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  1. #226
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    With Keldon's improved shooting from distance I think you could play him at the 3. In this trade White is likely going out so Murray/Vassell/Johnson/Collins/Poeltl would be a pretty sensible starting lineup, imo
    Keldon's shooting isn't why he struggles to play the three. It's that his lack of agility on the perimeter defensively is worst than his lack of size in the paint. I definitely wouldn't be looking for reasons to keep him as a starter. I'd be looking for ways to maximize his effectiveness. In my opinion, that's by him going up against guys who don't have a physical advantage over him. In the event of a Collins trade, the team's top priority should be acquiring a strong scoring SG to put between Murray and Vassell. If they somehow tricked ATL into taking McDermott in the trade, the team could make a max slot available. This isn't a great free-agent window, but both Beal and Lavine could fit. Neither is uber likely to leave, but I'd be more surprised if Lavine left his situation. Theoretically Harden and Irving are also options. But no 10/10 times with Harden, and while Irving is on paper the best fit, he's a head case who also has injury issues even if he toned down some of his antics.

    Murray, Jones
    Beal, Primo
    Vassell, KBD
    Collins, Johnson
    Poeltl, Landale

    This is ignoring the top-10 pick in 2022 the Spurs would have and the two salary slots the team would have in the $5M to $6M salary range. They'd have enough to fill out a strong rotation, but I would still be surprised if they had the top-level talent to win a le. They'd fight for a top-three record in the West, though, if they can get the right ring-chasers or hit on their draft pick. They'd be in the ball park of Phoenix, Utah and Denver.

  2. #227
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    It's just due diligence from other teams to see if they can pilfer solid, cost controlled young veterans from an organization thought to be in the early stages of a re-build and more than likely perceived to be an easy mark.

    I can't see them getting an offer for any that they deem more valuable than the presence of those players though and my sense is Osman was either pre Hernangomez or would be for him because they're similar enough to be superfluous.

    If the Spurs wanted Collins so badly, they had an opportunity to at least put the Hawks feet to the fire last off season. Somehow I don't see them giving up something like White and a loosely protected '23 1st, especially when they could be months away from finally getting their much needed four.


    With Keldon's improved shooting from distance I think you could play him at the 3. In this trade White is likely going out so Murray/Vassell/Johnson/Collins/Poeltl would be a pretty sensible starting lineup, imo
    That lineup has a severe lack of shot creation, ball handling and play making.

  3. #228
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    I'd have to favor trading KJ instead of White in a potential Collins deals. Collins would be essentially replacing KJ as the starting 4. As TD mentions above, a KJ + Collins pairing seems to be an odd fit and something tells me KJ's game would suffer in a reserve role, whereas White could excel in that role. However, I am certainly not opposed to moving White in a potential Collins deal since it fills an area of great need, but think PATFO values White a lot more than people think or want to beleive. Versatility and play making is key here, but youth and the timetable of the team certainly favor keeping KJ in this potential trade.

    Moreover, Walker wasn't extended in the off season and no team wants to trade for him for a reason. He's a scorer who doesn't score consistently. If his shooting sucks, he's a negative. Murray, White and Poetl can positively impact the game even when they aren't scoring. Hence, why Walker's WAR value is 0.1 and the other three are closer to 5. It seems to be an advanced stat that translates well to what your eyes tell you. McDermott measures as the worst Spur's rotational player at -1.1, which I agree with because he's one-dimensional on offense, can't create for others, and a complete turn style on defense. He's on the wrong side of 30 and would be happy to seem him gone.

    It would be great to see the Spurs take a big swing in a trade though. Shake things up.

  4. #229
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    I'd have to favor trading KJ instead of White in a potential Collins deals. Collins would be essentially replacing KJ as the starting 4. As TD mentions above, a KJ + Collins pairing seems to be an odd fit and something tells me KJ's game would suffer in a reserve role, whereas White could excel in that role. However, I am certainly not opposed to moving White in a potential Collins deal since it fills an area of great need, but think PATFO values White a lot more than people think or want to beleive. Versatility and play making is key here, but youth and the timetable of the team certainly favor keeping KJ in this potential trade.

