to see those guys contribute on the main squad right away.

  12. #187
    Believe.
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    Wright stated he had the biggest upside of anyone left on their board and the reason he was ranked so low on the mocks had more to do with how he was used at Alabama. Those flashes they saw were more evident at the combine so I don't see the issue here. Given that we don't have a star yet, we need to take a swing on a prospect that's not fully developed but could potentially be something special. I don't see how given all the astute picks in the past that you would question the Spurs scouting team. Sure, you can harp on the not moving down but as Wright also stated, the intel and mocks don't always coincide so clearly they thought he might not be there if they went down to 20 for example.

  13. #188
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    "My" board was a straight theft of Pelton's.
    Why do I like the Primo pick? Primo was 14th on my list. AKA, a lottery pick.
    Why don't I like the Primo pick? At the time of the pick Primo was 8th on my board.
    Who was 7th at the time of the 12th pick? Weiskamp.

    BTW, Pelton is an extreme numbers guy. Primo at 14 means, Primo had better numbers than eight eye-tested players drafted ahead of Primo.
    Well, the most important "number" that gave Primo a boost in Pelton's model is his age. The model gives young players a big head start (that's why all the young players in the draft are rated high in his model and the old players like Duarte, Kispert and Mitc are low) -- and then subtracts for inefficiency. Primo shot threes well enough that he wasn't inefficient overall. He didn't do anything too notable number-wise other than shoot a lot of threes and do so at a decent clip but he also wasn't hemorrhaging points at a young age -- so that's enough for Pelton's model to be high on him.

  14. #189
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    While the Spurs' scouting ability should still get the benefit of the doubt in my opinion, I don't think their developmental ability should. I don't know that they've done an above-average job with a player in a long time. So no, I don't think the idea of drafting Samanic as a two-year d-league project or stowing Primo away is a good idea. That's not the way most teams develop their top prospects, and it shouldn't be the way a team with such a lack of talent does so either. Doing so suggests the team is still a contender that has a full 10-man rotation and can't afford to give minutes to developmental players. That's not even close to true anymore. Devin Booker stared 51 games and averaged 28 minutes his rookie season despite being 18 years old when the season started. Giannis was starting two weeks after his 19th birthday. If you don't think Primo is good enough to unseat ing Tre Jones, you can't draft him at 12. You just can't. Samanic should've been in the running for starting PF going into last year. Nothing about Lyles or that goddamned tiny hydra lineup should've stopped him.
    That would require Pop to change his approach, but he only has one. He still treats this team like Duncan, Manu and Parker are on it. The man only knows how to do it one way, he's never been in a different setting for his entire career as a heacoach. If we really get Collins I totally expect Pop to treat him like he's prime LaMarcus Aldridge

  15. #190
    The Great Eight Ocotillo's Avatar
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    I was just thinking, there was talk of taking Duarte at 12. Primo is almost 6 years younger than Duarte. Not that that means anything, just an observation

  16. #191
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    The only thing Murray posted was him smiling in a photo and smiley emojis

    somehow SpursTalk is equating that as “disapproval”

    that’s a huge leap and it’s misinformation that’s spreading like wildfire because you literally have pages and pages of people talking about it like it’s truth.

  17. #192
    The Great Eight Ocotillo's Avatar
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    Good to see you back Dejounte. You may have been around last night but I was still in shock after the Primo pick and kind of just stared like a deer in headlights until pick 41.

  18. #193
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    Good to see you back Dejounte. You may have been around last night but I was still in shock after the Primo pick and kind of just stared like a deer in headlights until pick 41.
    you and me the same, brother

  19. #194
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    I still can't wrap my head around this pick ...

    -Primo's value was mostly due to the thinking that if he had gone back to Alabama and played really well, he probably becomes a late lottery pick in 2022. He wasn't going to become a high lottery pick because he doesn't have the physical tools to be a high lottery pick -- but he could have gone back to Alabama and worked himself into that 10 to 15 range if all went well.

    -Primo decides to stick in the draft after elevating his stock from the middle of the second round to the end of the first or beginning of the second. Teams drafting in that range would have viewed him as a pretty good investment, with the logic being that they'd spend a ~28th pick in 2021 on a guy who had like a 50/50 shot of being a ~12th pick in 2022. That math checks out.

    -But ... the Spurs pick him instead with a late lottery pick in 2021. Trying to get that logic to work is difficult. For it to make sense, they have to be like 100% certain he is going to make that big jump. Without that big jump, there was no way he was going to be a lottery pick next year -- he would be a second rounder to undrafted without a sizeable leap forward. Picking him in the lottery this year made so little sense that Primo himself was shocked. I don't remember seeing a lottery pick who was so blown away by being picked in the lottery. I bet his agent was equally as stunned

    So, yeah, just a real head-scratcher. One scenario that may make sense is that the Spurs really wanted a developmental perimeter shooter. The two developmental perimeter shooters that stand out in this draft were Ziaire Williams and Primo. After Ziaire went tenth (a little surprising), perhaps that scared them enough to not trade back. Trading back when there's two guys you like is a lot easier than when you're down to the final player you really want.

