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  1. #76
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    I don’t want Collins, because he’s going to up our draft pick. He’s probably not even good enough to elevate this team to the playoffs given a full season. I mean, DeRozan is a far better player, and he couldn’t do it the last two years. Why would you get a guy making $23M who likely can’t even make you a playoff team?

  2. #77
    Every game is game 1 Seventyniner's Avatar
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    Ideally, I'd like the Spurs to run Murray, 2022 first, Vassell, Collins, Poeltl as the starting five next season, even if we all know the Spurs will send the guy to Austin.
    Why not put Primo in place of the 2022 1st? You think the Spurs will draft a SG with Collins on the roster?

  3. #78
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    Why not put Primo in place of the 2022 1st? You think the Spurs will draft a SG with Collins on the roster?
    According to mock drafts, there are going to be a lot of PFs and other front-court guys going at the top of the draft. That means there should be talented guards who fly under the radar. I think with Lonnie gone and Keldon not part of the (read: my) plans, the team has a hole for a scoring wing. Without Collins, the hole is definitely at PF, but with him in and Derrick (and probably Lonnie) gone, I'd definitely want the Spurs to draft some guard. It could even be a PG so long as the guy has some size and can switch off with Murray defensively. That doesn't mean I'm giving up on Primo, but I'd want the Spurs to draft a surer thing at SG to consider Josh to be found money if he develops. Hopefully both guys hit and the team has its guard rotation for the next few years.

  4. #79
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Yeah, the norm is that people should subscribe to calling people homers if you support the team in any capacity, and if not, then you’re being totally 100% reasonable. It’s only one or the other. If you have any hope whatsoever for any player on the current roster, you’re a homer. You can roll your eyes all you want, Chinook, but this voice of reason you’ve self appointed yourself as reeks of total arrogance. I’m not even supporting Mr Body as I think he’s too much at times. But I think it’s worse when someone is out here thinking he’s never wrong. Nobody actually goes and says this team is awesome but it’s such an easy thing to twist someone’s views to the extreme when you fundamentally don’t believe one thing they believe in.

    such a weak thing to subscribe to.
    Bro, I have to ask you this: If you think you're wrong about something, why would you say it? This is just the stupid, "You didn't say 'in my opinion'" argument over again. Obviously I've said wrong stuff. I used to make an annual thread where we talked about our worst take of the year. I don't actually see anyone else -- including you -- having to run around qualifying everything they say to meet your standards. I think you should admit that you don't have a good reason for your criticism besides apparent hurt feelings.

    We have a thread where people thought the Spurs were a top-five team when healthy, and when the idea was bumped, the response was, "They will be next year." And yes, there are people who do criticize people talking about acquiring other players and who don't want to engage with any discussion about the direction of the team because they believe the team is going in the best direction possible due to trusting the people running the show. My point was that the speculation and discussion over things that might but probably won't come to pass is inherent to these types of sites and not a sign of a weak cons ution or lack of discernment or whatever. I think you agree with that take but because I made it you feel the need to pretend like it's problematic.

  5. #80
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    I don’t want Collins, because he’s going to up our draft pick. He’s probably not even good enough to elevate this team to the playoffs given a full season. I mean, DeRozan is a far better player, and he couldn’t do it the last two years. Why would you get a guy making $23M who likely can’t even make you a playoff team?

    And realistically, who would you get? I'm talking about players who'd be interested in joining, not some pipe dream trades.
    We probably won't get a top5 pick either way, one or two spots won't make a difference.

    I'm not one of those fans saying everyone on our roster is useless, but they're all fundamentally flawed for modern game and unless you plan on running everyone's contract down and letting them walk, it's about time we make some trades and play to our players' strengths instead of trying to make some of them fit into roles they're not comfortable with. Derrick isn't comfortable with being the off-ball guard who has to shoot way more than he likes.

    Our roster right now is as follows.

    Guards:
    DJ - best player on the team, developed into a legit all-star. Even his 3pt shoot looks good, but he'll never be a consistent pull-up threat from deep like other all-star guards. One of the best guard defenders in the league.
    Derrick - great defender, better than DJ at running the PNR, but another subpar shooter. If we want them to fit together well on offense, we need forwards to be great 3pt shooters and a big who can stretch the floor.
    Tre - might develop into a decent backup, but another point guard with no range.
    Lonnie - we all had huge expectations, I was one of his biggest fans, he has all the tools necessary, but he's just not that guy.
    Devin - developing well, I have big expecatations. He can't run the offense at all, but should develop into a Danny Green 2.0. Definite keeper. Our best guard 3pt shooter.
    Primo - showing flashes of huge potential, but he's a year or two away. Still, definitely deserves minutes right away because we're not going anyhwere this season.

    Wings:
    Keldon - impressive 3pt percentage so far, but that's not his game. He wants to drive, bully people and draw fouls. And he can be damn good at it. Not having an actual PF next to him is really hurting him against teams with size. Instead of having him bully smaller wings and there are plenty of them in today's league, he's stuck with being the undersized guy in most matchups.
    McDermott - great at what he does, doesn't do much else.
    KBD - decent third stringer who looks good on our roster because we literally don't have a big wing. Not good enough to be anything more than 9th or 10th man in rotation.
    Weiskamp - might be useful one day.

    Bigs:
    Jakob - great at his role, useless outside of his comfort zone. If we were a team with great spacing, he'd do even better. But we have awful spacing and he's a negative on offense in a lot of games.
    Landale - could be a decent backup, nothing special.
    Eubanks - ugh.
    Collins - hopefully he can stay healthy, he'd be a great upgrade for the bench.


    Won't even mention Thad because he's in the doghouse and I think the same will happen to Hernangomez.

    There you have it, I didn't say anything we don't already know, but this roster's spacing and size is just horrible. Teams usually have size or spacing issues, we have both. Someone like Collins fixes that and enables everyone to play in their natural roles instead of trying to fit everyone in when it obviously can't work.

    Everyone on our starting lineup is a good player in their natural role. But noone is good enough to play in a badly constructed team. Just look at Demar. He's the same player he was last season, but now he has actual floor spacers and can do his thing with ease.

    Anyhow, back to my question. How would you solve the issues of this roster? What's the timeline you're looking at? If you ask me, I'd like this team to make the play-in tournament next season. If not, then by all means, get some more tank commanders on the roster.

    Imo, there are two way to fix this roster. Either make some big moves, which won't happen with PATFO.
    Second, more realistic option is to trade a player or two and get an actual power forward who spaces the floor. Collins is a perfect fit for that. Might be overpaid, but it's not like we need to hand out a couple of max deals in the summer and need the cap space. Derrick is a good player and more importantly the Hawks want him. He'd do better there than here because they'd be a better fit for him. Teams trade good players because they're a bad fit all the time. Right now unless we somehow fleece someone or draft the next big thing, our only way actually improve and get DJ, Devin and Keldon more comfortable is to trade either Derrick or Jakob. Or both. But we need some damn size at PF a big who can space the floor.

    I don't see any other realistic targets who fit the timeline.

    This turned out to be a rant, whatever.

  6. #81
    Still Sporting Ben Davis Allan Rowe vs Wade's Avatar
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    no point in getting someone who will get us a worse pick but not to the playoffs

    right now i would be holding on to the spurs' picks like grim death. we should be acquiring (or enhancing) picks, not shipping them out

  7. #82
    The Timeless One Leetonidas's Avatar
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    Lol. I only tell you that you're morons when you're being morons. Try not to be morons so much, maybe? I know it may be hard. LMAO, truly.
    You could always just stfu and off and not post in my thread. No one gives a about your whining bull anyway

  8. #83
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    And realistically, who would you get? I'm talking about players who'd be interested in joining, not some pipe dream trades.
    We probably won't get a top5 pick either way, one or two spots won't make a difference.

    I'm not one of those fans saying everyone on our roster is useless, but they're all fundamentally flawed for modern game and unless you plan on running everyone's contract down and letting them walk, it's about time we make some trades and play to our players' strengths instead of trying to make some of them fit into roles they're not comfortable with. Derrick isn't comfortable with being the off-ball guard who has to shoot way more than he likes.

    Our roster right now is as follows.

