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  1. #51
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I believe the cap doesn't have to do with age or tenure, but rather how many years the player has participated in the summer league.
    I don't think there's a cap at all. Certainly Samanic didn't reach it. The Spurs have had d-leaguers who've gone for a many years. Even Anderson played in three SLs.

  2. #52
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    I believe the cap doesn't have to do with age or tenure, but rather how many years the player has participated in the summer league.
    Nah, that's not a thing either. Hate to bring it up, but Anderson was on it 3 times, and most players in the league go there twice, while the guys that are trying to make a team, may show up multiple seasons.

    However, participation the first two seasons in the league (rookies and sop res) is the team's prerogative, whereas after the third season it's voluntary on the player and the team can't compel a player to participate.

    Samanic only participated his rookie season, since the summer before his second year in the league (when he would have been featured) the COVID pandemic caused the NBA to cancel summer league unfortunately. Participation prior to his third season was voluntary.

  3. #53
    foaming at the nostrils raybies's Avatar
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    Nah, that's not a thing either. Hate to bring it up, but Anderson was on it 3 times, and most players in the league go there twice, while the guys that are trying to make a team, may show up multiple seasons.

    However, participation the first two seasons in the league (rookies and sop res) is the team's prerogative, whereas after the third season it's voluntary on the player and the team can't compel a player to participate.

    Samanic only participated his rookie season, since the summer before his second year in the league (when he would have been featured) the COVID pandemic caused the NBA to cancel summer league unfortunately. Participation prior to his third season was voluntary.
    With how many success stories, and how much it has helped aid in development, and how helpful it's been to the eyes of the teams decision makers, I can't help but think it greatly lowered his value to them... I just don't know how he skips that. Like to know more tbh...
    Last edited by raybies; 10-07-2021 at 08:11 AM.

  4. #54
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    I think the rule is 2 NBA seasons. After that, the player must agree.

  5. #55
    foaming at the nostrils raybies's Avatar
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    I think the rule is 2 NBA seasons. After that, the player must agree.
    considering where he has been in the rotation, I find it hard to believe that he doesn't just know that this was the play... I fear he is very misguided in some way, form, or fashion. But the team should've known this though. He had at ude problems in Europe as well.

    For me his body movement shows a very disgruntled player, and watching how he plays, it's like him saying, "I'm so much better then where I'm at."

    I go back and forth with the whole "Stubborn Pop" dynamic. He's the GOAT coach and he's literally seen it all, so my inclination is to trust him to be what the situation calls for. We will never know what he sees. Pop is very mysterious and enigmatic with his thought process. And although very methodical, it typically ends up the way we think. So in that regard his patience is pretty legendary.
    Last edited by raybies; 10-07-2021 at 08:19 AM.

  6. #56
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    Two good things going for Samanic are that even though it happened at the end of games, he played in both and looked competent. Meanwhile KBD only played in the first game and Thad and Aminu in the second.

    There is probably a sense to the puzzle but it is tough to read and I have changed my mind multiple times. However, Luka has played well enough to at least warrant an extended look. I am also not in love with Vassell playing as a 4. He lacks the physicality for it, even though he is a good player deserving of minutes.

    Also, aside from Luka not getting rotation minutes so far, I think the team has more young players than it can realistically develop all at the same time. Even if they don't want to be deliberate about a hierarchy, they will still establish it with their minutes distribution.

    And this brings me to a point about lottery talents. Now that the team is drafting in the lottery, the old ways to develop players don't work as efficiently. Pop used to send youngins to the Gleague for a year or two, while the team played veterans, and called the rooks up for injuries or rest games. Well now the team isn't as talented as all that. Even the best of the group aren't stars and don't have that ceiling (maybe Murray, but it would be context based, and my thoughts about it would derail this post). Meanwhile Primo may be the most offensively talented guy the team has drafted in the past 6-7 years.

    Some have said Primo will cause some guys to get traded. The truth is that if he really is talented enough, then it's time to take a hard look at the entire guard rotation and find him minutes somewhere.

