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  1. #401
    Chopper Ed Helicopter Jones's Avatar
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    Here is some context: they originally used the MLE on DeMarre Carroll whom they bought out for 99 cents on the dollar 6 months later. When Morris became available they restructured Carroll to 3yrs, 21mm so they could give Morris the MLE. In order to facilitate that Bertans had to be dumped for a TPE.

    Morris absolutely fked us but PATFO holds accountability here sacrificing a young trade chip in Bertans and throwing 21mm away on Carroll, someone who basically never played for the team. If they didn’t offer a washed Carroll the MLE in the first place we could have retained Bertans and used him as a trade chip or let him walk a year later if someone was willing to overpay.
    Even the biggest apologists can't really argue that the Carroll signing, as well as McNugs, weren't the FO's best moves. McDermott, 3/10. Carroll, minus 10 out of 10.

  2. #402
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    Even the biggest apologists can't really argue that the Carroll signing, as well as McNugs, weren't the FO's best moves. McDermott, 3/10. Carroll, minus 10 out of 10.
    I’m most intrigued about Carroll and what went wrong. The guy was on the fking moon when he got an extra year to rework his deal, so damn thankful on twitter praising PATFO…. Even he knew he was done. He wasn’t even good enough to get burn at the 3/4 for 10 mins a night…. positions we were fking desperate at.

  3. #403
    Veteran J_Paco's Avatar
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    I’m saying we under valued him by giving him away for nothing.
    They gave him away under the impression that an upgrade was coming in. Unfortunately, the Morris twins are snakes and reneged on the deal. happens.

  4. #404
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    How folks simultaneously lambast the Spurs for cutting bait from Bertans and signing McDermott astounds me. I wish the Spurs could've gotten some good asset for Davis, sure. And the Carroll deal was definitely a hindsight mistake. But:

    A) If Carroll hadn't fallen off, he and Morris were EXACTLY the kind of players folks complained about the Spurs not having for years. Fans acting like the deal made no sense now are likely the same fans who wanted to trade two firsts for Stanley Johnson or Taurean ( ing) Prince in 2019. The Spurs were not perfect (they burned one of those two firsts on Samanic FFS), but they didn't do that bad of a job given their limited information. I wish they could've predicted the future, but Carroll played well and wasn't old enough to expect him to drop off completely.

    B) They traded away Bertans and then signed a comparable player for less money later. In the same way that Carroll was a surprise bust for the Spurs, Bertans was a massive bust for Washington after his contract year. The Spurs did good by just not paying that. To put it into perspective: The Spurs spent less money on McDermott, Carroll and Lyles than the Wizards committed to Bertans. Washington did a really good job getting out of that contract. But that's not a situation the Spurs want a do-over for.

  5. #405
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    How folks simultaneously lambast the Spurs for cutting bait from Bertans and signing McDermott astounds me. I wish the Spurs could've gotten some good asset for Davis, sure. And the Carroll deal was definitely a hindsight mistake. But:

    A) If Carroll hadn't fallen off, he and Morris were EXACTLY the kind of players folks complained about the Spurs not having for years. Fans acting like the deal made no sense now are likely the same fans who wanted to trade two firsts for Stanley Johnson or Taurean ( ing) Prince in 2019. The Spurs were not perfect (they burned one of those two firsts on Samanic FFS), but they didn't do that bad of a job given their limited information. I wish they could've predicted the future, but Carroll played well and wasn't old enough to expect him to drop off completely.

    B) They traded away Bertans and then signed a comparable player for less money later. In the same way that Carroll was a surprise bust for the Spurs, Bertans was a massive bust for Washington after his contract year. The Spurs did good by just not paying that. To put it into perspective: The Spurs spent less money on McDermott, Carroll and Lyles than the Wizards committed to Bertans. Washington did a really good job getting out of that contract. But that's not a situation the Spurs want a do-over for.
    So I agree Marcus Morris actually gave that team solid playoff hopes he was the perfect player to slide between LMA and DDR. The Carroll signing being hindsight is arguable. It’s still puzzling he was never played and subsequently bought out so soon.

