I'm not at all opposed to moving Jak since he's more a win now kind of piece while the Spurs are far from being a team ready to compete at a high level, but if I'm trading a productive big who is a known asset in the prime of his career and on a wildly cap friendly contract for a guy who is so far a bust two years into his career, I need another asset coming back too. Wiseman is super high risk after two lost years. I think the Spurs can find a better deal than Poetl for Wiseman straight up, especially since they could also throw Lonnie Walker in as a sign and trade this summer.
Although it scares the out of me that the Spurs were supposedly very high on Josh Jackson and then how in love with Derrick Favors RC was when he was drafted. Ugh Favors might actually be one of the better cases for how Wiseman develops too. I think I'd hate to give Murray up for a pick.
Plenty big men took four plus years to develop into All-Stars. Many thought Ayton was going to be a bust and he’s about to get a max contract. Story isn’t written yet on Wiseman. I think he needs a young team like the Spurs to develop around not The Warriors. The situation reminds me of Darko Milicic (not that I’m saying he was good) where a #2 pick goes to a loaded team and can’t seem to find the right role on the team.
What kind of gamble is it? We know it isn’t 50% chance Wiseman vs 50% Tatum. More like 95% Wiseman vs 5% Tatum. We have to consider these odds and what is being given up, because I’m not so sure people understand what Murray means to this team.
Let’s expand it further:
Would I trade Murray (an already All-Star who put up historic numbers this season, one of the very few stars who plays on both ends of basketball, and is likely to get better) for a top 3 pick who could end up between James Wiseman (and countless other busts) or Jayson Tatum?
My answer is still no.
This sounds like a repeat of last summer where many were entertaining the thought of trading Murray for Ben Simmons. Appealing back then, very foolish now.
Like you said, this depends on how much the Spurs trust their talent evaluators… but the odds are so against that pick being a generational talent (it would have to be for the Spurs not to lose that trade) and the odds of that pick being better than Murray aren’t even that great either. I’ve done a thread analyzing the statistics of a top 3 pick being a star. It’s less than 5%. I imagine the odds for a generational talent (LeBron, Hakeem, TD) is less than 1%.
This is all ignoring the fact that Murray is a bonafide Spurs leader and removing him would basically alienate the rest of the team. Murray is the only bridge left that connects the past (the Big 3) to the present.
Last edited by Dejounte; 04-12-2022 at 09:35 PM.
Letting a good player walk cause you can’t or won’t pay that player should never happen. Meaning they should have an agreed amount for next contract wink wink or they should trade him if they know they can’t afford them. As far as Poodle if we’re not going to pay him then we better trade him and the return should be good
I agree with the reasoning, but Darko Milicic didn't bust out because he went to a loaded team, but because he was actually HORRIBLE. Was drafted solely on the infatuation of a Detroit scout named Tony Ronzone and his ESPN friend Chad Ford who wrote pieces about him making him out to be the next generational big, and a few minutes in a private workout sold management, but there was nothing of substance that would indicate he was that good of a talent. There are a lot of examples that support your point, Jermaine O'Neal comes to mind. But Darko just isn't one of them.
I too think Wiseman has a future ahead of him. But he needs are more pnr offense and not the motion offense of the warriors. I would do Wiseman and kamiga for Poeltl and diop.
I'm thinking 3 years time.
Ayton has been a rock solid player since the day he set foot on an NBA floor. Wiseman is no comparison to Ayton's first two years.
They’re not moving both of their young assets.
Take a look at this guy... https://www.basketball-reference.com...onealje01.html
Big men can take longer to develop... of course doesn't guarantee that all of them will, but it just warrants a little bit extra patience... specially if they have been injured most of the time. He can still turn things around, he's no Hasheem Thabeet
You want the Warriors to trade both Kumminga and Wiseman for a one year rental of Poeltl + a fringe rotation player in Bates-Diop?They wouldn't trade Kumminga for Dejounte straight up... let's be serious people... you guys are way overrating our guys and undervaluing others.
Last edited by Ariel; 04-12-2022 at 09:46 PM.
There's always a risk. The point I've been trying to make is that you either have to pick a player that complements the current roster, or try to find a unicorn and build a whole roster around him. If you're going to re-structure an entire roster, you have to really know that your rookie is a unicorn. And there aren't many of those.
Memphis has built a pretty strong roster around a bunch of dogs who are ready for a fight every night. I don't know if they're ready for a Championship, but I really like that team. It helps that they have Morant, but they have a bunch of guys who complement each other pretty well, and play with at ude. I asked someone earlier what they are looking for in a guy who could dominate. To me, it's aggression and a little bit of... arrogance?