    Guards:
    DJ - best player on the team, developed into a legit all-star. Even his 3pt shoot looks good, but he'll never be a consistent pull-up threat from deep like other all-star guards. One of the best guard defenders in the league.
    Derrick - great defender, better than DJ at running the PNR, but another subpar shooter. If we want them to fit together well on offense, we need forwards to be great 3pt shooters and a big who can stretch the floor.
    Tre - might develop into a decent backup, but another point guard with no range.
    Lonnie - we all had huge expectations, I was one of his biggest fans, he has all the tools necessary, but he's just not that guy.
    Devin - developing well, I have big expecatations. He can't run the offense at all, but should develop into a Danny Green 2.0. Definite keeper. Our best guard 3pt shooter.
    Primo - showing flashes of huge potential, but he's a year or two away. Still, definitely deserves minutes right away because we're not going anyhwere this season.

    Wings:
    Keldon - impressive 3pt percentage so far, but that's not his game. He wants to drive, bully people and draw fouls. And he can be damn good at it. Not having an actual PF next to him is really hurting him against teams with size. Instead of having him bully smaller wings and there are plenty of them in today's league, he's stuck with being the undersized guy in most matchups.
    McDermott - great at what he does, doesn't do much else.
    KBD - decent third stringer who looks good on our roster because we literally don't have a big wing. Not good enough to be anything more than 9th or 10th man in rotation.
    Weiskamp - might be useful one day.

    Bigs:
    Jakob - great at his role, useless outside of his comfort zone. If we were a team with great spacing, he'd do even better. But we have awful spacing and he's a negative on offense in a lot of games.
    Landale - could be a decent backup, nothing special.
    Eubanks - ugh.
    Collins - hopefully he can stay healthy, he'd be a great upgrade for the bench.


    Won't even mention Thad because he's in the doghouse and I think the same will happen to Hernangomez.

    There you have it, I didn't say anything we don't already know, but this roster's spacing and size is just horrible. Teams usually have size or spacing issues, we have both. Someone like Collins fixes that and enables everyone to play in their natural roles instead of trying to fit everyone in when it obviously can't work.

    Everyone on our starting lineup is a good player in their natural role. But noone is good enough to play in a badly constructed team. Just look at Demar. He's the same player he was last season, but now he has actual floor spacers and can do his thing with ease.

    Anyhow, back to my question. How would you solve the issues of this roster? What's the timeline you're looking at? If you ask me, I'd like this team to make the play-in tournament next season. If not, then by all means, get some more tank commanders on the roster.

    Imo, there are two way to fix this roster. Either make some big moves, which won't happen with PATFO.
    Second, more realistic option is to trade a player or two and get an actual power forward who spaces the floor. Collins is a perfect fit for that. Might be overpaid, but it's not like we need to hand out a couple of max deals in the summer and need the cap space. Derrick is a good player and more importantly the Hawks want him. He'd do better there than here because they'd be a better fit for him. Teams trade good players because they're a bad fit all the time. Right now unless we somehow fleece someone or draft the next big thing, our only way actually improve and get DJ, Devin and Keldon more comfortable is to trade either Derrick or Jakob. Or both. But we need some damn size at PF a big who can space the floor.

    I don't see any other realistic targets who fit the timeline.

    This turned out to be a rant, whatever.
    I’m not totally averse to him this summer after the draft (and yes, we have a pretty good chance at a top 4 pick). I’m just not unsure that you can’t get 85-90% of his production from Jalen Smith at 30-40% of the cost. If you can’t make the playoffs, take chances like we did with Zollins, and keep your cap space powder dry.

    I’m for the ‘slow and steady wins the race’ approach, like Cleveland did. They rented their cap space, and just used their first rounders well, until suddenly, they’re a top half EC playoff team. If anyone told you this summer they knew this was going to happen, go ahead now, and call them a liar.

    As for the draft, we have a great shot at a top 4 pick with the new system. Since it’s inception, the following teams have jumped into the top 4:

    2019: 7,8,11
    2020: 7,8
    2021: 5,7

    So, out of 12 total top 4 picks, 7 were made by teams starting outside the top 4. The cherry on top is that the worst team has never drawn the #1 pick under the new system. We’re currently sitting at #7, which seems to be particularly and appropriately lucky, getting into the top 4 each year..

