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  1. #676
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    Ben "I won't shoot because you might foul me and I'm scared to death" Simmons doesn't have a lot of suitors for obvious reasons. Coming here will likely never happen, but it would be good for him. He might learn to shoot a basketball. Don't think improving is at the the top of his list. Can't Philly take his salary if he doesn't show up? Just sue him and his agent for a few hundred million.
    Then sixers never win a le. Their window is open with embid and they can't replace simmons with a minimum guy.

  2. #677
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    Given what happened to the Spurs with Kawhi Leonard, I can't believe that there are so many people here willing to trade for Ben Simmons when he's basically doing the same thing to the 76ers that Kawhi did to the Spurs. In my mind, the best case scenario that would happen would be:


    • Ben Simmons comes to the Spurs
    • His shooting improves steadily over the next 4 years due to Chip's coaching
    • The Spurs get better and better each year
    • By 2024-2025, the Spurs reach the WCF, Ben Simmons is 1st team all-nba, shooting 38% from 3P and 75% FT


    But you know what will happen next.. After his contract is up, Simmons will flee SA and head to one of his preferred teams, probably some team in California. And the Spurs will be left in the same position that they were in when Kawhi left, which is a middle of the pack, 8th seed type team. And don't tell me that Simmons will stay in SA when Kawhi didn't stay in Toronto even after winning a championship there.

    So given that Simmons would leave after 4 years, and may even force his way out after 3 years, it would only be worth it if the Spurs could win a championship in that time. But I don't think that [Simmons + Spurs young core - players and draft picks given up in the trade] is anywhere close to contending for a championship, given that [Embiid + Simmons + 76ers role players] couldn't get past Atlanta and Embiid is way better than anyone the Spurs could hope to draft/acquire in the next 3-4 years.

    Thought experiment: Imagine if Kawhi were originally drafted by the Pacers, and then he forced his way out in the same way, getting traded to Toronto then leaving for the Clippers. Now imagine that he is unhappy with the Clippers and wants out (pretend he's not injured), and has named 4 other teams as his preferred destinations: GS, LAL, Nets, Heat. Would you trade for him, knowing that he doesn't want to play in SA? If not, why would you trade for Simmons?

    The whole Kawhi fiasco has really turned me off to any player who tries to force their way off their team. It's one thing to request to be traded, which I can respect. But it's another to stop speaking to anyone on the team and tanking your own trade value, which both Kawhi and Simmons have done. I have no doubts that whichever team ends up with Simmons will regret it after 3-4 years when he decides it's time to get out of town and leave for greener pastures.
    but this is somewhat different from the kawhi situation right? in the sense that Ben Simmons didn't force his way out of philly, its that the philly organisation has openly expressed interesting in cutting ties with him... but i do agree that its similar only in the aspect that both kawhi and ben's preferred destination is to the bigger markets for non basketball reasons...

  3. #678
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    Given what happened to the Spurs with Kawhi Leonard, I can't believe that there are so many people here willing to trade for Ben Simmons when he's basically doing the same thing to the 76ers that Kawhi did to the Spurs. In my mind, the best case scenario that would happen would be:


    • Ben Simmons comes to the Spurs
    • His shooting improves steadily over the next 4 years due to Chip's coaching
    • The Spurs get better and better each year
    • By 2024-2025, the Spurs reach the WCF, Ben Simmons is 1st team all-nba, shooting 38% from 3P and 75% FT


    But you know what will happen next.. After his contract is up, Simmons will flee SA and head to one of his preferred teams, probably some team in California. And the Spurs will be left in the same position that they were in when Kawhi left, which is a middle of the pack, 8th seed type team. And don't tell me that Simmons will stay in SA when Kawhi didn't stay in Toronto even after winning a championship there.

    So given that Simmons would leave after 4 years, and may even force his way out after 3 years, it would only be worth it if the Spurs could win a championship in that time. But I don't think that [Simmons + Spurs young core - players and draft picks given up in the trade] is anywhere close to contending for a championship, given that [Embiid + Simmons + 76ers role players] couldn't get past Atlanta and Embiid is way better than anyone the Spurs could hope to draft/acquire in the next 3-4 years.