    On a separate note, all the opportunities Lonnie is getting are because he's in a contract year, and while decisions on other guys can be postponed, Lonnie's extension deadline is soon. Even if they don't reach an agreement and leave the decision on his contract for next summer, keeping him past this season only makes sense if he can play a well defined and recurring role for them.

  7. #57
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    With how many success stories, and how much it has helped aid in development, and how helpful it's been to the eyes of the teams decision makers, I can't help but think it greatly lowered his value to them... I just don't know how he skips that. Like to know more tbh...
    I am starting to think that if there is a fallout with Luka it has to be personality based.

    He's talented enough to have played more last season, at a time the team was absolutely starved for bigs, and that puzzled me to no end. Then he didn't participate in summer league. Then the team then went out and signed a ton of bigs: McD to a starting role, Jock and Collins for a center role (perhaps they are looking at alternatives to move on from Jakob eventually), and specifically requested Thad and Aminu from Chicago. Now I don't think they had better offers for Derozan, but they also have been considering Derozan trades for a couple of seasons before this summer and some of the rumors involved Aaron Gordon from the Magic. That trade was predicated on Derozan agreeing to a contract extension which the Magic and he backed out, but the Spurs were clearly asking for big forwards in these trades. So I think them ending with 2 bigs in the Derozan trade is not a coincidence.

    I have had the feeling that Luka is not in good footing for a long while as everyone who has read my posts know, but I can't deny that it's puzzling. I still can't understand it, but obviously we don't have the full picture specially with his at ude.

  8. #58
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    There's no cap at all or any mandate to participate. What you guys are thinking of are d-league send-downs, and I think it's three years now rather than two. You have to be invited to play in the SL, and due to the nature of the league, teams are discouraged from inviting guys who have a guaranteed spot and role. The Spurs likely did ask Sam if he wanted an invite and he declined. Both sides save face that way.

  9. #59
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    There's no cap at all or any mandate to participate. What you guys are thinking of are d-league send-downs, and I think it's three years now rather than two. You have to be invited to play in the SL, and due to the nature of the league, teams are discouraged from inviting guys who have a guaranteed spot and role. The Spurs likely did ask Sam if he wanted an invite and he declined. Both sides save face that way.
    Thanks for clarifying that. I have found some conflicting information about it but nothing that is authoritative and it doesn't matter. He was under contract and felt safe enough.

    We can't say that he had a guaranteed spot and role the way the season ended for him, but he must have felt safe because he was under contract. The Spurs signing KBD is them giving him both the motivation and urgency to compete harder.

  10. #60
    Spurs fan in Las Vegas Drom John's Avatar
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    CBA Summer League:

    Section 4. Summer Leagues.
    (a) No NBA Team may simultaneously enroll more than four (4)
    Veterans in any summer basketball league during an off-season. For
    Article XXIII 367
    purposes of this Section 4(a), the following players are not considered
    Veterans:
    (1) a player who has never signed a Player Contract or
    whose first Player Contract begins with the Season
    immediately following the off-season in which such
    summer league is to be conducted;
    (2) a player not under contract to an NBA Team at the
    time he enrolls in such summer league;
    (3) a player under contract to an NBA Team but who
    missed twenty-five (25) or more of the Team’s
    games during the Regular Season immediately
    preceding such off-season due to injury or illness;
    and
    (4) a player who played for a team in the NBA
    Development League or any other U.S.-based
    professional league during all, or any portion, of the
    Regular Season immediately preceding such off-
    sea
    Exhibit E E-1
    EXHIBIT E
    NOTICE TO VETERAN PLAYERS CONCERNING
    SUMMER LEAGUES
    1. Under the Uniform Player Contract and the Collective Bargaining
    Agreement between the NBA and the Players Association, the
    Team cannot require players to participate in any summer league.
    2. The failure of a player to participate in a summer league will not,
    by itself, prejudice or disadvantage such player in his Team
    standing or relationship.
    3. The Team reserves the right to determine how many and which
    players it may enroll in any summer league.
    We would appreciate your signing in the space provided below to
    acknowledge that you have freely chosen to participate in summer league
    play on a voluntary basis during the summer of ____.
    Agreed to and Accepted:
    (Name of Player)

  11. #61
    foaming at the nostrils raybies's Avatar
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    Two good things going for Samanic are that even though it happened at the end of games, he played in both and looked competent. Meanwhile KBD only played in the first game and Thad and Aminu in the second.

