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  1. #501
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Name one team that has. It’s literally the only credit given to this franchise, albeit grudgingly, by the nba media. I mean, Keldon, drafted at #29, has the 9th highest WS in his class. yes, the Spurs have their duds, but that would also be a better % than other clubs.
    The NBA media constantly declares whomever the Spurs draft as the "steal of the draft". It's more of a sign of the media's disinterest that they save the Spurs have a great scouting staff. Moreover, we aren't talking about the team's scouting in the first place. Why the Spurs have had success scouting guys late in the draft is a more nuanced discussion that has to do with things like their drafting priorities. They actually are good (though not all that close to the best recently) at scouting at the end of the first.

    We're talking about their record developing players. There are multiple ways to get at investigating the idea that the Spurs have a good track record of developing guys, but a relatively simple way would be to look at Most Improved Player voting. Due to the Spurs stashing guys in the d-league, this is an award that should be biased for their players. A player that goes from being relegated to the Toros to being a rotation player on the big club looks like more of an improvement than a guy just getting more NBA minutes. With that in mind, let's go over the Spurs who have ranked in the top-10 in that category. (If you're wondering why top-10, it's because those awards very quickly run into single-point gatherers who only got votes from their local media members, but the time you get to the top-20, it's often a tie among guys who weren't close to the actual contenders for the award.)

    2010 -- George Hill a 2(T): Starting here, because George Hill was tied for second place after earning a rotation spot in his sop re season. He was an older rookie who arguably had his role depressed during his first year, but still, it's nice that he got recognition

    2012 -- Danny Green 9(T): I'm obviously a Green homer and think he should have been higher on the list. I have said on multiple occasions that I think the Spurs' role in improving Green's game is often overstated, but we can have that argument some other time. Let's count this as a win.

    2014 -- Patty Mills 9: Mills found his way into the playoff rotation by the end of the season. He only got 14 points in the votes and honestly played better the following season. He hadn't improved as much as he'd just gotten more opportunity, since he was an offensive wizard internationally well before this.

    2016 -- Kawhi Leonard 10: Honestly Leonard got screwed the previous season where he established himself as a star. But it's a regular season award, and Leonard broke out in the playoffs.

    And that's it. Basically every other year for seven seasons you had players crack the top 10 in voting for an award that apparently the media fully expects the Spurs to dominate at. Even giving the Spurs full credit for developing all four of these guys, it's trivially easy to look at those same lists and find teams that have bodied the Spurs in this category. There are many seasons where teams will have multiple players in the top-10, which the Spurs haven't done in any of the seasons I looked at. Some of these votes are undoubtedly driven by narrative, like how DeRozan will very likely get MIP votes despite actually playing worse this year than he did last year. But there's not actually an obvious bias in the votes. Denver, Utah, Phoenix, the pre-Leonard Clippers, Atlanta, Sacramento, and Toronto have as many or more players in the top 10 (and not at mostly 9 or 10 like SA was) without being driven by hype.

    When you look at Spurs players with a generous lens, they don't look like the mediocre bunch they mostly are. Even Johnson wasn't the best guy on the board at 29 going by career win-shares like you were. He's played a lot of minutes and if anything has also seen his WS/48 drop since his peak during the bubble. I don't look at his story or White's or especially Lonnie's (and I'm a huge Walker fan) and see them as successes of the Spurs' development plan. Each has shown improvement in some areas while continuing to disappoint or newly disappointing in others. The Spurs having one player with a legitimate (not hardly secure) All-Star case in the past 10 or so drafts isn't something to brag about.

  2. #502
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    from what time period? and i think you'd have to narrow it down to front offices that have been around a while as well rather than just a franchise.
    The shorter the time period gets, the worse it looks. I also don't think it matters what the Spurs did 20 years ago, since most FOs can't afford to be judged by that long of a timeline. That their best developmental accomplishment in the last eight years only became a clearly positive starter after his fifth year in the league doesn't speak well to their developmental chops.

