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  1. #26
    Veteran gambit1990's Avatar
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    spurs are after raymond felton.

  2. #27
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    I don’t know how useful going CIA during free agency really is. Being secretive doesn’t give you any advantage… does it? If a player wants to come, they’ll come.
    If the Spurs are interested in THT, they'd want that to be a secret until the last possible moment. The less time the Lakers have to figure out the short-term and long-term math of how to match a big offer sheet without entering luxury tax , the better.

    Just to be clear, you’re not advocating for signing BOTH Collins and Markannen, right?
    Yeah, it's either Collins or Markannen. Markannen and THT might work though, depending on how the numbers come in.

  3. #28
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    How much would Bobby Portis cost and does he fit? Or would y’all prefer just re-signing Dieng?
    I'll list my thoughts on other free agents that didn't make the article:

    Bobby Portis - I've been a fan for a while but I wouldn't target him this summer. He's too much of a buy-high ... and the Spurs wouldn't sign a guy who punched a teammate in the face and broke his jaw right now anyways

    Dieng - It's difficult to say what his market will be but using leftover cash on him in Step 8 would be fine. For example, a one-year, $5-8M is okay. For me to get behind a multi-year deal, it'd have to be small. Even $5M a year is too much even if his outside shooting would help.

    Keita Bates-Diop - Giving him the Drew Eubanks special (three years near the minimum with most of it unguaranteed) would be ideal. For an 11th man with enough upside that he might become an 9th man, that would be a good contract. I wouldn't go much higher than that, though.

    Gary Trent Jr - His shooting would be helpful ... but not at the $16M per year he's bound to get. He doesn't do anything else well enough outside of shooting to invest highly in, IMO.

    Kendrick Nunn, Bryn Forbes, Terence Davis - Eh, no thx.

    More players who I'd be happy with on one year deals: DANNY GREEN, Exum, Korkmaz, JaMychal Green.

    Can't think of any others off the top of my head...


    Edit: Oh yeah, no to Zach Collins. He wasn't good before the injuries. Now his career is probably over. I don't even know why he makes lists of players the Spurs will be interested in. He's not worth more than an unguaranteed minimum deal at this point.
    Last edited by timvp; 08-02-2021 at 12:15 AM.

  4. #29
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Worth noting, these days teams only have two days to match on a restricted free agent. But the clock starts ticking at the end of the moratorium, which is Friday at 12:01AM.

    So, if the Spurs agree to give a free agent an offer sheet tomorrow afternoon, that money will be locked up for a little less than a week. Not terrible but not exactly ideal. Then again, the Spurs have so much cap room that it shouldn't stop them from being able to maneuver -- even if a big chunk is frozen.

  5. #30
    Veteran JeffDuncan's Avatar
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    Why would a rebuilding team want to max Collins? Or anybody? What’s the point?

    The Spurs have no star like Young to team Collins with. If you max Collins it implies Collins, himself, is the star. He may be a good player but he isn’t that good. He would not be our star, to lead us to the finals. So again, what’s the point?

    Also, if you overpay a player how will you get rid of him if he doesn’t work out? Teams won’t be eager to take a contract that’s an obvious overpay.

    I give you our own example, DDR. He was a flop as our star — two losing seasons in a row — and his contract was a gross overpay. And even after that contract has expired we’re STILL having trouble getting rid of him. A cautionary tale. We need to learn from it.

    We don’t need any high dollar contracts on a team that MIGHT have a .500 record and that MIGHT make the playoffs. Maybe.

    As it stands, the Spurs need useful players, on reasonable contracts, that should be tradeable pretty easily, as the need arises. Anything more would be a waste of money, and we’d only be setting ourselves up for future problems (like trying to get rid of DDR.)

    The Spurs are treading water until they find their star. Save the max contract idea for the star, and players to team with him.

  6. #31
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    Worth noting, these days teams only have two days to match on a restricted free agent. But the clock starts ticking at the end of the moratorium, which is Friday at 12:01AM.