    There is probably a sense to the puzzle but it is tough to read and I have changed my mind multiple times. However, Luka has played well enough to at least warrant an extended look. I am also not in love with Vassell playing as a 4. He lacks the physicality for it, even though he is a good player deserving of minutes.

    Also, aside from Luka not getting rotation minutes so far, I think the team has more young players than it can realistically develop all at the same time. Even if they don't want to be deliberate about a hierarchy, they will still establish it with their minutes distribution.

    And this brings me to a point about lottery talents. Now that the team is drafting in the lottery, the old ways to develop players don't work as efficiently. Pop used to send youngins to the Gleague for a year or two, while the team played veterans, and called the rooks up for injuries or rest games. Well now the team isn't as talented as all that. Even the best of the group aren't stars and don't have that ceiling (maybe Murray, but it would be context based, and my thoughts about it would derail this post). Meanwhile Primo may be the most offensively talented guy the team has drafted in the past 6-7 years.

    Some have said Primo will cause some guys to get traded. The truth is that if he really is talented enough, then it's time to take a hard look at the entire guard rotation and find him minutes somewhere.

    On a separate note, all the opportunities Lonnie is getting are because he's in a contract year, and while decisions on other guys can be postponed, Lonnie's extension deadline is soon. Even if they don't reach an agreement and leave the decision on his contract for next summer, keeping him past this season only makes sense if he can play a well defined and recurring role for them.
    I really enjoy your posts... actual Spurstalk tbh...

    But sentiment aside... to your first point I agree 100. He shows just enough to make you think twice about pulling the plug. He is extremely talented and skilled for his size. And later in your post you alluded to what I believe is the core issue and it's his at ude. I don't know if or how that will ever change.. I mean if Phil Jackson was coaching the team it wouldn't be an issue, but holistically I really haven't had an issue about how we pick our guys... As a small market team we found a niche and a brand that has worked so of course you try to continue the consistency.

    As far as Vas at the four and on to your fourth paragraph, I agree once again. I think our youth isn't properly valued. In my eyes we have one of the best young cores in the league. Obviously if you have a Ja Morant player then everybody gets their due, but because no one has separated themselves from the pack it just looks like bodies. Our youth is very talented and I think this year may open a lot of eyes. It's no wonder they feel disrespected. 28 wins for a roster like this and a coach like Pop is an easy bet to far over exceed. But like you said, and as I have positioned, we may need to cash some pieces in so to speak. Which is why early on seeing what everyone can do and what you are trying to do as a team should let you know who stays and who goes. If you look at the roster we have quite a few lottery guys now and typically and in times past, teams with a lot of lottery talent tend to do good. It's not a rule of thumb but more so a good indicator. Our lotto guys aren't scrubs either, ya know.

    But with DW with a mid tier contract and DJ, how can you just keep handing out these contracts. Lonnie hasn't shown anything really. DW and DJ at least showed enough to warrant these contracts, with DJ's 2nd Team All D accolade and DW's performance against Denver when he went unconscious and may have been the best player on the floor, at least for long stretches. Really wish that guy could find his way back...
    Last edited by raybies; 10-07-2021 at 01:42 PM.

  12. #62
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    That makes two of us. Man, it's annoying to constantly have to wonder what if...?, the same way it was constantly annoying to wonder whether Dejounte and White could play together. Pop is just too CIA for his own damn good sometimes.