    We can only assume he was washed but we didn’t even give him any minutes when he played a position of desperate need. I can’t give PATFO a pass for signing and buying out a player within months, especially when that contract had further negative implications on a young player with some upside who had value. It’s not always hindsight for the experts making the decisions at the time... it’s that they made a bad decision.

  6. #406
    Veteran GAustex's Avatar
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    Carroll played a tiny bit
    He could barely run
    He could not jump
    He fouled folks
    He moved like a tin man
    It was pathetic signing
    I think the Spurs finally have paid that stiff off
    That whole saga was pop at his worst

  7. #407
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    How folks simultaneously lambast the Spurs for cutting bait from Bertans and signing McDermott astounds me. I wish the Spurs could've gotten some good asset for Davis, sure. And the Carroll deal was definitely a hindsight mistake. But:

    A) If Carroll hadn't fallen off, he and Morris were EXACTLY the kind of players folks complained about the Spurs not having for years. Fans acting like the deal made no sense now are likely the same fans who wanted to trade two firsts for Stanley Johnson or Taurean ( ing) Prince in 2019. The Spurs were not perfect (they burned one of those two firsts on Samanic FFS), but they didn't do that bad of a job given their limited information. I wish they could've predicted the future, but Carroll played well and wasn't old enough to expect him to drop off completely.

    B) They traded away Bertans and then signed a comparable player for less money later. In the same way that Carroll was a surprise bust for the Spurs, Bertans was a massive bust for Washington after his contract year. The Spurs did good by just not paying that. To put it into perspective: The Spurs spent less money on McDermott, Carroll and Lyles than the Wizards committed to Bertans. Washington did a really good job getting out of that contract. But that's not a situation the Spurs want a do-over for.
    wasnt carroll a panic signing? or didnt they suddenly change his agreed upon contract to give him more money/years at the time? vaguely recall something like that.

    and yes, they could have gotten more for bertans than a trade exception

  8. #408
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    wasnt carroll a panic signing? or didnt they suddenly change his agreed upon contract to give him more money/years at the time? vaguely recall something like that.
    They gave him slightly more money and stretched it out over there years instead of the two they had originally planned on in order to meet the sign-and-trade criteria. It basically amounted to that tiny bit that was guaranteed in his last year though.

    and yes, they could have gotten more for bertans than a trade exception
    I think this is hindsight. The guy didn't have that great of a market. Certainly there were people like DAF who loved him. He actually had good numbers that last year. But he was an old player for his level of NBA experience, and he was limited with bad knees. The Wizards took Bertans without sending money back. That's not free. At most, I'd say we were talking about a second-round pick -- likely the one the team ended up getting last summer anyway. If he somehow had the same contract year, with the team still wanting to trade him, maybe he could've gotten a first. But he could've also not played much and left for nothing anyway.

    I think it's cool to wish they had been psychic and found a way to pump-and-dump Bertans, but I'm not sweating it. Of all the moves I wish the team had made over the years, that's not very high on my list.

  9. #409
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    They gave him slightly more money and stretched it out over there years instead of the two they had originally planned on in order to meet the sign-and-trade criteria. It basically amounted to that tiny bit that was guaranteed in his last year though.



    I think this is hindsight. The guy didn't have that great of a market. Certainly there were people like DAF who loved him. He actually had good numbers that last year. But he was an old player for his level of NBA experience, and he was limited with bad knees. The Wizards took Bertans without sending money back. That's not free. At most, I'd say we were talking about a second-round pick -- likely the one the team ended up getting last summer anyway. If he somehow had the same contract year, with the team still wanting to trade him, maybe he could've gotten a first. But he could've also not played much and left for nothing anyway.