  3. #503
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    Interestingly the second article has the Suns 3rd worse. Yet they are now contenders based on getting it relatively right twice in a short time frame.
    Look at GS- they had a lot of bad drafts up to Steph and even after.

  4. #504
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    The shorter the time period gets, the worse it looks. I also don't think it matters what the Spurs did 20 years ago, since most FOs can't afford to be judged by that long of a timeline. That their best developmental accomplishment in the last eight years only became a clearly positive starter after his fifth year in the league doesn't speak well to their developmental chops.
    I don’t need twenty years���� Show me all these better front offices. Everyone makes mistakes but these boys do a lot with a little.

  5. #505
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    Brad Stevens was the second coming…… we know how that ended��

  6. #506
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    I like a lot of Primo's game but one thing is clear: he's a turnover waiting to happen because he's a poor passer. He's forces passes into overly tight windows that often wont even lead the recieving teammate much opportunity to score.

    Good news is this should be easily fixed with simple decision making repi ion.

  7. #507
    Kang Trill Clinton's Avatar
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    I like a lot of Primo's game but one thing is clear: he's a turnover waiting to happen because he's a poor passer. He's forces passes into overly tight windows that often wont even lead the recieving teammate much opportunity to score.

    Good news is this should be easily fixed with simple decision making repi ion.
    I agree. The TO's will reduce the more he plays with this group of guys.

  8. #508
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    I like a lot of Primo's game but one thing is clear: he's a turnover waiting to happen because he's a poor passer. He's forces passes into overly tight windows that often wont even lead the recieving teammate much opportunity to score.

    Good news is this should be easily fixed with simple decision making repi ion.
    His overall passing is good. He’s made some passes from, or to the perimeter that take my breath away.

    He’s just really inexperienced at the PnR, like DJ was when he was younger. I’d say probably 75% of his TOs come from that play. Young players always think pass, but you need to make them pay if they clog the lane by rising up for that 10-12 foot jumper.

  9. #509
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    I attribute his mistakes to experience at this level, hopefully it starts to slow down & clicks for him. I see the potential but it needs to be cultivated!

  10. #510
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    Primo didn’t have a very good game last night nor the game before last. He had some impressive passes, but plays still become stagnant at times with the ball in his hands. He obviously needs a lot more time at Austin. Pop was trying to make him a PG at times (well he’s I think successful with DJM coz I thought Derrick should be the main ball handler with his skills but doesn’t have the heart, sorry). Or maybe it was just lack of players without Derrick, Tre out on Covid protocol. Or Pop’s toying with Primo playing a Derozan role as SF/facilitator. But obviously he’s still very raw and needs more experience in Austin.

  11. #511
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    Primo didn’t have a very good game last night nor the game before last. He had some impressive passes, but plays still become stagnant at times with the ball in his hands. He obviously needs a lot more time at Austin. Pop was trying to make him a PG at times (well he’s I think successful with DJM coz I thought Derrick should be the main ball handler with his skills but doesn’t have the heart, sorry). Or maybe it was just lack of players without Derrick, Tre out on Covid protocol. Or Pop’s toying with Primo playing a Derozan role as SF/facilitator. But obviously he’s still very raw and needs more experience in Austin.
    Exactly. It’s as if he should be working on specific aspects of his game in the g and applying it up on the main stage when given the opportunity.

    Such a crazy concept. Hard to believe that might be better than simply being forced into bad decisions because he’s not ready for the main squad just yet.

  12. #512
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    This guy is basically a Kobe or Garnett as far age coming into the league. He skipped his senior year of high school. This year he should be playing his first year of college. Instead, he's playing his first year as a pro. He has a bright future. Other players that came to the NBA at his age (albeit without college experience that he has) took some time to become great players.

  13. #513
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    I attribute his mistakes to experience at this level, hopefully it starts to slow down & clicks for him. I see the potential but it needs to be cultivated!
    Precisely why he doesn't need to be spending his time in the g-league if and when they resme games.

  14. #514
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    Kid just turned 19 and is supposed to be a Freshman in college right now. He’ll be fine.