    Moreover, Walker wasn't extended in the off season and no team wants to trade for him for a reason. He's a scorer who doesn't score consistently. If his shooting sucks, he's a negative. Murray, White and Poetl can positively impact the game even when they aren't scoring. Hence, why Walker's WAR value is 0.1 and the other three are closer to 5. It seems to be an advanced stat that translates well to what your eyes tell you. McDermott measures as the worst Spur's rotational player at -1.1, which I agree with because he's one-dimensional on offense, can't create for others, and a complete turn style on defense. He's on the wrong side of 30 and would be happy to seem him gone.

    It would be great to see the Spurs take a big swing in a trade though. Shake things up.
    The rumoured interest is D White however.

  5. #230
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I'd have to favor trading KJ instead of White in a potential Collins deals. Collins would be essentially replacing KJ as the starting 4. As TD mentions above, a KJ + Collins pairing seems to be an odd fit and something tells me KJ's game would suffer in a reserve role, whereas White could excel in that role. However, I am certainly not opposed to moving White in a potential Collins deal since it fills an area of great need, but think PATFO values White a lot more than people think or want to beleive. Versatility and play making is key here, but youth and the timetable of the team certainly favor keeping KJ in this potential trade.

    Moreover, Walker wasn't extended in the off season and no team wants to trade for him for a reason. He's a scorer who doesn't score consistently. If his shooting sucks, he's a negative. Murray, White and Poetl can positively impact the game even when they aren't scoring. Hence, why Walker's WAR value is 0.1 and the other three are closer to 5. It seems to be an advanced stat that translates well to what your eyes tell you. McDermott measures as the worst Spur's rotational player at -1.1, which I agree with because he's one-dimensional on offense, can't create for others, and a complete turn style on defense. He's on the wrong side of 30 and would be happy to seem him gone.

    It would be great to see the Spurs take a big swing in a trade though. Shake things up.
    Atlanta doesn't want KJ, they want White. White makes a lot of sense for them. KJ does not.

  6. #231
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    ehhhÖ.

    we will see how irrelevant their win streak and possible chance of making the playoffs is.

    If they do trade him to us I will not be mad unless they give up a ton of draft picks or DJ, Vassell, Primo, or Keldon.

    we will see soon if Collins and Youngís relationship canít be minded by winning games, I guess.
    Just making the playoffs would be a fail They were in the EC finals last year, and they donít look to be headed in that direction. Anything less is a step backwards. Theyíve been shopping him for a year. They still are. I donít think their present situation has anything to do with keeping him. I donít see them doing it. I think heís talented and young enough, and is locked into a reasonable deal that someone will bite and make them a good offer.

    Bottom line: after making it to the ECFs,Trae and JoCo are still having issues. This isnít fixable.

    Interesting thought: maybe DJ was being shopped to ATL last summer in a potential S&T for Collins and they didnít think he was a good enough return at the time. They may think differently now. There were strong indications that he WAS shopped.

  7. #232
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Oh wow, Murray for Collins would be a huge mistake.

  8. #233
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Oh wow, Murray for Collins would be a huge mistake.
    Why would they want White? I know everyone here wants to get rid of him, but the reasons you want to do that would be the same reasons ATL might not want him. As far as I’m concerned, the only untouchable is Primo.

  9. #234
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    I'm not in favor of Murray for JoCo's but, I'll say this, if we do that we should be the one expecting more assets in the deal...

  10. #235
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    Why would they want White? I know everyone here wants to get rid of him, but the reasons you want to do that would be the same reasons ATL might not want him. As far as I’m concerned, the only untouchable is Primo.
    Vasell is also untouchable for me.

    But to answer your first question. Every team would want Murray over White. But it will cost teams a lot more. The reason why the leak that Hawks are interested in White, is because he solves some of their issues right now.

    White is a defensive point guard. He's shooting might be in a slump right now, and Atlanta may think it would improve with a better team around him. He can play on the ball so Tre can play off, like Curry. Furthermore, he can guard the best guard on the opposing team so Tre does not. He can play in the clutch because he will make the correct offensive and defensive decisions. He is on a reasonable lengthy contract and the Hawks want to cut some costs.

  11. #236
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Vasell is also untouchable for me.

    But to answer your first question. Every team would want Murray over White. But it will cost teams a lot more. The reason why the leak that Hawks are interested in White, is because he solves some of their issues right now.

