Stein: Chatter Circulating About The Spurs' Attempts To "Barge" Their Way Into Simmons Sweepstakes

[John B]

People see them as similar, but they’re really not. DJ is a better shooter, but Simmons is elite at the rim, and he gets there easily in spite of a janky jumper. They both rebound at a high level, and dish out a high number of assists. When you have two players who are close, you look for tie breakers. Size is the most obvious one, and that gives the edge to Ben. He’s also a more natural distributor. DJ has gotten better at the pick and roll, but still misses too many perimeter shooters. I’d still make the trade, although it’s not quite as cut and dried as it was in training camp. It’s all academic, though. According to sauces, neither White nor DJ were offered. This is just a thought exercise.

Morey would be a fool not to take Murray if he’s offered right now. This version of DJ with the dog at ude is much more than what Sixers had with Simmons in the playoffs. It’s only a few games, but I’m leaning on keeping our guys as it is (not my at ude during the pre-season). Heck if Lonnie could play like that every night, this team would be very fun to watch

[slick'81]

Fck ben simmons

[Atl Spur]

A starting line up of: White, Devin, Ben (point forward), Zach, Jakob . Very difficult to deal with!

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

A starting line up of: White, Devin, Ben (point forward), Zach, Jakob . Very difficult to deal with!

Maybe in 1995, but in 2021 playing with 3 non shooters is suicide.

[Degoat]

I was on the trade for Ben Simmons but no way I’m trading DJ for him tbh

[cjw]

After getting over the initial shock of the trade, Philly fans would be doing backflips after getting a guy who seems to be the polar opposite in terms of being a teammate and not a headcase. Murray would be a Philly favorite.

For me, the question is no longer what I’d have to give up in addition to Murray to get Simmons. It’s whether I would do a deal straight up (obviously with salaries included to make numbers work). I don’t know that I would. You have to consider broader implications to cap of Simmons. Maybe he shapes up, maybe he returns to All NBA. He could also destroy the franchise.

I also don’t think Morey would move Simmons for just Murray. So that probably puts an end to things anyway.

[KingKev]

I'm not going to lie. I came in here to basically point out that while Murray is playing well, Simmons is still better. But looking at the stats, I don't know that that's true. Don't get me wrong -- defensively and impact-wise, Simmons last year is still ahead of Murray this year. There are certainly still ways to say Ben is a tier or so above Murray. But even adjusting for minutes, DJM is outperforming BS in terms of production while also having a more diverse game. The shooting is a real issue for Murray -- but there's hope that he'll find his way toward overall efficiency soon. Simmons' TS% was superior, and that is a product of him being a much better driver and strong finisher. But without learning to shoot threes or improving his FT%, there's not really any upside that he'll get better. I still lean toward the idea that if you could take last years' Simmons and trade that guy for Murray, Ben would look better, and the Spurs would win more games. But it would rely on all of the other players being great three-point shooters -- especially with Jakob also playing. That hasn't really been the case this year, so it's dicey.

And that's just on-the-court stuff. If Simmons is really going through mental stuff, then he might well be damaged goods. If he isn't, then it's hard to trade for him trusting that he wouldn't do this the next time he wanted out of a situation. I don't have to speak on the cultural impact that Murray's basically had since Day 1. It would be a huge hit to the Spurs losing him for a guy who's listless, whether due to medical issues or just at ude.

I don't think it makes sense to trade Murray for Simmons at this time, and given the team's shooting issues and DJM's high usage, I don't think Simmons makes sense for the Spurs with Murray still on the roster. That can change if Ben gets back to playing and shows he can be the All-NBA player he was before.

When comparing the two we should probably normalize all of these stats for the fact Murray makes half of what BS makes. Murray is close to untouchable in my eyes unless its part of a bigger deal for a true rising star like a Tatum, Tre Young, Zion.

[KingKev]

Simmons stock is probably at an all-time low. I truly believe Thad/White/Walker and our 2022 FRP is very fair. I understand ppl’s reservations about Murray and Simmons playing together but I suspect if you surrounded them with scorers they could figure it out.

A starting 5 that included Murray/Vassell/Simmons would be a very exciting defensive trio. Probably couldn’t start Jak but fill that starting 5 out with a pure scorer, preferably a versatile 4 and a rim running 5 and it would work well IMO.

[Dejounte]

When comparing the two we should probably normalize all of these stats for the fact Murray makes half of what BS makes. Murray is close to untouchable in my eyes unless its part of a bigger deal for a true rising star like a Tatum, Tre Young, Zion.