  15. #515
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    He is doing fine little G League a little time with the big boy club and a whole bunch of time working out with trainers in SA. People forget he is so young and his one year in college all he would do is run to a corner and shoot which he did well. I love them having him play point in G League as it will only help his development. In fact next year I would like for him to be the PG for the second unit as I think Tre time has come and gone with zero outside shooting he can easily be replaced.

    Again it will be interesting on who we draft this draft is very heavy on SG/SF so if we draft another SG or SF it will be interesting to see what happens.

  16. #516
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Interestingly the second article has the Suns 3rd worse. Yet they are now contenders based on getting it relatively right twice in a short time frame.
    Look at GS- they had a lot of bad drafts up to Steph and even after.
    Suns didn’t become a Finals team because of Booker and Ayton. They had both the year before, and finished 9th in the WC. They became a Finals team because they traded for CP3.

  17. #517
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    Suns didn’t become a Finals team because of Booker and Ayton. They had both the year before, and finished 9th in the WC. They became a Finals team because they traded for CP3.

  18. #518
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    The Toronto Raptors remain the best drafting team in the NBA
    TD21 tell us why this analysis is wrong.

  19. #519
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    Actually he's right. Suns have a lot of young talent and a good coach but CP3 has provided the cohesion and leadership that you want from a vet. I wish the Spurs had that type of vet on the floor to corral our young guys.

  20. #520
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    The rubber meets the road.

    Draft Year Player Draft Position WS Class Position Net +/- position
    2014 Kyle Anderson #30 25.3 #9 +21
    2015 Mulitinov DNP
    2016 Dejounte Murray #29 12.4 #11 +18
    2017 Derrick White #29 12.9 #12 +17
    2018 LW IV #18 1.4 #38 -20
    2019 Samanic 19 0.1 #47 -28
    2019 Keldon Johnson #29 6.0 #10 +19
    2020 Devin Vassell 11 3.0 12 -1

    I debated about doing Vassell, because there really isn’t enough data for a good WS comparison. He’s in about his correct position, but I’m thinking he will climb up like Keldon did. His WS for this season is 1.5, the same as all of last season. Not doing last years class. If you look at them sorted by WSs, 3 of the top 5 picks are a dead at the end of the class, including second rounders. Way too early to open the oven and take a look.

    So, you have one guy who never came over, one swing for the fences who busted, one real disappointment (LW IV) one guy early on performing about at his spot, and four picks who outperformed their spots by an average of just under 19 positions. Considering most here think that Primo and Vassell are the best of the lot, I’d say that since the last championship, we’ve done pretty damned well.

  21. #521
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    He's clearly going to be a forward in the NBA
    Unless he's not done growing, he's a 2.5 defensively.

    Pop has to ask himself where the team's future is in, because guys like Tre Jones who MIGHT be decent rotation guards shouldn't be getting the developmental priority. The White/Murray starter pairing shouldn't be considered the backbone of the franchise. Pop's going to have to accept that a bad team doesn't become a good team by low-ceiling players improving their chemistry. There are too many low-ceiling guys walking around like core pieces right now. There's no pecking order that should be sending Primo anywhere. The Spurs are rebuilding, and they should act like it.
    Exactly. White and Poeltl are too old and low-ceiling to be viewed as long term core pieces (unless they luck into Banchero and he's an almost immediate All-Star caliber player). They contribute to this team being just good enough to avoid having the best odds at adding true long term core pieces.

    Right now, only Murray deserves that designation. Walker IV is a replacement player who should not be retained, Johnson looks like a future 7th man, Vassell looks like a future 4th starter and it's too soon to say with Primo.


    TD21 tell us why this analysis is wrong.
    At the Raptors fanboys on this board.

    As I've said ad nauseam, they've been on a run of incredible luck. They've accomplished a fraction of what the Spurs have and gained their undeserved reputation thanks to them, yet receive far more adulation thanks to their buddies in the media constantly slurping them.

    For nearly two decades, most media and fans were convinced the Spurs were geniuses because of a fair bit of luck themselves . . . how smart have they looked post all-time franchise player/core?
    Last edited by TD 21; 01-13-2022 at 05:18 PM.