  9. #84
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I will say this, if the Spurs get Collins you can forget about the tank. They will gun for the play in hard af and they'd probably get it. Thats less than ideal at this point in the season. On the other hand, if they don't pick up anyone very good at the deadline - and especially if they offload poeltl - then I fully expect the team to start playing Primo in Lonnies minutes. Out of those two options, I still want Collins. I think the sure thing at PF locked up for 4+ years is better than a draftpick who might turn out to be better but might also turn out to be worse.

  10. #85
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    I would rather not get any new long term contracts until the next coach comes over and decidedly has a plan for the player we are trading for. There's zero point in getting Collins if Pop is going to retire at the end of they year. Stick with absorbing bad contracts and collecting FRPs. We should not be any type of buyer without receiving a pick in return

  11. #86
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    I’m not totally averse to him this summer after the draft (and yes, we have a pretty good chance at a top 4 pick). I’m just not unsure that you can’t get 85-90% of his production from Jalen Smith at 30-40% of the cost. If you can’t make the playoffs, take chances like we did with Zollins, and keep your cap space powder dry.

    I’m for the ‘slow and steady wins the race’ approach, like Cleveland did. They rented their cap space, and just used their first rounders well, until suddenly, they’re a top half EC playoff team. If anyone told you this summer they knew this was going to happen, go ahead now, and call them a liar.

    As for the draft, we have a great shot at a top 4 pick with the new system. Since it’s inception, the following teams have jumped into the top 4:

    2019: 7,8,11
    2020: 7,8
    2021: 5,7

    So, out of 12 total top 4 picks, 7 were made by teams starting outside the top 4. The cherry on top is that the worst team has never drawn the #1 pick under the new system. We’re currently sitting at #7, which seems to be particularly and appropriately lucky, getting into the top 4 each year..
    This is where I’m at in many ways also. I like Collins and see him as a pretty good fit, I think his contract is reasonable and he would be a solid building block to go along with Murray but I’d be more interested in him after the draft/during free agency. If we can get him for White and some combo of Walker, Thad, McDermott and SRPs (Detroit's 22 is basically a late FRP) I would still make it at the deadline. Otherwise, i’ll wait and see where our chips fall come offseason. The ability to draft some of the intriguing PFs in this years draft are preferable unless there is a clear cut guard/wing we are targeting.

  12. #87
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    I don’t understand posters who want to offload Poeltl because he’s a ‘win now player’ yet want John Collins, who is also very much a ‘win now player’, and one whole year younger than Jakob.

  13. #88
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    I would rather not get any new long term contracts until the next coach comes over and decidedly has a plan for the player we are trading for. There's zero point in getting Collins if Pop is going to retire at the end of they year. Stick with absorbing bad contracts and collecting FRPs. We should not be any type of buyer without receiving a pick in return
    Onboard with this. Probably is we don’t seem very capable at renting cap space.

  14. #89
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    I will say this, if the Spurs get Collins you can forget about the tank. They will gun for the play in hard af and they'd probably get it. Thats less than ideal at this point in the season. On the other hand, if they don't pick up anyone very good at the deadline - and especially if they offload poeltl - then I fully expect the team to start playing Primo in Lonnies minutes. Out of those two options, I still want Collins. I think the sure thing at PF locked up for 4+ years is better than a draftpick who might turn out to be better but might also turn out to be worse.
    Yup, which probably makes this trade idea better fodder for the summer since both Derrick and Collins are both under contract long term.

    That aside, the Collins thing really feels like it’s going to get wrapped up in the Harden decision now. In that world the spurs are like 3 steps removed from that line up of dominoes, so probably better to focus on getting our PF in the draft.

  15. #90
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    I don’t understand posters who want to offload Poeltl because he’s a ‘win now player’ yet want John Collins, who is also very much a ‘win now player’, and one whole year younger than Jakob.
    From my perspective Collins has more upside. Both win now players but I think there is a good chance he can get better on both sides of the ball.

  16. #91
    Veteran NASpurs's Avatar
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    I understand both sides of the coin when it comes to people wanting to get a high lottery pick or trading for a player that could get us in the play-ins.

    But the most important thing out of this whole situation is that Forbes is gone. Fvck! that guy.

  17. #92
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Yup, which probably makes this trade idea better fodder for the summer since both Derrick and Collins are both under contract long term.