Zion “Michael Sweetney” Williamson?

[KingKev]

Zion “Michael Sweetney” Williamson?

I wouldn't count him out yet.

[Cabrito]

What an amazing story Chuck told about Moses making him cry for saying “he was fat and lazy.” And that being the turning point in his career.

[SPURt]

I wouldn’t trade DJM for Ben. You can’t compare their stats straight up without accounting for personnel. DJM is the Spurs number 1 option and defensive game plans must account for him first. Simmons is operating in a system with an MVP candidate. Ben Simmons doesn’t do near as good as DJM if they were traded straight up for one another. Simmons is a hard pass. Mentally damaged and unable to learn how to at least Jason Kidd a three, smh.

[talkspurs]

People see them as similar, but they’re really not. DJ is a better shooter, but Simmons is elite at the rim, and he gets there easily in spite of a janky jumper. They both rebound at a high level, and dish out a high number of assists. When you have two players who are close, you look for tie breakers. Size is the most obvious one, and that gives the edge to Ben. He’s also a more natural distributor. DJ has gotten better at the pick and roll, but still misses too many perimeter shooters. I’d still make the trade, although it’s not quite as cut and dried as it was in training camp. It’s all academic, though. According to sauces, neither White nor DJ were offered. This is just a thought exercise.

Actually I see them as completely different players. Ben is much more of an old school PF. He is not a PG. Philly tried and decided it failed. They also have different games. Murray is more outside and Ben is totally inside (as you even point out). Ben cannot guard small players while DJm does. Ben also has problems with true bigs. I dont think DJM and Ben are even close. Djm is far better then Ben.

[talkspurs]

Not that these guys would ever change their mind to begin with (it’s just tooooooo hard to admit when we’re wrong), but gloating about something you could be right about makes the other party even more steadfast in their opinion and it helps absolutely nothing. You should have expected nothing before you made this post but now more excuses will flood in after your post.

For the reason that happened. Chinock kind of said he would make the trade but then kind of backtracked. Extatic said he would not. neither of them would come out and say they were wrong. So it was showing that they were unwilling to accecpt when they were wrong. DJm is in the top 30 of current players. Ben even if healthy is probably not even top 50. It also goes to show how much people will overate just based off of name and media hype. These two try an act like they are objective but they really just go off what the media hypes. I was also big on Cristina wood before he got big. Some others were onboard but others were not. I also wish we would have gone after Mo Wagner this year. He is doing well in the limited time he is getting. We needed a PF and that is what he is. When trying to find good players you cant go off media hype but off what they will do.

[talkspurs]

I'm not going to lie. I came in here to basically point out that while Murray is playing well, Simmons is still better. But looking at the stats, I don't know that that's true. Don't get me wrong -- defensively and impact-wise, Simmons last year is still ahead of Murray this year. There are certainly still ways to say Ben is a tier or so above Murray. But even adjusting for minutes, DJM is outperforming BS in terms of production while also having a more diverse game. The shooting is a real issue for Murray -- but there's hope that he'll find his way toward overall efficiency soon. Simmons' TS% was superior, and that is a product of him being a much better driver and strong finisher. But without learning to shoot threes or improving his FT%, there's not really any upside that he'll get better. I still lean toward the idea that if you could take last years' Simmons and trade that guy for Murray, Ben would look better, and the Spurs would win more games. But it would rely on all of the other players being great three-point shooters -- especially with Jakob also playing. That hasn't really been the case this year, so it's dicey.

And that's just on-the-court stuff. If Simmons is really going through mental stuff, then he might well be damaged goods. If he isn't, then it's hard to trade for him trusting that he wouldn't do this the next time he wanted out of a situation. I don't have to speak on the cultural impact that Murray's basically had since Day 1. It would be a huge hit to the Spurs losing him for a guy who's listless, whether due to medical issues or just at ude.

I don't think it makes sense to trade Murray for Simmons at this time, and given the team's shooting issues and DJM's high usage, I don't think Simmons makes sense for the Spurs with Murray still on the roster. That can change if Ben gets back to playing and shows he can be the All-NBA player he was before.

I see you are really big into ts%. He actually is not a strong finisher. but he gets lots of ft as he plays inside. If DJM got more his ts% would go up quite a bit. DJM also helps open up the floor by being an outside player. He also is a better defender. Ben lives off his name. As soon as he goes to a worse team his profile will fall.

[exstatic]

For the reason that happened. Chinock kind of said he would make the trade but then kind of backtracked. Extatic said he would not. neither of them would come out and say they were wrong. So it was showing that they were unwilling to accecpt when they were wrong. DJm is in the top 30 of current players. Ben even if healthy is probably not even top 50. It also goes to show how much people will overate just based off of name and media hype. These two try an act like they are objective but they really just go off what the media hypes. I was also big on Cristina wood before he got big. Some others were onboard but others were not. I also wish we would have gone after Mo Wagner this year. He is doing well in the limited time he is getting. We needed a PF and that is what he is. When trying to find good players you cant go off media hype but off what they will do.

I’m not a media guy, but I am ABSOLUTELY an advanced stats guy, and those give Simmons the edge.

Y’all are like that group of Oakland As front office personnel befuddled at the new Asst GM that Billy Bean brought into the room in Moneyball. You’re the Romans, and the Visigoths are making their way over the horizon to sack your city. As Billy said, adapt or die. There is value in flawed players that other teams don’t want. I think there is huge value in Ben Simmons, even if he’s a baby.

[exstatic]

I see you are really big into ts%. He actually is not a strong finisher. but he gets lots of ft as he plays inside. If DJM got more his ts% would go up quite a bit. DJM also helps open up the floor by being an outside player. He also is a better defender. Ben lives off his name. As soon as he goes to a worse team his profile will fall.

When you take about 54% of your shots from 0-3 feet, and finish at 71%, that’s high quan y, elite finishing. The FTs are just icing. TS% is not a mirage. Most of this board recognize what an overrated chucker that Russell Westbrook is, and TS% hates him. It isn’t a mirage, but it is a good indicator of productivity.

[talkspurs]

I’m not a media guy, but I am ABSOLUTELY an advanced stats guy, and those give Simmons the edge.

Y’all are like that group of Oakland As front office personnel befuddled at the new Asst GM that Billy Bean brought into the room in Moneyball. You’re the Romans, and the Visigoths are making their way over the horizon to sack your city. As Billy said, adapt or die. There is value in flawed players that other teams don’t want. I think there is huge value in Ben Simmons, even if he’s a baby.

I dont disagree with you that there is value in flawed players. But you have to be able to fix the flaw or there is no value. Can you post the advanced stats that your looking at for ben djm and forbes for last season and this season. ts% puts forbes higher. I also will use him to show how much playing on a winning team helps. You have to understand how the stats work in order to interpret them.

[objective]

Big reason why back in September I was not on board with a dejounte for Simmons swap is that dejounte is willing to take big shots in crunch time. Simmons isn't, he'll pass out of a dunk.

Simmons might be a better passer, could be a better defender, rebounder, fast break player etc etc. But when it comes to winning time, Simmons doesn't want it. Dejounte does.

he's even taking more threes then ever. 7 attempts each of the last two games, and 7 games of 5 attempts or more. The percentage is not good for now, but he's not afraid of looking like he can't shoot. Simmons would curl into the fetal position before going 3-7 on threes in 2 straight games

[Chinook]

When comparing the two we should probably normalize all of these stats for the fact Murray makes half of what BS makes. Murray is close to untouchable in my eyes unless its part of a bigger deal for a true rising star like a Tatum, Tre Young, Zion.

In a league like the NBA where talent differences are marginal, direct value isn't really applicable. If Player X is 20-percent better than Player Y but makes twice as much, then you can't just assume having two of Player Y would be a lot better. A slight improvement can mean the difference between a deep playoff run and missing the play-in. With the addition of min players, rookie contracts and other cap exceptions, a lot of players are locked into lower value tiers as well. There are guys who are pretty cheap who can give you a lot of what Player Y is going to give, and having those guys and the marginal increase from Player X is usually how teams go for it, and they're more successful than those who try to moneyball the league.

More directly, if Simmons is better than Murray, Murray making less doesn't matter all that much, because teams need max-level performers more than they need to save money. There are certainly avenues in which players can be bargains, but compared to the NFL, there are a lot fewer of them. If we assume Simmons is 20 percent better than Murray just for argument's sake, I'd rather have him than two Murrays.

I see you are really big into ts%. He actually is not a strong finisher. but he gets lots of ft as he plays inside. If DJM got more his ts% would go up quite a bit. DJM also helps open up the floor by being an outside player. He also is a better defender. Ben lives off his name. As soon as he goes to a worse team his profile will fall.

Simmons isn't a great free-throw shooter, and TS% would actually hurt him since he shoots below the expect PPP the formula on sites like BBRef assume. The formula uses an estimate of efficiency to calculate how large free throws' contribution to the denominator should be. The stat is assuming more of his points come from made FTs than is actually true. If it were properly calculated, BS would have an even higher number.

No, I'm not actually that into the stat. No idea why you'd assume that just because I cited it.

For the reason that happened. Chinock kind of said he would make the trade but then kind of backtracked. Extatic said he would not. neither of them would come out and say they were wrong. So it was showing that they were unwilling to accecpt when they were wrong. DJm is in the top 30 of current players. Ben even if healthy is probably not even top 50. It also goes to show how much people will overate just based off of name and media hype. These two try an act like they are objective but they really just go off what the media hypes. I was also big on Cristina wood before he got big. Some others were onboard but others were not. I also wish we would have gone after Mo Wagner this year. He is doing well in the limited time he is getting. We needed a PF and that is what he is. When trying to find good players you cant go off media hype but off what they will do.

So you gloated in order to get responses? I mean okay. I definitely think the start to the season has altered how I think about the comparison between the players. Some of that is Murray being better than he's been. But a lot of that is also Simmons' stock dropping. As I said before, in a vacuum, I'd still take last year's Simmons over Murray this year. I'm not going to box myself into a corner where I'm ting on Murray, as I'm glad he's playing better. But I also think a lot of Spurs fans haven't really looked at how Murray compares to the rest of the league. He's been good, but he still has a lot of flaws in his game that drag his impact down compared to All-NBA guys like Simmons. There are a lot of teams with multiple players who have cases for being clearly better than DeJounte, including some not very good teams. I think DJM should be over guys like CJ McCollum, but someone like Sabonis (who's not a superstar by any means), is still comfortably better.

Again, not trying to on Murray, but if he weren't the culture leader of the team (and didn't go through a horrible summer), I'd have no problem trading him away even now.

[XDT76]

In a league like the NBA where talent differences are marginal, direct value isn't really applicable. If Player X is 20-percent better than Player Y but makes twice as much, then you can't just assume having two of Player Y would be a lot better. A slight improvement can mean the difference between a deep playoff run and missing the play-in. With the addition of min players, rookie contracts and other cap exceptions, a lot of players are locked into lower value tiers as well. There are guys who are pretty cheap who can give you a lot of what Player Y is going to give, and having those guys and the marginal increase from Player X is usually how teams go for it, and they're more successful than those who try to moneyball the league.

More directly, if Simmons is better than Murray, Murray making less doesn't matter all that much, because teams need max-level performers more than they need to save money. There are certainly avenues in which players can be bargains, but compared to the NFL, there are a lot fewer of them. If we assume Simmons is 20 percent better than Murray just for argument's sake, I'd rather have him than two Murrays.



Simmons isn't a great free-throw shooter, and TS% would actually hurt him since he shoots below the expect PPP the formula on sites like BBRef assume. The formula uses an estimate of efficiency to calculate how large free throws' contribution to the denominator should be. The stat is assuming more of his points come from made FTs than is actually true. If it were properly calculated, BS would have an even higher number.

No, I'm not actually that into the stat. No idea why you'd assume that just because I cited it.



So you gloated in order to get responses? I mean okay. I definitely think the start to the season has altered how I think about the comparison between the players. Some of that is Murray being better than he's been. But a lot of that is also Simmons' stock dropping. As I said before, in a vacuum, I'd still take last year's Simmons over Murray this year. I'm not going to box myself into a corner where I'm ting on Murray, as I'm glad he's playing better. But I also think a lot of Spurs fans haven't really looked at how Murray compares to the rest of the league. He's been good, but he still has a lot of flaws in his game that drag his impact down compared to All-NBA guys like Simmons. There are a lot of teams with multiple players who have cases for being clearly better than DeJounte, including some not very good teams. I think DJM should be over guys like CJ McCollum, but someone like Sabonis (who's not a superstar by any means), is still comfortably better.

Again, not trying to on Murray, but if he weren't the culture leader of the team (and didn't go through a horrible summer), I'd have no problem trading him away even now.

I disagree with your 20% talk it is only true if you have unlimited money and resources. Our 2014 Spurs has no players that is 20% better than the Heats and Thunders. James and Wade are probably better than anyone on our team in that year but with a more balance team we won the championship. History has a lot of examples the 2019 Raptors, the 2011 Mavericks the 2006 Heats and the 2004 Pistons. Having 2 Murray can ensure you have 48 minutes of Murray in the whole series, you can never play a BS for 48 minutes for a 7 game series. Players will also have a bad day. Having 2 Murray will have better resilience than 1 BS.