    Thought experiment: Imagine if Kawhi were originally drafted by the Pacers, and then he forced his way out in the same way, getting traded to Toronto then leaving for the Clippers. Now imagine that he is unhappy with the Clippers and wants out (pretend he's not injured), and has named 4 other teams as his preferred destinations: GS, LAL, Nets, Heat. Would you trade for him, knowing that he doesn't want to play in SA? If not, why would you trade for Simmons?

    The whole Kawhi fiasco has really turned me off to any player who tries to force their way off their team. It's one thing to request to be traded, which I can respect. But it's another to stop speaking to anyone on the team and tanking your own trade value, which both Kawhi and Simmons have done. I have no doubts that whichever team ends up with Simmons will regret it after 3-4 years when he decides it's time to get out of town and leave for greener pastures.
    Wait, Simmons becoming an MVP candidate, taking the Spurs to the WCF and then leaving in free agency it totally worth multiple unprotected picks. If the Spurs are good enough to reach the WCF on the back of a realized Simmons, they damned sure better have been trading their picks for complimentary stars to put around him. They have no right to think they can keep UFA past their contracts. It would be a foolish way to build a team and one of the major reasons why "building through the draft" wouldn't work.

    The Simmons/Leonard comparison is extremely lazy, and it shows more how jilted a fanbase can be than it does anything about the players. Guys want out, and teams are going to trade him. That's just reality. So the Spurs can put their heads in the ground and hope to draft nice-guy stars who will both be MVP candidates and want to stay on a team that refuses to make impact trades, or they can get with the times and take advantage of the fluid trade market to get stars who'd never sign with their as free agents. It's one thing to worry about trading a lot for an expiring player. But it's simply not justifiable to worry about whether the guy you have locked up for four years will want to be there in year seven or whatever.

  4. #679
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    Given what happened to the Spurs with Kawhi Leonard, I can't believe that there are so many people here willing to trade for Ben Simmons when he's basically doing the same thing to the 76ers that Kawhi did to the Spurs. In my mind, the best case scenario that would happen would be:


    • Ben Simmons comes to the Spurs
    • His shooting improves steadily over the next 4 years due to Chip's coaching
    • The Spurs get better and better each year
    • By 2024-2025, the Spurs reach the WCF, Ben Simmons is 1st team all-nba, shooting 38% from 3P and 75% FT


    Kawhi is a career 38% shooter from three, after shooting just over 37% in both of his first two seasons, and over 80% FT% in 9 out of his 10 seasons. Simmons has never shot over 30% from three or over 63% from the FT line. I wouldn't even classify this as best case scenario as much as a pie in the sky daydream scenario.

  5. #680
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    Then sixers never win a le. Their window is open with embid and they can't replace simmons with a minimum guy.
    Someone who shoots fts at 75-80% and 3's at > 35% might help them. Simmons has other skills, but until he works his ass off to become a better shooter he will bring them down. Just like this playoffs. that's their ceiling. Yeah they need more than "minimum guy." They need someone who will shoot the ball.

  6. #681
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    but this is somewhat different from the kawhi situation right? in the sense that Ben Simmons didn't force his way out of philly, its that the philly organisation has openly expressed interesting in cutting ties with him... but i do agree that its similar only in the aspect that both kawhi and ben's preferred destination is to the bigger markets for non basketball reasons...
    The 76ers may have wanted to get rid of him privately, but the earliest I heard about the situation publicly was when it was reported that Simmons wasn't returning any calls from the team, even from Embiid. Maybe he was "hurt" by some remarks that were made by Doc in the press, I don't know. Either way, this at ude of "it's not my job to fix my trade value" (actual quote attributed to Simmons) rubs me the wrong way.

    There are just certain guys in the league who I can't root for, for various reasons: excessive flopping/reliance on refs (Harden), dirty plays (Zaza), bailing on their team (Kawhi), reneging on a deal (Marcus Morris), etc. Right now, Simmons is in my "doghouse", and if he got traded to the Spurs I would find it very difficult to watch them (much like how I will feel a little disgusted any time Forbes is in the game).

  7. #682
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    Simmons trade likely occurs before October 1st. His contract is structured so that he gets half of his annual salary, 16.5 million, on 10/1. That’s a big enough number to light a fire under Morey’s ass.

  8. #683
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    Wait, Simmons becoming an MVP candidate, taking the Spurs to the WCF and then leaving in free agency it totally worth multiple unprotected picks. If the Spurs are good enough to reach the WCF on the back of a realized Simmons, they damned sure better have been trading their picks for complimentary stars to put around him. They have no right to think they can keep UFA past their contracts. It would be a foolish way to build a team and one of the major reasons why "building through the draft" wouldn't work.

    The Simmons/Leonard comparison is extremely lazy, and it shows more how jilted a fanbase can be than it does anything about the players. Guys want out, and teams are going to trade him. That's just reality. So the Spurs can put their heads in the ground and hope to draft nice-guy stars who will both be MVP candidates and want to stay on a team that refuses to make impact trades, or they can get with the times and take advantage of the fluid trade market to get stars who'd never sign with their as free agents. It's one thing to worry about trading a lot for an expiring player. But it's simply not justifiable to worry about whether the guy you have locked up for four years will want to be there in year seven or whatever.
    I think it's much more likely to draft a star and keep them long term, like Giannis, Gobert, Curry, Lillard, Jokic, etc. than to trade for someone who doesn't want to play for your team and expect to scrape together a championship team in 4 years. Even when drafted stars eventually leave their original team, they usually stayed at least 7 years, like Durant (9), Lebron (7), Davis (7), Kawhi (7), Aldridge (9). That's a lot more time to acquire pieces than to start with Simmons + no all stars and expect to somehow to win a chip by year 4.

    If it were someone more talented like Doncic I would feel differently, but in my opinion Simmons isn't good enough to lead a team to a championship. He's good enough to make the team win more games, which is the opposite direction of where the team should be headed. Even the most optimistic 38% 3pt shooting Simmons is basically like prime Paul George or Jimmy Butler level. Could we really surround someone like that with enough talent to win a championship? Seems like we'd need another star better than Simmons, which we'd be unlikely to get even by trading all our future picks.

    It takes a lot of luck to win a championship. Even if you tank for years (76ers), your window may be so small that one shot (Kawhi game 7 buzzer beater in 2019) could be the difference between getting that championship or not. Other teams seemed to be in great positions to contend (mid 2010s Celtics with so many 1st rd picks) but then somehow blew it. Other than last year, you had to have either Lebron, Curry, or Kawhi to win a championship in the last 9 years.

    I'm OK with the Spurs not winning a championship for a while, as long as they make smart decisions with trades and drafting. Unfortunately, since Kawhi left, they've made a lot of questionable decisions which doesn't give me much optimism for the future. Examples: Demarre Carroll, Pau Gasol contract, getting nothing for Aldridge, letting Forbes start, resigning Forbes. The jury is still out on Walker, Samanic, Vassell, and Primo but it's likely that the Spurs could have done better in the draft too. I also think that playing veterans like Belinelli and Gay over younger players like Walker and Samanic was a mistake and has hurt their development. If the Spurs would just commit to a rebuild it would be a lot better for the future than trying to make the playoffs as the 8th seed.

  9. #684
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    rather try trade for pacers big turner

  10. #685
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    Someone who shoots fts at 75-80% and 3's at > 35% might help them. Simmons has other skills, but until he works his ass off to become a better shooter he will bring them down. Just like this playoffs. that's their ceiling. Yeah they need more than "minimum guy." They need someone who will shoot the ball.
    Let's play a game. You choose that player that makes sixers better in a trade for Simmons.