    If he sucks, he sucks; why don't you play him 20-30m a couple nights and let him show you out on the court? Spurs staff can't possibly think that just his effort on practice (we talkin' 'bout practice...) and garbage time is enough of a gauge for his worth, right? These are meaningless, entirely worthless games - why is he still being relegated to garbage time squad duty? It's not even about his skill level/ability at this point; if KBD is the better player, so be it, but cut your ing losses or at least admit that you have them in the first place. Then you can use the space left productively.

    I used to be high on Samanic, to a certain extent I still am. But just like Lonnie, I've become progressively soured on them due to a clear, unavoidable aspect of mismanagement in regards to their development. The constant What If's. It's bull . Let him put up or shut up... But just let him, for s sake.
    It makes no sense. What are you losing by playing these guys in meaningless preseason games?

    Spurs barely practice as it is, these young guys need meaningful game minutes. I thought with Derozan, Aldridge, Gay, and Mills finally gone that pop would be forced to do the right thing. Instead, here we are watching Aminu and Young getting minutes instead. It’s maddening.

  13. #63
    Veteran JeffDuncan's Avatar
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    It makes no sense. What are you losing by playing these guys in meaningless preseason games?
    ...

    The preseason games this year are not meaningless. The Spurs have too many players under contract. Two of them have to be gone by the 18th. That's precious little time to make the final roster decisions.

    For two guys in particular, whoever they are, these preseason games could be the most important games of their professional careers.

  14. #64
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    It makes no sense. What are you losing by playing these guys in meaningless preseason games?

    Spurs barely practice as it is, these young guys need meaningful game minutes. I thought with Derozan, Aldridge, Gay, and Mills finally gone that pop would be forced to do the right thing. Instead, here we are watching Aminu and Young getting minutes instead. It’s maddening.
    It was so ing predictable that he wouldn't play meaningful minutes the next game, either I'm not expecting it at any point this Preseason, and maybe even into the season whatsoever.

    Kind of have already peace with the fact that some players on the Spurs simply won't get a fair chance, and might have already been "ruined" or soured by previous developmental malpractices by the coaching team (cough Pop cough). Luka's in that boat for sure. It's nice to see Lonnie get additional exposure in these games, but you gotta wonder whether it's too late already for him...

  15. #65
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    Yes, it is wrong. It's not something you can "disagree about", because the stat is what it is. Does that mean it's useful? No. But it's not something that scales with wins and can't be explained away by saying that guys who are disappointing in that stat are only such because of being on a bad team. Simply looking at the WS/48 of the other players on the same team dispels that. And I know you know that, since you took a bunch of time to try to vet the stat over a random sequence of posts. You're just on a lame shtick right now.

    I'm usually pretty clear over when something is my opinion rather than a fact, and people who aren't you don't really seem to have a problem differentiating. Just like how you thought my speculation about Simmons was the same thing as me pretending I had a source and was reporting a trade or whatever. You're not stupid. You're ornery to the point that it's stale, but you're not stupid. You have the basic reasoning skills to know when a statement is fact or assertion. You're choosing to pretend to have reading comprehension issues because you don't like that I have a different opinion than you. It's dumb, but it's intentional on your part. You're not stupid, but you're trying to use stupid tactics because you're tired of trying to debate legitimately and don't know how to just ignore posts.
    Once again, the stat does scale with wins and just because you say it doesn’t, doesn’t make it factual. It’s almost like you think what you write comes is true just because you say it is. I never claimed that the stat is useless, and it’s extremely disingenuous to assume that you’re using the stat correctly by mentioning other players have lower WS/48. Like no ing , win shares are affected by a number of factors including if the subs ute player plays less than the starter. It’s heavily weighted by playing time and to simply look at WS/48 of other players on the team without taking into context their role, minutes is clueless as .

    Stop pretending to be a psychologist when you can’t actually do any introspection on yourself and read your own ing posts and how you come off as. Anything you disagree with, you call it “weird”. And when you’re wrong, you forget how wrong you are in months’ time, such as the time you whined like a ing baby and did all types of conspiracy work on the Spurs losing money because the Spurs traded for Marquese. Double down. Triple down. Quadruple down all you like.