  22. #522
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    The rubber meets the road.

    Draft Year Player Draft Position WS Class Position Net +/- position
    2014 Kyle Anderson #30 25.3 #9 +21
    2015 Mulitinov DNP
    2016 Dejounte Murray #29 12.4 #11 +18
    2017 Derrick White #29 12.9 #12 +17
    2018 LW IV #18 1.4 #38 -20
    2019 Samanic 19 0.1 #47 -28
    2019 Keldon Johnson #29 6.0 #10 +19
    2020 Devin Vassell 11 3.0 12 -1

    I debated about doing Vassell, because there really isn’t enough data for a good WS comparison. He’s in about his correct position, but I’m thinking he will climb up like Keldon did. His WS for this season is 1.5, the same as all of last season. Not doing last years class. If you look at them sorted by WSs, 3 of the top 5 picks are a dead at the end of the class, including second rounders. Way too early to open the oven and take a look.

    So, you have one guy who never came over, one swing for the fences who busted, one real disappointment (LW IV) one guy early on performing about at his spot, and four picks who outperformed their spots by an average of just under 19 positions. Considering most here think that Primo and Vassell are the best of the lot, I’d say that since the last championship, we’ve done pretty damned well.
    This doesn't speak at all to their developmental staff. As I said before, the Spurs are good at drafting and for a few clear reasons tend to draft guys that teams pass up due to different priorities. That most of these players did not show a notable level of improvement over their time in SA is a bigger deal than they being better than the players drafted around them (when they actually are). We were specifically talking about the d-league allocation, and potentially drafting decent prospects doesn't negate that. It's great if the front office is proficient at getting Pop and the coaches good players, but there's much, much less reason to believe they've been getting a lot out of them.

  23. #523
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Unless he's not done growing, he's a 2.5 defensively.



    Exactly. White and Poeltl are too old and low-ceiling to be viewed as long term core pieces (unless they luck into Banchero and he's an almost immediate All-Star caliber player). They contribute to this team being just good enough to avoid having the best odds at adding true long term core pieces.

    Right now, only Murray deserves that designation. Walker IV is a replacement player who should not be retained, Johnson looks like a future 7th man, Vassell looks like a future 4th starter and it's too soon to say with Primo.




    At the Raptors fanboys on this board.

    As I've said ad nauseam, they've been on a run of incredible luck. They've accomplished a fraction of what the Spurs have and gained their undeserved reputation thanks to them, yet receive far more adulation thanks to their buddies in the media constantly slurping them.

    For nearly two decades, most media and fans were convinced the Spurs were geniuses because of a fair bit of luck themselves . . . how smart have they looked post all-time franchise player/core?
    I couldn't give more of a about the Raptors, I just find your weird obsession and total inability to give them any type of credit whatsoever very funny, tbh.

    So now, it isn't that the draft well, it's just that they got lucky?

  24. #524
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    I couldn't give more of a about the Raptors, I just find your weird obsession and total inability to give them any type of credit whatsoever very funny, tbh.

    So now, it isn't that the draft well, it's just that they got lucky?
    It's like it makes some of you feel better about the S bag fiasco if you pretend some geniuses outfoxed the Spurs, as opposed to what really happened which was an unprecedented confluence of luck.

    I've long said I strongly believe luck is by far the biggest factor in being a president/GM. If you really think they had an idea Siakam and VanVleet would become the players they have, you're delusional.

  25. #525
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    It's like it makes some of you feel better about the S bag fiasco if you pretend some geniuses outfoxed the Spurs, as opposed to what really happened which was an unprecedented confluence of luck.

    I've long said I strongly believe luck is by far the biggest factor in being a president/GM. If you really think they had an idea Siakam and VanVleet would become the players they have, you're delusional.
    They definitely outfoxed the spurs (giving up zero players they actually wanted, not taking on any bad contracts, getting Green’s expiring contract), but that says more about the spurs than it does the raptors.

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