    White is a defensive point guard. He's shooting might be in a slump right now, and Atlanta may think it would improve with a better team around him. He can play on the ball so Tre can play off, like Curry. Furthermore, he can guard the best guard on the opposing team so Tre does not. He can play in the clutch because he will make the correct offensive and defensive decisions. He is on a reasonable lengthy contract and the Hawks want to cut some costs.
    Everything you just said about White applies to Murray.

  12. #237
    Dyna5ty BatManu20's Avatar
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    If the Spurs moved this yearís pick for overrated John Collins, Iíd be pretty damn pissed tbh. Have to think PATFO are smarter than that though. I hope.

    And needless to say, moving Murray for Collins and his ty at ude would be incredibly ing stupid and a disaster unless Murray makes it abundantly clear he wonít be re-signing here in 2 years.
    Last edited by BatManu20; 01-30-2022 at 07:37 PM.

  13. #238
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    If the Spurs moved this year’s pick for overrated John Collins, I’d be pretty damn pissed tbh. Have to think PATFO are smarter than that though. I hope.

    And needless to say, moving Murray for Collins and his ty at ude would be incredibly ing stupid and a disaster unless Murray makes it abundantly clear he won’t be re-signing here in 2 years.
    Wouldn't they just trade the Chicago pick?

  14. #239
    Veteran Dejounte's Avatar
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    See, at this point, I think you know you don't really have an argument but somehow became tied into your perception of some message-board beef you have to where you can't concede any ground.
    This isn't some pathetic "beef". This isn't about conceding, wins or losses, or whatever bull you're projecting towards me. It's me calling your dumbass out. It's that cut-and-dry. I can't believe that's what you wrote, and it shows how much you care about your image among the folks here that you're actively catering to and don't even know it.

    You can't with any intellectual honestly claim that I've said my opinions are fact.
    It's actually pretty easy. You're just being deliberately being ignorant about it. In fact, I'll do my best to call you out on the next one, if I catch it, that is.

    despite the fact that immediately following I say that I've been wrong and used to make threads specifically for talking about how wrong we (meaning me and anyone else who participated) were, but clearly you've gone so far off the rails that you likely got that obvious context and ignored it in an attempt to buoy your weak take.
    So you made threads however many years ago and you want a pat in the back for that. Congratulations. That has nothing to do with how frequently obnoxious you are with your takes. One would think they had learned a lesson from making those types of threads but I think you only made those so you could wear a badge just so you can brag about it later on like you're doing now.

    This is pathetic. Yes, I think you specifically talking about me has something to do with me. Rather, I think it has to do with you being obsessed with trying to drum up whatever beef you think I have. I don't have beef with you. I have disagreements with you and criticisms for some things you say, but I will agree with you on points and give you props when I think they're due, just like with any poster. You're the one who just can't handle seeing me post.

    Neither one of these stances are held by just one person. Even if they were, though, why do you think it would be better if I were to call these guys out directly? I can debate their stances without attacking them as individuals or defining their contributions on this site to be only about those stances. I have no problem quoting them directly when I want to respond to something they said, but I'm not going to just drag them into a conversation they aren't in to attack them.


    Um, no? I don't actually think "everyone else" actually identifies with those stances. I think most of them understand where my point of view sits and agree and disagree with it to various measures. I was literally following up on people who were directly attacking Bod for his stance. Even you said you didn't agree with Bod's take, so why would you think I was talking about everyone else? Like just ugh, man.
    This isn't rocket science, man. You're so convinced all my allegations towards you are empty when they're not. If this was truly "beef" as you call it, we would have more interactions like this but we don't. In this thread, you made the most scoff-worthy comment that it was too hard to ignore given your history. Apparently, that cut so deep that you're so affected by it now that you had to make all sorts of assumptions and projections towards me.

    I don't know if you think you're doing that to me or something, but if so, you should definitely stop overrating your influence. I don't think you're "picking on me". I think you're constantly whining and may have delusions about how helpful that whining is to the overall health of the forum. I think you have a role here and make good contributions, which is why I haven't put you on ignore. But your beefing and self-styled policing has never been it.
    You're making big leaps here that I don't know if you just enjoy making (incorrect) assumptions about people because of your (failed) career in psychology or what. I give you an inch, you go a mile.