    So, if the Spurs agree to give a free agent an offer sheet tomorrow afternoon, that money will be locked up for a little less than a week. Not terrible but not exactly ideal. Then again, the Spurs have so much cap room that it shouldn't stop them from being able to maneuver -- even if a big chunk is frozen.
    Might explain a tweet I saw...

  7. #32
    Believe. Degoat's Avatar
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    Worth noting, these days teams only have two days to match on a restricted free agent. But the clock starts ticking at the end of the moratorium, which is Friday at 12:01AM.

    So, if the Spurs agree to give a free agent an offer sheet tomorrow afternoon, that money will be locked up for a little less than a week. Not terrible but not exactly ideal. Then again, the Spurs have so much cap room that it shouldn't stop them from being able to maneuver -- even if a big chunk is frozen.
    Wow they need to change that lol having to wait until the moratorium ends before knowing if that space will be used or not because of a restricted free agent offer is made is crazy to me

  8. #33
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Why would a rebuilding team want to max Collins? Or anybody? What’s the point?

    The Spurs have no star like Young to team Collins with. If you max Collins it implies Collins, himself, is the star. He may be a good player but he isn’t that good. He would not be our star, to lead us to the finals. So again, what’s the point?
    Fair questions. My rebuttals:

    1) You can't pause your franchise while waiting for a star because he could pop up tomorrow or not for 20 years. You need to keep trying to acquire high-end talent. Doing so actually helps your chances of getting a star, I'd argue. (Stars want to play with good players, good players can be traded for stars in the right cir stances, etc.)

    2) Collins is young enough and has enough upside that there's a pretty good shot he'll be worth his contract. It's a gamble worth taking, IMO. Non-injury downsides are somewhat tame.

    3) The Spurs are in a unique position in that they have a lot of cap space in a year when not many teams do. They have to try to take advantage of it. They can try to roll the cap space forward but there will come a time when it disappears as young players (KJ, possible Lonnie, etc.) eat into it. This cap space was only created because the Spurs are transitioning between cores and is fleeting.

  9. #34
    Govt, stay away!
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    Don’t agree on Zach Collins, agree on maxing John literally minute 1.

  10. #35
    Veteran JeffDuncan's Avatar
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    How much would Bobby Portis cost and does he fit? ...
    Portis’ last contract put his price at $3.8 M. He had a contract, one year, of 15 M before he slugged Mirotic. Don’t know what he’s worth in free agency now. I think that the 15 M which Portis once got is still his limit now, in a sane world. If somebody were interested they might try 7.6 M to see the reaction, and go from there.

    Portis was listed at PF throughout his career, until the Bucks listed him at C last season. He’d fit, on the Spurs, since both those positions need shoring up.

    The Mirotic incident was in October 2017, which will be four years ago when the season starts. Ancient history. All he had last season with the Bucks was four technical fouls. The Spurs should have good communication with Coach Bud to check how Portis behaves now, in practice and the locker room, if they’re interested.

  11. #36
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of Collins on a max. Or portz in a trade. It's just not ideal to have a max player who is likely a third wheel option like Tobias Harris. But as others have said, your betting on Collins age and more so that on his third or fourth year of the deal, the NBA salary cap goes up. I might be wise to front load it so your betting on his improvements and the cap going up.

    Lauri, it makes sense fit wise. A poison contact like 2 for 40 Mil might be a good gamble. He fits what the team needs to improve.

    Another target is Buddy Hield. He could be had for Walker and Spurs could still get a Kings first pick. Kings would want out of the contract.