    That aside, the Collins thing really feels like it’s going to get wrapped up in the Harden decision now. In that world the spurs are like 3 steps removed from that line up of dominoes, so probably better to focus on getting our PF in the draft.
    Brooklyn has said they will basically hang up on anyone calling about Harden at the trade deadline. Dame has been injured most of the season, and Beal seems content in DC, so the whole Simmons thing will probably roll into the summer FA/trade period.

  18. #93
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I don’t understand posters who want to offload Poeltl because he’s a ‘win now player’ yet want John Collins, who is also very much a ‘win now player’, and one whole year younger than Jakob.
    Collins is locked in for years having just signed a contract. Poeltl is about to go into free agency after next year. Collins is on a reasonable deal. Jakob is on a cheap deal, that may end up in a reasonable deal, but will more likely get overpaid and not be nearly as good a value. Collins is a needed piece that is much harder to fill. Jakob is an above average defensive center who has lots of offensive holes and is MUCH easier to replace.

    Also, Collins is just flat out much better than Jakob.

    Its not really hard to understand.

  19. #94
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    It would 100% be preferable to do a Collins deal in the offseason. But its also not even close to a sure thing that you CAN do that deal in the offseason. First, Collins is a good player under contract for a long ass time. The amount of suitors in the offseason will increase tremendously, and that's beyond the fact that there will be other teams that want him right NOW. Atlanta could also figure out that trading him is stupid as they are unlikely to get good value for him.

    If its possible to trade white + filler + a FRP for Collins now, you do it.

  20. #95
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    From my perspective Collins has more upside. Both win now players but I think there is a good chance he can get better on both sides of the ball.
    Decent take, but I think after 5 seasons, a guy drafted at #19 isn’t going to show any shocking improvements. YMMV.

  21. #96
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    I don’t understand posters who want to offload Poeltl because he’s a ‘win now player’ yet want John Collins, who is also very much a ‘win now player’, and one whole year younger than Jakob.
    Can't speak for everyone (even if I'm the self-appointed voice of reason). But for me, I don't just have one desired course of action for the team. If the Spurs could acquire Collins without moving Poeltl, I would want them to keep him. They'd be in a win-now situation at that point. If they decided to collect picks and tank, I want them to trade Poeltl, because without an aggressive move, they won't be a compe or over the life of his contract.

    Murray, Vassell, Collins and Poeltl are four members of what could be a strong and balanced starting unit. Without too much imagination, they could get a near-max slot this summer to add a missing piece. Or the perfect win-now player could fall to them in the draft. In my opinion, that's worth trading protected Spurs picks to secure. But there are drastically different courses of actions the Spurs could take, and at each step in those courses, I have preferred follow-up moves I'd advocate the team to make.

  22. #97
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Collins is locked in for years having just signed a contract. Poeltl is about to go into free agency after next year. Collins is on a reasonable deal. Jakob is on a cheap deal, that may end up in a reasonable deal, but will more likely get overpaid and not be nearly as good a value. Collins is a needed piece that is much harder to fill. Jakob is an above average defensive center who has lots of offensive holes and is MUCH easier to replace.

    Also, Collins is just flat out much better than Jakob.

    Its not really hard to understand.
    The point was that they’re both win now players. Either you want to come out of the tank, or not. I’m not doubting that Collins improves us, just how much, and is that the path for us to take.

  23. #98
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    Dejounte Murray - keep
    Devin Vassell - keep
    Joshua Primo - keep

    Jakob Poeltl - tradable
    Keldon Johnson - tradable
    Derrick White - tradable
    Doug McDermott - tradable
    Thaddeus Young - tradable
    Lonnie Walker IV - tradable
    Keita Bates-Diop - tradable
    Tre Jones - tradable

    Jock Landale - tradable/cut
    Drew Eubanks - tradable/cut
    Juancho Hernangómez - tradable/cut

    Joe Wieskamp - wait and see

    Zach Collins - wait and see/tradable/cut

    Devontae Cacok - doesn't matter
    Tre Jones is a keep type player. He dont do to much an he knows his place. Other than that, I love your list.

  24. #99
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Chinook makes a good point too. Its not either or. If they get Collins for white + filler + pick then there is no reason to trade Jakob.

  25. #100
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    Decent take, but I think after 5 seasons, a guy drafted at #19 isn’t going to show any shocking improvements. YMMV.
    It's more about opportunity. Upside to become a more focal point of an offense.

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