    I'm sure you'll make some lame dismissive retreat and come back next time with a new specific criticism you'll try to sell as the "main thing wrong with me" or whatever. Or you could just not bother and move on to post about regular stuff and leave the beef behind. I've butt heads with many posters I get along with pretty well now. I'm not going to hold a grudge if you want to just let bygones be bygones.
    Is this a lame pre-emptive tactic to one-up me based on what you think my response will be? Again, why are you trying so hard to "win"? You want me to tell you why I don't bother replying back sometimes? It's because you're exhausting. I don't mind keeping this going if you do. It appears we have an audience, so why not? We all have an image to save by "winning" arguments like these...

  15. #240
    Veteran Dverde's Avatar
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    Seems like there are a lot of players like John Collins in the league. I donít see the hype and no way with Dejonte for him.

  16. #241
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Seems like there are a lot of players like John Collins in the league. I donít see the hype and no way with Dejonte for him.
    6í9Ē guys who have legit put down 20/10 seasons? And shoot career 38% from 3? Those guys grown on trees?

    The reality is that Josh is going to take the ball out of DJs hands next year, or the year after, anyways. Itís going to happen.

    We also donít know whoís the issue in ATL. JC puts down a 20/10 season, and suddenly his touches and shots drop two years in a row. A PG can freeze you out of the offense. Ask Sean. Isaiah Thomas did it to him when he was traded to Detroit.

  17. #242
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Seems like there are a lot of players like John Collins in the league. I don’t see the hype and no way with Dejonte for him.
    mention 5 players of his caliber

  18. #243
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    This isn't some pathetic "beef". This isn't about conceding, wins or losses, or whatever bull you're projecting towards me. It's me calling your dumbass out. It's that cut-and-dry. I can't believe that's what you wrote, and it shows how much you care about your image among the folks here that you're actively catering to and don't even know it.
    This is sad. You aren't "calling me out" by whining in a corner about how I pretend statements I lead off with, "I think..." are fact. That you seem to keep appointing yourself the person to do so and always seem to have a negative way of interpreting anything I say is why I classify it as beef. It's weird that you bring up clout or whatever on this board.

    It's actually pretty easy. You're just being deliberately being ignorant about it. In fact, I'll do my best to call you out on the next one, if I catch it, that is.
    It's not even easy to do it with intellectual dishonesty. It certainly isn't easy to do it if you read sentences like a normal human and not a semantic junkie.

    This isn't rocket science, man. You're so convinced all my allegations towards you are empty when they're not. If this was truly "beef" as you call it, we would have more interactions like this but we don't. In this thread, you made the most scoff-worthy comment that it was too hard to ignore given your history. Apparently, that cut so deep that you're so affected by it now that you had to make all sorts of assumptions and projections towards me.
    Um... no. I don't have beef with you. I'm not going to read a post from you can find it too hard to ignore your scoff-worthy comments or whatever. I don't log into my computer thinking, "Let me see if I have to catch Dejounte in some bull again." I don't care about that. I don't keep tabs on what you say, I don't analyze random posts for truth value. I don't feel the need to defend the forum by "calling you out". I just move along in my life. We have these squabbles when you decide to stir up whatever drama you want about me. Then we'll go back and forth a bit before we disengage and I go back to my regular posting until you once again schlep in here "calling me out." You're just a poster to me, a decent one who does some good things for the forum but are still one of dozens I interact with. I, apparently, am not that kind of poster to you.

    You're making big leaps here that I don't know if you just enjoy making (incorrect) assumptions about people because of your (failed) career in psychology or what. I give you an inch, you go a mile.
    This is pretty cringy. It's a non-answer to what I said (mainly because you snipped out most of it), and the attempt to throw a silly ad homenim by assuming I had anything to do with psychology is just lame.

    Is this a lame pre-emptive tactic to one-up me based on what you think my response will be? Again, why are you trying so hard to "win"? You want me to tell you why I don't bother replying back sometimes? It's because you're exhausting. I don't mind keeping this going if you do. It appears we have an audience, so why not? We all have an image to save by "winning" arguments like these..
    If I'm trying to do anything, it's cut off this silly of you making passive-aggressive comments and then multiple posts with non-arguments for no reasons and no attempt to actually support your point outside of just repeating it. I don't care about winning. I don't want you to reply when it's just vapid, irrational attacks like this. I sure don't want a back-and-forth on this derailing a perfectly good thread. So if you want to keep talking about this, you're welcome to PM me or even pick a different thread. I won't engage you more about this topic here.

  19. #244
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    mention 5 players of his caliber
    Yeah, I don't think there are a lot of them. There are some, though. I would say Randle and Sabonis are also guys potentially on the market who to various degrees can fill that PF role. Ingram would be dicier given his lack of girth. Siakam is also an option. I might be missing a couple, but I think most of the other scoring forwards with PF size are on teams that don't want to trade them.

  20. #245
    Veteran Dverde's Avatar
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    10677206[/URL]]mention 5 players of his caliber
    Off top my head bigs that shoot threes who can score 16 points and get 7-8 boards. Is he a good defender? I’ve only seen him a handful of times, and wasn’t that impressed. He’s already on a big contract.
    Pascal Siakim
    Danilo Gallinari
    Christian Wood
    Markieff Morris
    Tobias Harris

  21. #246
    Veteran Dverde's Avatar
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    To me it only makes sense to trade for Collins if you want to pair him with Murray and build around them both. Neither are good enough to propel the Spurs by themselves into le contenders.

  22. #247
    Veteran Degoat's Avatar
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    Off top my head bigs that shoot threes who can score 16 points and get 7-8 boards. Is he a good defender? I’ve only seen him a handful of times, and wasn’t that impressed. He’s already on a big contract.
    Pascal Siakim
    Danilo Gallinari
    Christian Wood
    Markieff Morris
    Tobias Harris
    honestly Id put Keldon in that group too lol maybe Jerami Grant? Jaren Jackson Jr?

  23. #248
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    I don't see at ude as a problem when it comes to Collins. He comes from a military family, that should be right up Pop's alley. As I said he also played for Wake Forest and has family in St. Croix. He clearly admires Tim Duncan.

    Basketball wise, his reputation to not being a good defender comes mainly from when the Hawks played him at the 5. His defense next to Capela was usually pretty good. Not saying he's a great defender, but he's decent and should likely improve by playing next to better defenders. If Pop can get some extra out of his players it's usually on defense. Besides that, one of the defensive issues on the Hawks is Capela not being that vocal when it comes to calling out switches and getting players into position. The Hawks main issues on defense are transition D and them trying to hide Trae Young as much as possible. Both things that won't be any issues here.

    Also if you look at Collins' numbers, there are way too many games where he gets under 10 shots per game. He averaged 21.6 PPG on 14.8 shots 2 seasons ago. He's actually super efficient, having an eFG of 59% (which is the 2nd worst of his career I might add).

    The main issues of this Spurs team are:

    3-point attempts and %
    Freethrow attempts and %
    defensive rebounds
    size
    no additional shotblocking once Poeltl is away from the rim

    Collins would fix pretty much all of this. His 3.7 FTAs would be the highest on the team. He gets 8-10 boards per game. He can protect the rim as a help defender. He can shoot from anywhere. He's quick and plays well in transition. He fits well into a motion offense, but you can iso him occassionally. He's 24 locked into a reasonable 5 year deal.

    The only minus is that you'd have to trade a pick (probably the Chicago one) and White, who would basically be amazing at setting up Collins with oops. I still think this trade would be a win-win for both teams.

  24. #249
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Off top my head bigs that shoot threes who can score 16 points and get 7-8 boards. Is he a good defender? Iíve only seen him a handful of times, and wasnít that impressed. Heís already on a big contract.
    Pascal Siakim
    Danilo Gallinari
    Christian Wood
    Markieff Morris
    Tobias Harris
    Markieff Morris averages 7.7 PPG. I assume you mean Marcus, who's over 30 and we had that story before.
    Tobias Harris is on the worst contract in the NBA besides Westbrook and worse defensively
    Gallinari is old as dirt
    Siakam shoots 7% worse from 3 and earns 10 million more per year than Collins
    Wood I agree with. Grant is another one I'd like. Probably even a better fit skill wise than Collins. That's about it

    it's also not about guys getting 16/7. It's about them being able to somewhat protect the rim and 3-point shooting. Besides that Collins with a lilttle bit more usage is a 20/10, not a 16/7 guy.
    Last edited by RC_Drunkford; 01-30-2022 at 10:14 PM.

  25. #250
    Veteran Dverde's Avatar
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    I guess the question to me is Collins for White is an easy yes, but The Hawks want more…is Collins worth giving up White AND Keldon, Devin, Primo, or the 1st round pick. Lonnie, Eubanks, Tre ain’t going to move the needle for the trade. Guessing the Spurs are saying no.

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