  12. #37
    Veteran BG_Spurs_Fan's Avatar
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    I'm fine with overpaying for Collins. His max is going to start at about $28 mil, it's not like it'll one of those 40+ mil albatross contracts. Better to swing and hope on someone's upside, than treading water when you have a lot of cap space or trying to moneyball. Don't sign players to contracts with the intent to trade them down the line, it rarely works. Collins's contract would be only for 3+1 years anyway and with the Spurs cap sheet looking clean right now it won't stop them from extending the players they want to keep. Low risk unless he gets a bad injury. That said, I doubt Spurs would be the only team offering him the max even if Atlanta are not prepared to match. Dallas might also do it and he'd be crazy not to go there. I still think Atlanta would match though. They can afford to keep him and max out Young as well.

    Markkanen... I don't know, same logic I guess. Bet on his upside, or bet on his fit allowing other players to grow. Worst case they'd be headed to the lottery, which should be expected anyway, even with Collins imo.

    THT I don't see the fit but it'd be fun just to the Lakers.

    I'm not a fan of taking on bad contracts for late picks. Spurs have never operated this way and I doubt they'd start doing it now. Why take on $20 mil for Favors for a late pick, instead of offering a similar $10 mil per to someone like Hart, Trent Jr, Boucher, etc. who are proven NBA players. A late first isn't that.

    It'll also be interesting if they offer Lonnie an extension or wait until he becomes a RFA. Even if they lowball him and he doesn't sign it, it'd be telling.

  13. #38
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of using an age cut-off to signing a player. You don't win by having a bunch of guys the same age. Obviously there's a huge difference between Tim and Kawhi, but Duncan is six years older than Parker. I don't think there's anything wrong with making investments in 30ish guys if they add to the overall structure of the team. I certainly can't square this idea of forcing the team to be young with the assumption that Primo is going to go to Austin. I think the Spurs should really consider if they think Eubanks is a rotational center. If they don't think so, they should re-up Dieng to a multi-year deal, and stop splitting their minutes. Porter's age doesn't bother me either. If he's a starting PF in today's league, they should put him on their list. The Spurs should try to be a functional team, and especially when it comes to supporting players, vets are a big part of that. The team should definitely thin out their young players to make room for those vets. They should keep all of those players and then mess with the minutes or touches.

    The team's broad goal should be to create a good developmental environment for their young players. They seem to think, and I agree, that such an environment balances out a compe ive outlook with chances to give young players roles of improve their skills. In my mind, the only way you balance that correctly is by identifying a small group of top prospects and converting the rest into future value. That is to say, I see multiple spots in the rotation where I'm willing to bring in a vet (even one older than 27) to fill the spot unless the young players have it locked down. In particular, there are large holes at backup PG (assuming White and Murray still both start or one is traded) and C in addition to starting PF. I want the Spurs to acquire vets for all three spots. That leaves seven rotation spots for younger guys. The rotation would be thus:

    Murray, Vet, Jones
    White, Walker, Primo
    Johnson, Vassell, KBD, Wieskamp, (Jeffries)
    Vet, Samanic
    Poeltl, Vet, Eubanks

    If someone like Samanic shows he's a starting PF, then you start him. But he should be starting over a rotation-caliber PF, not a rookie or min guy. I want Jones to get the backup PG spot by beating out a guy like Neto, if not Payne. If that makes those guys want to move on, you can trade them then. But the Spurs owe it to themselves to get good players on good contract, not the best players who'll take one-year deals.

    EDIT: I guess no one saw Vassell wasn't on the list? Okay, well he basically kicks Jeffries off the team then. I wouldn't support not signing one of those three vets to keep him on. If anything it highlights the point I was trying to make.
    Last edited by Chinook; 08-02-2021 at 01:39 AM.

  14. #39
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    It'll also be interesting if they offer Lonnie an extension or wait until he becomes a RFA. Even if they lowball him and he doesn't sign it, it'd be telling.
    Unlike White last year, extending Walker is a gamble that's more likely to pay off than not. That's because his projected cap hold is higher than White's was, while his play warrants a smaller contract. If Walker gets anything less than $59M/4 or $43M/3, then extending him actually adds money to the projected cap space versus keeping his hold on the books. Personally, I don't think Walker can expect more than Kuzma's extension ($39M/3). So if they want to keep him, they should be able to. Again, though, While I focus mainly on Murray, Walker's also a guy who the Spurs have to decide on. From my perspective, he's still among the top two or three highest ceilings on the team and should be a featured player. But if the Spurs feel about him the way they treat him, they should trade him. He's just taking up minutes Vassell and Primo need if they aren't going to actually play him.