[Chinook]

I disagree with your 20% talk it is only true if you have unlimited money and resources. Our 2014 Spurs has no players that is 20% better than the Heats and Thunders. James and Wade are probably better than anyone on our team in that year but with a more balance team we won the championship. History has a lot of examples the 2019 Raptors, the 2011 Mavericks the 2006 Heats and the 2004 Pistons. Having 2 Murray can ensure you have 48 minutes of Murray in the whole series, you can never play a BS for 48 minutes for a 7 game series. Players will also have a bad day. Having 2 Murray will have better resilience than 1 BS.

The 2014 Spurs were uber-talented. I dare say everyone on the team now would struggled to make that rotation. Don't let the narrative fool you there. Wade was also a s of himself, and Westbrook was the same chaotic-neutral player seven years ago that he is now. The Spurs had four HoFers who were all playing a high level. I know it's fun to pretend like the team scrapped and took down a goliath, but the Spurs were clearly better than the broken-down Heat in 2014. There's no sum-of-part talk. It was like, James, Duncan, Leonard, Parker, Ginobli, Wade, Green, Diaw, Bosh, Splitter, Mills and then some Heat guys and guys like Beli to finish it up. Having one prime James (or Duncan or even Manu and Tony) was worth way more than two players who are making half of what he did. , he was worth two other max players that weren't him and a small handful of true superstars.

You can't 80/20 NBA superstars. There's a risk that the star will get hurt, but you just take it. You might be somewhat better without in the moneyballl scenario, but you're still not good enough to beat the teams with elite talent. I don't think the Spurs in 2014 beat OKC without Duncan any more than the Heat would without James. In league with seven-game series, have an off night shouldn't be the real reason a team loses. Of course, you don't just have the two value players and the expensive players. You have other guys on the roster too, and even min-contract ring-chasers add value that the "balanced" team doesn't have as much access to. Those guys aren't usually as good as players on solid contracts, but they're often close enough to be better values than the mid-tier contracts anyway.

[XDT76]

The 2014 Spurs were uber-talented. I dare say everyone on the team now would struggled to make that rotation. Don't let the narrative fool you there. Wade was also a s of himself, and Westbrook was the same chaotic-neutral player seven years ago that he is now. The Spurs had four HoFers who were all playing a high level. I know it's fun to pretend like the team scrapped and took down a goliath, but the Spurs were clearly better than the broken-down Heat in 2014. There's no sum-of-part talk. It was like, James, Duncan, Leonard, Parker, Ginobli, Wade, Green, Diaw, Bosh, Splitter, Mills and then some Heat guys and guys like Beli to finish it up. Having one prime James (or Duncan or even Manu and Tony) was worth way more than two players who are making half of what he did. , he was worth two other max players that weren't him and a small handful of true superstars.

You can't 80/20 NBA superstars. There's a risk that the star will get hurt, but you just take it. You might be somewhat better without in the moneyballl scenario, but you're still not good enough to beat the teams with elite talent. I don't think the Spurs in 2014 beat OKC without Duncan any more than the Heat would without James. In league with seven-game series, have an off night shouldn't be the real reason a team loses. Of course, you don't just have the two value players and the expensive players. You have other guys on the roster too, and even min-contract ring-chasers add value that the "balanced" team doesn't have as much access to. Those guys aren't usually as good as players on solid contracts, but they're often close enough to be better values than the mid-tier contracts anyway.

I did not say our 2014 Spurs took down a Goliath I am using your 20% better example. James is definitely better than all our players Wade despite a s of himself is still better than most of our players and I did not bring in Bosh yet. I am arguing that having more players with good talents are better than a couple of great talents. When you have too many Max players especially those that are not worth it, it's gonna kill your team.

[mo7888]

Not Simmons relayed but I thought this was the best place to drop this-Shams

Sources: The Indiana Pacers are moving toward rebuild, receptive to trade talks centered on Caris LeVert and either Domantas Sabonis or Myles Turner.

[John B]

Not Simmons relayed but I thought this was the best place to drop this-Shams

Sources: The Indiana Pacers are moving toward rebuild, receptive to trade talks centered on Caris LeVert and either Domantas Sabonis or Myles Turner.

I wouldn’t mind getting Sabonis.