  11. #686
    Veteran Maddog's Avatar
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    Given what happened to the Spurs with Kawhi Leonard, I can't believe that there are so many people here willing to trade for Ben Simmons when he's basically doing the same thing to the 76ers that Kawhi did to the Spurs. In my mind, the best case scenario that would happen would be:


    • Ben Simmons comes to the Spurs
    • His shooting improves steadily over the next 4 years due to Chip's coaching
    • The Spurs get better and better each year
    • By 2024-2025, the Spurs reach the WCF, Ben Simmons is 1st team all-nba, shooting 38% from 3P and 75% FT


    .
    I think this is a good way of thinking about this
    He's 25 what are the odds he's even going to get to 35% 3P and 70% FT. Not sure I can remember a player that made those kind of gains at this point in their career. In addition he's never demonstrated an inclination to work hard on his game and forget the shooting mechanics- he just will not shoot.
    Even if it where to happen, it's not going to happen overnight. He's already professed a desire to go to a Coastal California team
    Too risky to pursue IMHO

  12. #687
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    It's his celebrity California status that has me concerned and not his game. His stock is getting lower and lower. Sixers probably end up with Hield it's that low.

  13. #688
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    Someone who shoots fts at 75-80% and 3's at > 35% might help them. Simmons has other skills, but until he works his ass off to become a better shooter he will bring them down. Just like this playoffs. that's their ceiling. Yeah they need more than "minimum guy." They need someone who will shoot the ball.
    This

  14. #689
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    Again, the Cali thing was one reporter saying he was told that by someone in Simmons' circle, and it wasn't one of the big guys. I think it's more one of those things that "feels true" more than it's something we can say is evidenced. I think more than anything, Simmons will want to go to a team that openly supports him and maybe doesn't want to make him shoot rather than a team in a state he likes spending time in. He might be a "socialite", but he's also rich. He can go anywhere he wants in the world to party. It doesn't have to be in his back yard.

  15. #690
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    rather try trade for pacers big turner
    What would the Spurs be willing to give up for Turner? He’s the kind of player I would like for the next decade.

  16. #691
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    Again, the Cali thing was one reporter saying he was told that by someone in Simmons' circle, and it wasn't one of the big guys. I think it's more one of those things that "feels true" more than it's something we can say is evidenced. I think more than anything, Simmons will want to go to a team that openly supports him and maybe doesn't want to make him shoot rather than a team in a state he likes spending time in. He might be a "socialite", but he's also rich. He can go anywhere he wants in the world to party. It doesn't have to be in his back yard.
    Plus since then it's been reported that he is willing to play in 29 other cities besides Philly. I don't think he is really that desperate to move to Cali. He just wants out of that hole in Philadelphia

  17. #692
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    But I think you are vastly overestimating my value of Simmons. I never said gut the entire roster for him or trade 4 first rounders like Morey wants. I also don't think he is an MVP level player that would be some kind of franchise savior. Nor do I want the Spurs to acquire him just to "do something."
    Am I really overestimating your value of Simmons? Or is it you, vastly undervaluing what it'll actually take to get him? It's a bit cute that you think we wouldn't have to "gut the roster" to a degree, or trade multiple picks, just to get a shot at him. As others have said, beyond his (to me, horrific and terminal) defects, the guy is still highly valued in other areas around the league. As the Dude says, if all it took to get him was Aminu + Lonnie and a second or some , I wouldn't have a problem with getting him... But it's not the case.

    I think a lot of people here are severely underrating Simmons now because of a recent poor showing in the playoffs.
    No, Simmons has underperformed in multiple playoff series now, several years back. It's been quite a thing if you've followed the saga closely; only now, the meltdown was so evident and public that everyone's aware of it. But the frustration has been building up, and for good reason.

    His game does have limitations, and maybe he has been unwilling to work on that. But even still, he is an elite defensive player with elite playmaking skills that raises the floor of our roster. I don't think the Spurs should bend over backwards in a trade for him, but when you have a young all-star locked into a long term contract that fits the age of your core and wants out from his current team, you make an attempt to get him.
    Why the "maybe"? There's no benefit of the doubt here. The guy has literally not only refused, multiple times, to address his deficiencies (going as far as being called out to national media by his previous coach, Brett Brown, who literally said "if he's not taking at least one 3 per game, that's on me", then proceeding to not shoot a single 3 for him his entire tenure), but has actively regressed in the shooting department, taking less and less jumpers every year he's been in the league. As a Point Guard.

    And I don't see why you find solace in saying he wants out of his team, so we should pursue him. He's been the biggest diva throughout the process, thrown his team & city under the bus, doesn't mind tanking his value and sitting out after he gets his feelings hurt. Why do you think the same thing wouldn't happen in SanAn? It's not like Spurs fans will be too happy if he comes and still doesn't shoot for - especially after DeRozan, who was a better offensive player in all facets. He'll get boo'd eventually and, having no ties to SanAn, naturally force his way out again, or leave in FA.

    Lastly, I'll say that I don't disagree with your premise in a vacuum, and would like the Spurs swinging for big trades of disgruntled stars. Just not the one "star" that's got the biggest flaw in the league at the most important position for it, in shooting for a PG. He's exactly what you say - a floor raiser, mediocrity-settler, ceiling-lowering player. I'd much rather wait for the next Harden, and take a swing at that, TBQH. It's not like BS will be the last star to want out of his team, like people ITT want to make it seem for some reason...

    A lot of the negativity comes from the idea that Simmons is a headcase and a diva or whatever, and I don't necessarily disagree with that. But I also think guys understand how they are perceived in the league and I think they care about it.
    Of course you don't disagree, because it's exactly what has happened. I don't think even the pro-Simmons people ITT disagree that he's been a diva through it all, an en led one at that. And I totally agree players care about their image - but it's a negative for us, and not a positive like you think - why do you think a player obsessed with his image like BS, would want to come to middle-o-nowhere SanAn, notable for having their players fly under the radar and disappear from the national stage? Be real.... Simmons ain't about that. At all. You make a great point for why SA is a terrible team from Simmons' POV.

    Id also point out that we only really see one side of the argument because of the media. Remember when Kawhi wanted out and SA was getting torn to shreds by the media because kawhi controlled the narrative? Fans of other teams were ting on us too because of it. Can't rule out the Philly media doing the same

    Again, I'm not saying go all in and do whatever it takes to get Simmons. But if you can get him for some combo of Murray/Walker/Young/1st? You do that all day. IMO. I want our team to get better, and I think players would be more willing to come to a team with an all-star guy that they know will feed them the rock.
    Kawhi's situation was wholly uncomparable to this. There's no media "optics" here that made Simmons a passive, useless player in the 4th quarter of multiple playoff series. It's all him.

    Again, undervaluing Philly's asking price. If Murray + Walker + Young + 1st (aka, mediocre-to-good starting level PG, worthless young player, serviceable roleplaying big, and mid-to-late 1st) was enough to get it done, Benny boi would be in SanAn by now. It's not, and multiple teams, contenders and non-contenders (Cavs and Wolves for example) can easily beat out that offer by simple virtue of offering juicier 1sts or multiple ones, which Philly can reroute into better win-now assets (remember they're trying to compete!). Philly has no interest in Murray or Walker, simple as that. Again, your original misconception is not understanding Simmons' complex trade value given the Sixers' delicate situation.

  18. #693
    Veteran Sugus's Avatar
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    For context, my original post was playing some devil's advocate.

    I don't think the Spurs are bad at drafting and developing, but I think their ability to do so versus the rest of the league is leveling off. And I'm not for giving away years of first round picks, either. I think BS' value is getting lower and lower and as this progresses, I think there could be a value in pursuing him. And at that point, with Pop still as our HC, I have some confidence that if anyone could turn him around it would be Pop.

    Am I convinced this would succeed? No. But nor am I convinced our current path is working, either. Now this year will be different and we will likely lose more games and, sure, we can see what comes of that through the draft. And to clarify further, I am not a fan of flawed stars, but I have to accept that the Big 3 was a once in a lifetime scenario that likely won't repeat. And so, here we are, a bad team in a weak market.

    Another aspect: I sort of want DJM to be traded. I love his work ethic and dedication to SA, but I see his trajectory on a collision course with what the team will need, and so I'd like to move on in a year or two. Anyway, again, I'm not drastically disagreeing with you in my opinion. I like discussing the content, the personal squabbles I'm less interested in. So, happy to pursue this conversation.
    I can better agree with this perspective. Well, the part regarding the Spurs' uncertain future, at least; I certainly don't think a practically-out-the-door, out-of-touch, old-geezer Pop will do anything for Simmons' "development".