    I think it's cool to wish they had been psychic and found a way to pump-and-dump Bertans, but I'm not sweating it. Of all the moves I wish the team had made over the years, that's not very high on my list.
    who is to say that bertans would have gotten the playtime with the spurs that he did with the wizards to the point where the spurs would pay him anything close to what the wizards ended up giving him? that seems to be a big part of your equation, that the spurs basically lucked out by not getting trapped into a big bertans contract. the team would have been better off with him that year instead of carroll. not that they'd have been contenders anyway.

    obviously its hard to put full blame on the spurs for that whole scenario because if we had landed morris like we were supposed to nobody would have really batted an eye at the bertans deal. but it stings knowing we basically gave him up for nothing when he did have some perceived value around the league (or at least, was a year away from being perceived as having $80 mil value)

  10. #410
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    who is to say that bertans would have gotten the playtime with the spurs that he did with the wizards to the point where the spurs would pay him anything close to what the wizards ended up giving him? that seems to be a big part of your equation, that the spurs basically lucked out by not getting trapped into a big bertans contract. the team would have been better off with him that year instead of carroll. not that they'd have been contenders anyway.

    obviously its hard to put full blame on the spurs for that whole scenario because if we had landed morris like we were supposed to nobody would have really batted an eye at the bertans deal. but it stings knowing we basically gave him up for nothing when he did have some perceived value around the league (or at least, was a year away from being perceived as having $80 mil value)
    The part of the equation is that Bertans gave up after getting his next deal. Maybe if he had been paid less, he would've kept trying. But I don't know. I do feel like he was asking out. He said things at the time that indicated he was unhappy with how he was used. I don't actually think the Spurs were interested in paying him a second big-boy contract, and I think he would've jumped at a bigger deal. I'm not nearly as sure that a Carroll from the year before would've actually been a downgrade from Bertans assuming he didn't break out. The Spurs had shooting and scoring. They lacked defense and size on the perimeter. Bertans had his moments, but he also got bullied repeatedly by any forward with strength. His lateral quickness was also miserable. Obviously knowing how it shook out, Davis was better. But if you're trying to win with a Murray/DMDR/LMA core, you can't have positionless liabilities out there. As you said, that would be really obvious if Morris had joined up. Looking at the eventual playoff bracket that year, there was no way the Spurs would've had a chance of getting out of the second round without multiple defensive forwards. Assuming health and not falling off, being able to platoon Morris and Carroll and letting guys like Mills and Forbes shoot was certainly viable enough to be a discussion point.

  11. #411
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    for 2 years, he's basically been about what we had expected. you can take that in a good or bad way

    but he has provided a pretty nice jolt to the offense at times. its not just that he shoots at a high %, but the type of shots are pretty impressive. he's not just out there waiting to get an open look, he is always moving and just needs the slightest crease of daylight to get a shot off, which is obviously more valuable than a typical "sit in the corner, wait for your guy to double" specialist. while champagnie put on a nice shooting exhibit at the end of last year and in summer league, he wasnt creating the types of looks mcdermott did

    obviously, theres give and take given his defensive... limitations, to put it gently

    but he has not looked himself in the preseason, and not just because his shot isnt falling. the movement doesnt seem as sharp. a clumsy out of bounds penalty like the one he had yesterday is inexcusable. but he's not moving with the same purpose that we've been accustomed to

    i hope its just the case of a vet being rusty coming out of the offseason, because the bench is going to need to find ways to generate points, and he'd go a long way. plus, this version of mcdermott would not be a trade chip to anybody

  12. #412
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    I think they have bigger FO type plans for Doug. Can see him traded by Feb and back here or a FO with Spurs ties in a few years

  13. #413
    Veteran playbonner15's Avatar
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    I think they have bigger FO type plans for Doug. Can see him traded by Feb and back here or a FO with Spurs ties in a few years
    Yup can see him as an assistant coach in the future

  14. #414
    Believe. JuneJive's Avatar
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    Jesus. Took a quick glance and saw this thread up top.

    Phew. After a few seconds.

  15. #415
    Believe. Fizziksman's Avatar
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