  16. #66
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    It makes no sense. What are you losing by playing these guys in meaningless preseason games?

    Spurs barely practice as it is, these young guys need meaningful game minutes. I thought with Derozan, Aldridge, Gay, and Mills finally gone that pop would be forced to do the right thing. Instead, here we are watching Aminu and Young getting minutes instead. It’s maddening.
    I’m okay with them giving Aminu minutes. He is a likely candidate to be waived but if there is a chance he can reclaim himself as a 3 and D guy he could be a valuable trade chip so he needs some run in real games to assess.

  17. #67
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Once again, the stat does scale with wins and just because you say it doesn’t, doesn’t make it factual. It’s almost like you think what you write comes is true just because you say it is. I never claimed that the stat is useless, and it’s extremely disingenuous to assume that you’re using the stat correctly by mentioning other players have lower WS/48. Like no ing , win shares are affected by a number of factors including if the subs ute player plays less than the starter. It’s heavily weighted by playing time and to simply look at WS/48 of other players on the team without taking into context their role, minutes is clueless as .

    Stop pretending to be a psychologist when you can’t actually do any introspection on yourself and read your own ing posts and how you come off as. Anything you disagree with, you call it “weird”. And when you’re wrong, you forget how wrong you are in months’ time, such as the time you whined like a ing baby and did all types of conspiracy work on the Spurs losing money because the Spurs traded for Marquese. Double down. Triple down. Quadruple down all you like.
    Dude, it doesn't scale with wins. Look at the formula. I know you know how to do that because you did it with USG%. What is true is that a team with a lot of win-shares will win a lot of games, but that's because a team with guys performing well wins, not because they are taking the wins and dividing them up. If you read the formula page, you'll see there was a version of the stat that did actually scale with wins, exactly, but it's not the one that BBRef uses. Win-shares "approximate" wins in the same vein that BPM "approximates RAPM". It's a goal for the stat to be somewhat close, but the stat doesn't contain any data about how many games the team won and thus it can't be said that better teams make a player have a better WS/48. It's actually the opposite, where the better a team is, the harder it is for a player to make a big enough contribution to have a high win-share total relative to his teammates. The numerator is based on performance relative to the league, not the team, and the denominator is based most on scaling for era (using the stats for league average score and league pace), with an adjustment for team pace. But that's it. That's the only time that a team's performance actually affects the stat. So no, your opinion that the stat scales with wins is objectively false.

    So saying, "You're missing context" without showing that context changes the results is a meaningless, pseudointellectual argument. In the examples you gave, those players, even on bad teams, did not have high relative WS/48 compared to their teammates. They weren't good players on bad teams. They were bad players on bad teams -- their performances contributed to their teams being bad. Of course, Murray had two years on a playoff team, so the "good player on bad team" line obviously didn't work with him. The Spurs weren't a bad team to explain his low results. What also doesn't help is that believing WS/48 are proportional to wins should suggest that you can reliably translate them from one team to another, so Simmons "objective" by this logic contributed twice as much to wins as Murray did. Does that mean Murray won't see one of those relatively uncommon explosions? No. But it doesn't erase the idea that Simmons has been a better player than Murray.

    It doesn't take a psychologist to see you've tried so hard to be positive that you've become the arguably most negative person on this forum. It's not just the ty gate-keeping with how posters should support the Spurs. You want so badly to believe in the young guys that you're actively hating on someone like Young because you want to justify him being off the team to give the young guys minutes. You're obsessively looking to paint any acknowledgment of how well DeRozan played last year as a desire to keep him because you want to believe the young guys are an improvement over him. You should just calm down, man. I watch every Spurs game despite not agreeing with Pop on things he does. I criticize those things on here because that is a major part of fan engagement. I don't like something that they do, and I want to see them do it better, and I watch the games and discussing random scenarios in that lens. I'm pretty flexible as a fan that way. But with how much just the past couple of years of decline have affected your posting demeanor, I can't imagine how much of a toll a real rebuild with take on you.

  18. #68
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    just because you say it doesn’t, doesn’t make it factual. It’s almost like you think what you write comes is true just because you say it is.

    Stop pretending to be a psychologist when you can’t actually do any introspection on yourself and read your own ing posts and how you come off as. Anything you disagree with, you call it “weird”. And when you’re wrong, you forget how wrong you are in months’ time, such as the time you whined like a ing baby and did all types of conspiracy work on the Spurs losing money because the Spurs traded for Marquese.

  19. #69
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    Spurs are definitely rounding into what appears to be a 25 win team at best here during the preseason. Biggest problem with this team will be getting points. Problem two is not much length to stop other teams from just cramming the ball into the basket. Also, without a single name player, and so much youth, getting calls could be tough.

  20. #70
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    Spurs are definitely rounding into what appears to be a 25 win team at best here during the preseason. Biggest problem with this team will be getting points. Problem two is not much length to stop other teams from just cramming the ball into the basket. Also, without a single name player, and so much youth, getting calls could be tough.
    Yeah at least they are content with being lottery bound. It is needed. I hope they showcase Thad eary and drum up a market for him, otherwise I suspect we don’t make a single trade.

  21. #71
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    I agree with your opinion on the Samanic situation and I am thankful you were candid about it.

    He's definitely on thin ice, enough for the team to offer a contract to KBD. Luka may play a lot more minutes in the next few preseason games but it should be interpreted as an opportunity for him to convince the Spurs that he's worth continuing to invest in, as you say not just for this season but for $4.5 million for the next one. The Spurs may be ready to cut their loses with him and not extend him and if he's not extended why continue to spend resources developing him?

    If he doesn't play much more than he did in the first game, I would think that the Spurs have seen enough of him already to make up their minds. I think KBD is not some token signing. Beyond the fact KBD received guaranteed money for a training camp invite, here's the problem for Luka: he's not cracking this rotation unless there are injuries and I think as the Spurs get younger and younger, and draft lottery talents, he will be faced with more and better compe ion from other prospects that are also trying to break in the league. His compe ion for minutes is now coming in from Vassell, a better defender than him (and probably a better prospect as well) and Josh Primo, a lottery pick who may soon prove to be too good for the Gleague. Therefore Luka is reduced to injury insurance and a practice body. It's a good problem to have, that the Spurs have better prospects.

    The Spurs are a business and if they can't envision Luka as a rotation player going forward, they can get similar production from a KBD type for less and that difference would be $ significant next season. And when you think of next season, one has to think that there are already prospects on their radar. Samanic is going to continue to get pushed. He'd have to show that he has more upside than just roster depth.

    I think it's to be expected that as the Spurs get younger and continue to add more prospects, not all are going to make it. They will keep the best and afford enough opportunity to everyone, but some are probably not going to find their footing in the league until they are older, have toiled in other teams, or quite simply they wash out.

    I am no longer critical about the pick because it's part of the process that not everyone will pan out and the Spurs still do better drafting than most.

    The final aspect with Luka is something that we don't know. The coaching staff sees him all the time, behind the closed doors of the gym. If he's not a guy that's going to be happy just being a deep bench player waving towels and they could see that he's not going to crack the rotation he may not be a fit for the team moving forward. There are things like him not wanting to participate in summer league when he could have benefited from it and built up confidence and chemistry that concerned me as well.

    I think I have changed my mind and now believe that he's unlikely to make it.
    Best post of the preseason, tbh. Well done, SAGirl.

    Yeah, I'm somewhat frustrated Samanic was never really given a chance to show what he could do. But, then again, if he was showing next to nothing in practice and not advancing at all behind the scenes, there was no longer a reason to keep him.

    What further hurt him is that players like Keldon and Vassell are now able to play PF in today's league. Samanic is skilled compared to most traditional bigs but he's not that skilled compared to wings who can now moonlight as bigs.

  22. #72
    Still Sporting Ben Davis Allan Rowe vs Wade's Avatar
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    I don't see how Luka survives honestly.


    They will not cut Luka.

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