I liked Desmond Bane coming out of college for that reason. Last year I like Davion Mitc for the same reason. In college, they called Mitc "Off Night" because the players he defended always had an "off night". If you were looking for that kind of toughness and aggression in the group likely to go in the first round, who do you think of? When I started thinking about that, the one guy who stood out was Eason. The fact that he fits the position the Spurs need the most just make him that much better to me.
The combine could change things, but the more I look at this, if the Spurs don't get a lottery pick, I'm pretty comfortable with Eason at #9. He fits the roster needs, and he's got more of the junkyard in him than any of the other players I've looked at. I wouldn't tag him as a franchise, but I would add him to this roster, and then add pieces. If a unicorn comes along in the next couple of years, even better.
Sorry, I don't see Rasheed Wallace, Arvydas Sabonis, and Brian Grant already there in Golden State there to stop Wiseman from getting minutes. Wiseman is a tantalizing prospect but I still see him more likely to bust than make an allstar team, so I want another asset in addition if I'm giving GS Poetl who is a known and quite good quan y in his prime on a cap friendly contract.Take a look at this guy... https://www.basketball-reference.com...onealje01.html
Big men can take longer to develop... of course doesn't guarantee that all of them will, but it just warrants a little bit extra patience... specially if they have been injured most of the time. He can still turn things around, he's no Hasheem Thabeet
Even early on Jermaine O'Neal showed way more than wiseman ever had. Talk about a comparison.
Plus Wiseman actually got significant minutes in Golden State unlike O'Neal in Portland.
That's hindsight speaking. Back in the day he was seen largely as a bust drafted out of high school hype. Wiseman played 39 games and hasn't played in a year. I get that some might not find his contract enticing or too risky, but writing him off as a player because of that blows my mind.
Oh, man, I hate to just be argumentative - especially when there'a a lot of good basketball being kicked around. Are you sure you aren't thinking of someone else? Ayton started 70 games as a rookie, and put up 17+ points and 10+ boards. That's a prety big load for a rookie. I think you just crossed players when you were thinking he was ever a bust. But if there's something else you're looking at, lay it on us. To me the biggest problem with Ayton is that he's restricted, and the second biggest is that a numbrer of other teams will be trying to sign him. For the Spurs, in particular, it's a drawback that he can't drop out and shoot 3's.
You're right, though, that C's take years to develop. I always say 3, but 4 isn't unusual. Ayton is sort of an exception. I would love to have him at the 5, I just wouldn't want the probably-max contract that he's going to get.
I didn't even mention picks. And Poeltl in the warriors would be perfect for them.
Ayton was never considered a bust, just a bad no 1 pick because Luka and Trey were drafted behind him. But that's another matter.
Maybe I’m misremembering. I do remember Ayton’s ability to defend in the NBA being questioned as a rookie and many thought the Suns blew the pick with Luka and Trae Young being picked after him. He was stat padding on a bad Suns team until Chris Paul arrived.
I'd do Jak for Kumiga straight up in a heartbeat, so at that point Wiseman for KBD is kind of a toss in. I'd do this in an instant, but there is no way GSW would.
No he wasn't. He was considered a promising player stuck behind a ton of high end veteran talent on a le contender. And I'm not writing Wiseman off. I'm saying he's more likely to be a bust than an allstar. I don't know how that's controversial two years into his career with his lackluster play and injury problems. Him being a #2 pick two years ago is meaningless when we're looking at him with two years of hindsight.
You'd think spurs would offload some picks. And then warriors look at using picks to get out of Wiggins. Ie Barnes.
Spurs are not trading Murray for any pick. Stay serious people. Nor should they.
They traded George, a role player, for the #15 pick when they had TD, Manu and TP... That's about it.
Some people seem to be underselling this team. You have the core in place and they will only improve. This isn't the old nba where the game is playe inside out its now outside in with a ton off athleticism needed. DJ is the leader he stays Lonnie stays let these dude improve there shooting even further. Vas sell will be special he is a complete package and Keldon as well.
Now is is when the next moves are extremely crucial. You don't keep trading or trade a player like DJ and hop and wait for a generational player. That may never happen and then that's when you become Sacramento and keep rebuilding adding the same pieces developing them trading them etc, that's a vicious cycle.
you take some of your spare parts with value and some of those picks and some cap space and take this team to a different level.
-i definitely resign Lonnie
- if I can trade Jakob and say Mcbuckets and have to add a pick for John Collins I do it keeps the teem your adds some playoff experience and a better skill set. This does not eat into your cap space.
- with all the assets we have you can either draft and wait or trade for what we need.
- sign Mitc Robinson that's your rim protection or back plan try for Mo Bamba
- we have the picks and money to field a young powerful up and coming team that could be a power if done right. Maybe biased but we do have a core we have the picks and have the cash.
- Primo and Vassell will be superstars Keldon a star and DJ is already a star and still improving.
We jave have the ammo its up to the front office to make the right moves.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