  15. #40
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    I think people are getting too hung up on the 'max' phrase. Not every max is created equal because of the differences in years of experience.

    Years 0-6 are 25% of the cap, years 7-9 are 30%, and 10+ is 35%.

    Collins would be starting at age 24 (birthday in September). His first year would be 28.1 or so and the final year 4 (if he opted in provided it was a 3+1) would be about 32.3. Tobias Harris next year will be making 35.99 million at age 29.

    So Harris will be making about 8 million more next year even if the Spurs gave Collins the most they could absolutely give.

  16. #41
    Veteran BG_Spurs_Fan's Avatar
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    My shock scenario would be paying Fournier something like 4/80 and play him at SF.

  17. #42
    Believe.
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    I think people are getting too hung up on the 'max' phrase. Not every max is created equal because of the differences in years of experience.

    Years 0-6 are 25% of the cap, years 7-9 are 30%, and 10+ is 35%.

    Collins would be starting at age 24 (birthday in September). His first year would be 28.1 or so and the final year 4 (if he opted in provided it was a 3+1) would be about 32.3. Tobias Harris next year will be making 35.99 million at age 29.

    So Harris will be making about 8 million more next year even if the Spurs gave Collins the most they could absolutely give.
    It's not about giving max, it's about the salary you give him.
    I like Collins and would give him a fair contract but that's unlikely since Atlanta would match. He's an above average starter player.
    So if you set the bar at Collins and another Spurs player perform equally or better than Collins, their agent will demand similar contract.

  18. #43
    Believe.
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    It's not about giving max, it's about the salary you give him.
    I like Collins and would give him a fair contract but that's unlikely since Atlanta would match. He's an above average starter player.
    So if you set the bar at Collins and another Spurs player perform equally or better than Collins, their agent will demand similar contract.
    you need to spend the cap space anyway, so its either going to collins or someone else. the issue with this FA class is somneone else is pretty bad (ie lauri, derozan)

  19. #44
    Veteran 99 Problems's Avatar
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    It’s Happening, albeit slowly……

  20. #45
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    Fire the FO and retire the already retired in place HC and start over.

  21. #46
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    The only way the Spurs can move forward and become successful again is for the FO to get creative, and that's something I don't believe this current FO is capable of.

    They seem stuck in their old ways at doing things when they had the big 3 to build around in which non of that will work under the current cir stances.

    Until we get a fresh new FO, or the current ones somehow surprise us I believe that we are just going to be stuck in the mud.

  22. #47
    OG Spurs fan TheChillFactor's Avatar
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    thank you LJ

  23. #48
    Veteran BG_Spurs_Fan's Avatar
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    A topic for discussion : if the Spurs hypothetically manage to land John Collins, how would you use the rest of the cap space and the room exception?

  24. #49
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    Thanks Timvp. Agree with offering Collins the max contract. Not necessarily agree with limiting the age to 27. I mean CP3 was just in the Finals, so it depends. PATFO should do ALL diligence to land a caliber player however, S&T included, and the probability of parting with some guys, like Murray, Poeltl. I rather keep White as the main PG.

  25. #50
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    A topic for discussion : if the Spurs hypothetically manage to land John Collins, how would you use the rest of the cap space and the room exception?
    My 2 cents- if we landed Collins, to me, that signals a win now approach (or at least a compete now approach). So I'd want to use my remaining space and even white or DJ + maybe future/other assets to to go after another high level starter at the 2 or 3 spot. I'm not sure who that would be for sure...maybe McCollum or someone on that level..

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