    I've also had the thought that this could have been a Chip Engelland pick. After taking a closer look at Primo's form, it's exactly how Engelland teaches. He prepares for the shot well, has a short, repeatable stroke, releases his off-hand before the shot is released and gets full extension. I could imagine Engelland looking at Primo shooting in a gym and telling everyone that he's going to be a great shooter down the line. Then if you look at him only as a shooting prospect, his 38% three-point shooting as a freshman in the SEC when he was the youngest player in college basketball makes him an enticing pick for a shooting starved team -- especially when you add in his elite character traits. On the other hand, though, using the late lottery to take an unproven shooting prospect with little upside elsewhere in his game is not a good use of that asset.

    But bottom line, this goes down as at best a strange pick ... at worst a wasted pick. We'll see but it certainly doesn't give me confidence that the Spurs know how to pick in the lottery. Locking into one or two guys is okay when you're picking late in the first but it's a bad strategy when you're in the lottery.

  20. #195
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    I really hope he sucks for some of you the sky is falling dudes..... do your job and let them do theirs������. If he has a great summer league you’ll be d*ck riding to the highest power! Just chill....

  21. #196
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    ^the year before Obi Toppin was drafted, the Spurs were one of the few teams who worked him out. Obi was nowhere near projected as a 1st round pick that year.

    Very possible they see that kind of leap in Primo. I mean, only explanation why they’d pick him and pretty much the explanation they gave to the media.

    we will see how it goes.
    timvp

  22. #197
    Veteran bigfan's Avatar
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    Haven't seen this since Alfredrick Hughes.

  23. #198
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    I still can't wrap my head around this pick ...

    -Primo's value was mostly due to the thinking that if he had gone back to Alabama and played really well, he probably becomes a late lottery pick in 2022. He wasn't going to become a high lottery pick because he doesn't have the physical tools to be a high lottery pick -- but he could have gone back to Alabama and worked himself into that 10 to 15 range if all went well.

    -Primo decides to stick in the draft after elevating his stock from the middle of the second round to the end of the first or beginning of the second. Teams drafting in that range would have viewed him as a pretty good investment, with the logic being that they'd spend a ~28th pick in 2021 on a guy who had like a 50/50 shot of being a ~12th pick in 2022. That math checks out.

    -But ... the Spurs pick him instead with a late lottery pick in 2021. Trying to get that logic to work is difficult. For it to make sense, they have to be like 100% certain he is going to make that big jump. Without that big jump, there was no way he was going to be a lottery pick next year -- he would be a second rounder to undrafted without a sizeable leap forward. Picking him in the lottery this year made so little sense that Primo himself was shocked. I don't remember seeing a lottery pick who was so blown away by being picked in the lottery. I bet his agent was equally as stunned

    So, yeah, just a real head-scratcher. One scenario that may make sense is that the Spurs really wanted a developmental perimeter shooter. The two developmental perimeter shooters that stand out in this draft were Ziaire Williams and Primo. After Ziaire went tenth (a little surprising), perhaps that scared them enough to not trade back. Trading back when there's two guys you like is a lot easier than when you're down to the final player you really want.

    I've also had the thought that this could have been a Chip Engelland pick. After taking a closer look at Primo's form, it's exactly how Engelland teaches. He prepares for the shot well, has a short, repeatable stroke, releases his off-hand before the shot is released and gets full extension. I could imagine Engelland looking at Primo shooting in a gym and telling everyone that he's going to be a great shooter down the line. Then if you look at him only as a shooting prospect, his 38% three-point shooting as a freshman in the SEC when he was the youngest player in college basketball makes him an enticing pick for a shooting starved team -- especially when you add in his elite character traits. On the other hand, though, using the late lottery to take an unproven shooting prospect with little upside elsewhere in his game is not a good use of that asset.

    But bottom line, this goes down as at best a strange pick ... at worst a wasted pick. We'll see but it certainly doesn't give me confidence that the Spurs know how to pick in the lottery. Locking into one or two guys is okay when you're picking late in the first but it's a bad strategy when you're in the lottery.
    I guarantee that there is no way Brian was that in-depth in his thinking/approach when he made that pick. You know it and I know it, 100% guarantee

  24. #199
    Believe. Cardinal's Avatar
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    The only thing Murray posted was him smiling in a photo and smiley emojis

    somehow SpursTalk is equating that as “disapproval”

    that’s a huge leap and it’s misinformation that’s spreading like wildfire because you literally have pages and pages of people talking about it like it’s truth.
    Not to get too into the weeds on this (but I guess I will lol) but Murray seemed to be grimacing in the photo and he clearly used the "grimace" emoji. I think it's more of a stretch to say he was smiling. Regardless, he has since deleted the tweet, which I think is telling. It wasn't a good look at all from the leader of the team. It may not have been directly about disliking the Primo pick, but rather what Murray thought the pick meant about his own future with the team.

  25. #200
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    I guarantee that there is no way Brian was that in-depth in his thinking/approach when he made that pick. You know it and I know it, 100% guarantee
    How do you know again? Indulge us please...

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