    The Big 3 was a once in a lifetime thing, sure, but it doesn't automatically mean the Spurs can't draft their next superstar either. When Kawhi was drafted/traded for, nobody thought he was gonna turn out like he did, and most thought the Spurs dynasty was finally ending. That didn't happen, did it? No reason the Spurs can't do it again - as long as they have their picks, at least. That's the main thing I quarrel with Simmons -the "mystery box" conundrum, but flipped-; trading for Simmons nets you a quasi-star that you know is massively, hopelessly flawed. Why not roll the dice on draft picks instead, who aren't bound by such fatal flaws (yet)?

    Funny enough, I also want to trade DJ away, I've been on that train for a while now. Sell high on him, get your ROI on an excellent 29th pick, and roll the dice again. I agree with you most there. And ironically, it's the same fatal flaw that makes me low on Dejounte, that makes me hard-pass on Simmons: you simply can't be a PG in the NBA in '21 without a respectable, repeatable, dangerous jumper. The league is all about PnRs, switching, matchup-hunting, defense-stretching, and volume outside shooting, and if your main ball-handler can't command respect from the defense to even go above a screen in the PnR - what's your ceiling really like? Pretty low, if you ask me.

    We saw this, picture-perfect clearly (you can go back and watch, I don't recommend it though, awful game for us), in the game last season in Boston, where the Celts came back and beat us with Tatum's 60. In the closing minutes of the 4th, Tatum was switched consistently on Murray, and he consistently dared Murray to shoot. I posted an image back then -I'll link it if I find it- of DJ, a feet above the 3pt line, and Tatum literally standing in the paint, arms open, waiting for him. Can you imagine how that play ended? DJ drive straight into the defense, turnover, Boston score. And it wasn't a one-off.

    You just can't survive without a respectable jumper anymore if you wanna play PG. IF you told me Simmons (going back to the first point!) was open to playing Point Forward, I'd welcome him with open arms; his deficiencies much easier to hide or build around at PF. But at strictly PG? Recipe for disaster, as Philly has seen (and the Spurs soon will, unless DJ takes the leap some posters hope he does).

  19. #694
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    Again, the Cali thing was one reporter saying he was told that by someone in Simmons' circle, and it wasn't one of the big guys. I think it's more one of those things that "feels true" more than it's something we can say is evidenced. I think more than anything, Simmons will want to go to a team that openly supports him and maybe doesn't want to make him shoot rather than a team in a state he likes spending time in. He might be a "socialite", but he's also rich. He can go anywhere he wants in the world to party. It doesn't have to be in his back yard.
    People thinking that being in a specific city still matters for NBA players when they can literally jump on a private jet whenever they want and spend the offseason wherever they want. Heck, he’d be able to afford a lot of private jet hours with the income tax savings in TX and many other states besides CA.

    On the margin, some teams will give more exposure / endorsement opportunities to players. But they’ll follow the best players and the most compelling ones. Simmons’ priority shouldn’t be on a specific city, but on the place that will best rehab his image and game.

  20. #695
    Veteran Dverde's Avatar
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    Morey likes making trades…I think all this attention and chatter makes him hard.

  21. #696
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    The thing with Simmons is he seems to not have a work ethic or desire to improve in offseason
    Ofcourse he has the max or close so who can blame him.
    That is the problem with giving the max to people who do not deserve it

  22. #697
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    Morey likes making trades…I think all this attention and chatter makes him hard.
    Oh you mom makes him hard

  23. #698
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    What would the Spurs be willing to give up for Turner? He’s the kind of player I would like for the next decade.
    He’s a player from the last decade.

  24. #699
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    The thing with Simmons is he seems to not have a work ethic or desire to improve in offseason
    Ofcourse he has the max or close so who can blame him.
    That is the problem with giving the max to people who do not deserve it
    You don't go second in DPOY and have little work ethic.

  25. #700
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    Post Count
    3,324
    I don’t buy the lazy thing. He can be fixed, he is getting knocked for not being aggressive and passing up shots. I’d rather have a project like that, than a DeRozan type going 3-19 in playoff games sinking his team.

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