1. #32351
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Post Count
    21,215
    But, regardless, the bang for the buck is not even a matter of opinion. It's actually a fact that our aid is infinitesimal compared to our extended incursions in Iraq and Afghanistan. And when it comes to the cost of American lives, it's not even close.
    "Bang for the buck" is of course an opinion because it requires subjective takes on what value we're getting for our money spent. I see diminishing returns. You apparently don't.

  2. #32352
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
    My Team
    Los Angeles Lakers
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Post Count
    81,264
    "Bang for the buck" is of course an opinion because it requires subjective takes on what value we're getting for our money spent. I see diminishing returns. You apparently don't.
    ...because neither side of 50+ countries involved in this war will tell the/a truth since about 30 days after this started up. & never will again.

  3. #32353
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,592
    What? More strawman arguments from you...

    I never said or suggested we shouldn't have fought in the Korean War if that's what you mean by "you would have the Kims control the entire peninsula 70 years ago".

    I've also never said I would have "Russia occupy all of Ukraine". Russia isn't capable of occupying all of Ukraine. How many millions of soldiers would that take? But regardless, I would support Europe leading an effort to provide Ukraine what is necessary to defend the territory Ukraine controls now if they agree to a ceasefire now. That would mean some US support, but it would be MUCH LESS than would be necessary in an open hot conflict like we have now. A ceasefire would mean they could use the resources they have in reserve and what is provided by aid to fortify what they control and discourage another attack.
    You said you did not want a forever war. Year 2 of the Korean conflict you would have had us abandon Seoul for fear of a forever war.

    We were spending more of our GDP. We actually had Americans dying in the conflict. There was no apparent end in sight for the conflict which bears out now 70 years later.

    Without NATO support, the Russian armored columns would have ran all over UKR forces, their close air support would run unimpeded with Hind and Su-29 flying sorties with no recourse, and they would starve because of an effective naval blockade.

    Sure there might be partisan warfare but you are a fool if you do not think the Russians and their million man army could not garrsion the major population centers in Ukraine and ins ute their pogroms and resettlements programs.

    You are nave as if you think Russia would agree to a ceasefire without NATO support.

  4. #32354
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Post Count
    25,077
    Gee, the more I think about it, the more sympathy I have

  5. #32355
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Post Count
    21,215
    False. Putler's "negotiations" including any ceasefire is not worth the paper it's printed on. Ukraine knows, they've negotiated with Putler before.
    A ceasefire today makes sense because it's not really based on trust or good faith (Putin has none) but instead its durability would be more a product of the present cir stances. What I mean by this is that Russia has what it wanted most which is Crimea and the land bridge and cost/benefit ratio of pushing much deeper into Ukraine is terrible for Russia. So why would they try to go deeper at this point?

  6. #32356
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Post Count
    25,077
    Sucker

  7. #32357
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Post Count
    21,215
    You said you did not want a forever war. Year 2 of the Korean conflict you would have had us abandon Seoul for fear of a forever war.
    I made a specific reference to Zelensky's apparent plan for a forever war in Ukraine. You've simply made up all this about my take on the Korean War.

    And I already made clear I mostly supported the aid we already gave, and that my concern is about the huge cost and diminishing returns on what is being proposed for future aid.

    if you think Russia is "taking Kiev" with the current state of its army, then you're nave as .

  8. #32358
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    152,535
    "Bang for the buck" is of course an opinion because it requires subjective takes on what value we're getting for our money spent. I see diminishing returns. You apparently don't.
    Unless you value American lives at zero, there's not much to discuss here. Plus on the economics side, if there's one thing the crippling sanctions are doing is making America a ton of money from things like exported NG.

    Since you also brought Taiwan before, this is exactly where geopolitics go. China is also looking at how damaging is can be to tempt fate against America and it's allies.

    A ceasefire today makes sense because it's not really based on trust or good faith (Putin has none) but instead its durability would be more a product of the present cir stances. What I mean by this is that Russia has what it wanted most which is Crimea and the land bridge and cost/benefit ratio of pushing much deeper into Ukraine is terrible for Russia. So why would they try to go deeper at this point?
    There's no such thing as a ceasefire without mutual trust that it's going to be abided to by the parts. Funny you mention what would Russia do, considering they've been doing political destabilization prior to 2014 and went ahead with full blown invasion shortly after. Just take a look al Modova next door.

    IMHO, this conflict isn't going anywhere until the floor falls from under Putler, much like it happened to Russia in the '90s. Which would be a great thing for Russians in general and the world at large.

  9. #32359
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    152,535
    I made a specific reference to Zelensky's apparent plan for a forever war in Ukraine. You've simply made up all this about my take on the Korean War.

    And I already made clear I mostly supported the aid we already gave, and that my concern is about the huge cost and diminishing returns on what is being proposed for future aid.

    if you think Russia is "taking Kiev" with the current state of its army, then you're nave as .
    It's obviously not "forever", more like "as long as it takes". And he's right.

  10. #32360
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,592
    I made a specific reference to Zelensky's apparent plan for a forever war in Ukraine. You've simply made up all this about my take on the Korean War.

    And I already made clear I mostly supported the aid we already gave, and that my concern is about the huge cost and diminishing returns on what is being proposed for future aid.

    if you think Russia is "taking Kiev" with the current state of its army, then you're nave as .
    You're not this stupid. I am using your justification for Ukraine and applying it to the Korean conflict in the same time frame.

    The situation at the year 2 point is a good analog to your entire take here.

    You can wishcast a ceasefire. You have no logical consistency as demonstrated even if you cannot see.

  11. #32361
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
    My Team
    Los Angeles Lakers
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Post Count
    81,264
    You're not this stupid. I am using your justification for Ukraine and applying it to the Korean conflict in the same time frame.

    The situation at the year 2 point is a good analog to your entire take here.

    You can wishcast a ceasefire. You have no logical consistency as demonstrated even if you cannot see.
    But we're still in Korea 70+ years after that war ended, we then compounded that loss with another loss when JFK got us into Vietnam and our clock got absolutely cleaned.

    We ed, pissed & moaned after Russia helped the North defeat us in Vietnam and even threatened nuclear war over it. "We'll never do something like that."

    Now we're doing exactly what we threatened nuclear over to Russia. lol. + this absolute stunner..."For Putin to use cluster bombs is beyond the pale and akin to nuclear war. I will never do that, I swear on the same Bible I swore on about shutting down COVID."

    6 months later...The U.S. is using cluster bombs against Russia. tee, hee.

    Ah, the tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

  12. #32362
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
    My Team
    Los Angeles Lakers
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Post Count
    81,264
    It's obviously not "forever", more like "as long as it takes". And he's right.
    Six of 1, half dozen of the other, El.

  13. #32363
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
    My Team
    Los Angeles Lakers
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Post Count
    81,264
    Unless you value American lives at zero, there's not much to discuss here. Plus on the economics side, if there's one thing the crippling sanctions are doing is making America a ton of money from things like exported NG.

    Since you also brought Taiwan before, this is exactly where geopolitics go. China is also looking at how damaging is can be to tempt fate against America and it's allies.



    There's no such thing as a ceasefire without mutual trust that it's going to be abided to by the parts. Funny you mention what would Russia do, considering they've been doing political destabilization prior to 2014 and went ahead with full blown invasion shortly after. Just take a look al Modova next door.

    IMHO, this conflict isn't going anywhere until the floor falls from under Putler, much like it happened to Russia in the '90s. Which would be a great thing for Russians in general and the world at large.
    Sure, China is looking at Russia seizing and retaining 20% of Ukraine.

    Who the do you think you're fooling, El? What, because you Ignore me you think I ain't reading your , son?

    Uh, uh. Nope. I read everybody's . I ignore no one. Ever. It's my religion.

  14. #32364
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    144,476
    U had no idea who said it. I had to educate your ignorant ass

    Chumpanzee
    I know what you said.

    How do you live with being that wrong that often?

  15. #32365
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    144,476
    He never paid a major price for his actions before. This time he did.

    Anyway... sanctions, reparations and other punishments can remain on the table.
    Why should they?

    Anything he gets from this will be a reward and will encourage him to do it again.

  16. #32366
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    144,476
    Chumpdumper is not the one going to the trenches, but they are and they don't really want to...

    BBC News: Ukraine is struggling to meet its demand for soldiers.



    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065
    So it's like almost every war we ever fought.

  17. #32367
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
    My Team
    Los Angeles Lakers
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Post Count
    81,264
    Why should they?

    Anything he gets from this will be a reward and will encourage him to do it again.
    He's already done it, Dumper. He has possession of 20% of Ukraine, including their Zap Nuclear Plant and the southern water. There is nobody who is going to blow Russia's horn, but they got that 20%. If Canada held 20% of America it'd be WW3. In Nazi occupied Ukraine? It ain't .

    Dumper, it just shows ta go ya.

  18. #32368
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
    My Team
    Los Angeles Lakers
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Post Count
    81,264
    So it's like almost every war we ever fought.
    Especially when Cassius Clay refused to go. tee, hee. So, they went after Elvis. Uh, uh. Nope. He'd already been drafted, didn't dodge, just served, and after 2 years back to America and a 90% tax rate. muhahahahahahahaha!!!

  19. #32369
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,592
    Chumpdumper is not the one going to the trenches, but they are and they don't really want to...

    BBC News: Ukraine is struggling to meet its demand for soldiers.



    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065
    So the chosen and widely popular leader of Ukraine is working against corruption and refugees are fleeing the combat zone to the west. These are reasons for continued support.

    There is a reality to the demographics of Ukraine and you are grasping at straws.

  20. #32370
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    144,476
    THE BEGGING




  21. #32371
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
    My Team
    Los Angeles Lakers
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Post Count
    81,264
    So the chosen and widely popular leader of Ukraine is working against corruption and refugees are fleeing the combat zone to the west. These are reasons for continued support.

    There is a reality to the demographics of Ukraine and you are grasping at straws.
    And Ukrainian men of age are sneaking into Poland. Like Effy says, they ed around volunteerin' and almost found out.

    Like American kids fleeing into Canada during Vietnam.

  22. #32372
    notthewordsofonewhokneels Thread's Avatar
    My Team
    Los Angeles Lakers
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Post Count
    81,264
    THE BEGGING



    Well, you can certainly believe the U.S. State Department, they'd never lie.

  23. #32373
    Grab 'em by the pussy Splits's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Post Count
    25,431



  24. #32374
    Grab 'em by the pussy Splits's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Post Count
    25,431



  25. #32375
    Grab 'em by the pussy Splits's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Post Count
    25,431



Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 11 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 11 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •