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  1. #801
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Discussion is fine and a healthy result of the 1619 Project, especially when it comes to the accuracy of claims, but it seems conservatives can't help but spiral that discussion into some version of "Progressives want to destroy our country and make children ashamed of themselves" at the outset.

    What are the beloved and necessary American ins utions the NY Times and progressives supposedly want to deconstruct here?
    What is there to discuss? Alternative facts as Nikole Hannah Jones sees it? Facts are facts - there's nothing to discuss, particularly when several historians repeatedly point out the numerous factual errors of the project. Why is that hard for you to recognize?

  2. #802
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    What is there to discuss? Alternative facts as Nikole Hannah Jones sees it? Facts are facts - there's nothing to discuss, particularly when several historians repeatedly point out the numerous factual errors of the project. Why is that hard for you to recognize?
    Seems like if there are ins utions that progressives are bent on dismantling and rebuilding, we should discuss those specifics.

    I don't have any allegiance (or really even that much interest) in the 1619 Project, except insofar as it has triggered the Republican Party into trying to prevent schools from teaching about anything related to race history in the United States.

  3. #803
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Amateur psychoanalyst take aside, we agree that the right systemically lies and that has real consequences. But this is a thread about "woke" -- and the example of the 1619 Project shows how the left also lies and how those lies have consequences. Both can be true - but you're deflecting attention away from a paradigmatic example of what "woke" portends to be and why it's a bankrupt project. Why can't you just say that you agree without giving in to playing the whatabout game?
    What are the consequences of specific 1619 inaccuracies?

  4. #804
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    Check out her comments on Europe and the War in Ukraine. Countless extremists like these have recently infiltrated American academia.

  5. #805
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Check out her comments on Europe and the War in Ukraine. Countless extremists like these have recently infiltrated American academia.
    Post the ones that trigger you the most.

    @ thinking academia has been "infiltrated" and "recently"

  6. #806
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I don't think they are either -- I'm not a fan of the right. But why are you asking this question? To engage in whataboutism? Do you think the repeated and do ented inaccuracies of the 1619 Project do or don't matter?
    I have no problem with criticizing anyone for putative inaccuracies, but the article you posted is full of the same sort of psycholgizing and bellyaching you're complaining about. Claiming the 1619 folks hate liberty and equality and want to wreck society is pure purple prose. It's also notable that none of the inaccuracies you're bittching about are actually spelled out, the author just waves at them from afar.

    For all I know, you and he might be correct, I'm not super familiar with the 1619 project apart from the backlash against it. I don't base my takes here on it and I can't think of anyone else who does, why do you want to talk about it?

    If you're using it as an example of how progressive rhetoric about US history makes people upset that's obviously correct. If you hate it because it's inaccurate or incompetent that's fine too. Just trying to see the context of your complaining, it's not totally clear.

  7. #807
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    Post the ones that trigger you the most.

    @ thinking academia has been "infiltrated" and "recently"
    Don't get me wrong, the Right also has its extremists

    IMO Post Obama we had an initiative (that I supported) to bring diverse thought and viewpoints. Basically ended up just black. And alot of these types have proven to be extremist pushing divisive opinions. Which is understandable in current day America. But when it effects the youth and especially very young. It's not the biggest issue faced by today's western young (which is already handling so much) but it's on the top half. Empowering the few at the cost of the majority. IMO it contributes to the explosive suicide rates here.
    Last edited by FrostKing; 12-05-2022 at 02:16 PM.

  8. #808
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, the Right also has its extremists

    IMO Post Obama we had an initiative (that I supported) to bring diverse thought and viewpoints. Basically ended up just black. And alot of these types have proven to be extremist pushing divisive opinions.
    Show your numbers backing up your claim.

    And the Hannah-Jones comments that triggered you the most.

    Thank you in advance for not deflecting.

  9. #809
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Facts don't matter. Expertise, rigor, and methodology can and should be disregarded if they don't agree with your political agenda. This is QAnon for the other end of the ideological spectrum.
    dont think q anon can be lumped along with just about every innacurrate claim/belief

  10. #810
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Seems like if there are ins utions that progressives are bent on dismantling and rebuilding, we should discuss those specifics.

    I don't have any allegiance (or really even that much interest) in the 1619 Project, except insofar as it has triggered the Republican Party into trying to prevent schools from teaching about anything related to race history in the United States.
    And you don't think that the start of that conversation should be whether the 1619 Project got it right in the first place? I understand the fixation to try and paint criticism as sensationalized, but you and others are having a real hard time 1) acknowledging that the 1619 Project is wrong, sometimes egregiously so and 2) condemning it for being wrong. This is the same ends/means the right does all the time too.

  11. #811
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    dont think q anon can be lumped along with just about every innacurrate claim/belief
    I was speaking in terms of methodology. In that, both the 1619 Project and QAnon disregard facts in service of a higher agenda.

  12. #812
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    What are the consequences of specific 1619 inaccuracies?
    https://1619education.org/

    Nice job not answering the question, but I'll try again: why can't you just say you agree is wrong on its history and that its inaccuracies presents a problem?

  13. #813
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    I have no problem with criticizing anyone for putative inaccuracies, but the article you posted is full of the same sort of psycholgizing and bellyaching you're complaining about. Claiming the 1619 folks hate liberty and equality and want to wreck society is pure purple prose. It's also notable that none of the inaccuracies you're bittching about are actually spelled out, the author just waves at them from afar.

    For all I know, you and he might be correct, I'm not super familiar with the 1619 project apart from the backlash against it. I don't base my takes here on it and I can't think of anyone else who does, why do you want to talk about it?

    If you're using it as an example of how progressive rhetoric about US history makes people upset that's obviously correct. If you hate it because it's inaccurate or incompetent that's fine too. Just trying to see the context of your complaining, it's not totally clear.
    Those inaccuracies are spelled out in the article - specifically with the quote from Gordon S. Wood. I could post more detailed explanations from Wood and others on why the 1619 Project gets it wrong if you cared (I know you don't).

    My point in posting this is threefold: 1) its relevant to the topic; 2) its wrong on the facts and should be criticized and rejected as such 2) its supporters use the same ends-justify-the-means approach that the right uses, and so is notably for that similarity. Relatedly, I find it telling that those ostensibly defending the project resort to all sorts of irrelevant tangents like "America is racist" and "stop hyperpolizing the demise of America" when neither of those two points are relevant to the central key that the project's ideology is based on blatant falsehoods. In KarrinS fashion, several posters won't even acknowledge the project's inaccuracies.

  14. #814
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Those inaccuracies are spelled out in the article - specifically with the quote from Gordon S. Wood. I could post more detailed explanations from Wood and others on why the 1619 Project gets it wrong if you cared (I know you don't).
    Looks like a dispute over interpretation to me, dressed up with a rhetorical argument.

    My point in posting this is threefold: 1) its relevant to the topic; 2) its wrong on the facts and should be criticized and rejected as such 2) its supporters use the same ends-justify-the-means approach that the right uses, and so is notably for that similarity. Relatedly, I find it telling that those ostensibly defending the project resort to all sorts of irrelevant tangents like "America is racist" and "stop hyperpolizing the demise of America" when neither of those two points are relevant to the central key that the project's ideology is based on blatant falsehoods. In KarrinS fashion, several posters won't even acknowledge the project's inaccuracies.
    Again, those inaccuracies haven't been spelled out. What's posted above are interpretive disputes rather than factual inaccuracies imho. Maybe you could be more specific about what you're talking about instead of continuing to hand wave, but it seem pretty clear what you're up to is pretending your objection to NHJ, et al applies to everyone here.

    Same sort of lazy, broad brush analogizing you seem to be criticizing, tbh.

  15. #815
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    https://1619education.org/

    Nice job not answering the question, but I'll try again: why can't you just say you agree is wrong on its history and that its inaccuracies presents a problem?
    I already agreed. I'm glad you agree the right is worse in this regard with real world consequences.

    I'm not going to read your link because I asked you a direct question you did a nice job of not answering.

    I'll try again.

    What are the consequences of specific 1619 inaccuracies?

  16. #816
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    IT SERVES A WOKIST HIGHER AGENDA

  17. #817
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    vy65 got incensed by gamergate and has been on the warpath against so-called SJWs ever since, tbh.

  18. #818
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    And you don't think that the start of that conversation should be whether the 1619 Project got it right in the first place? I understand the fixation to try and paint criticism as sensationalized, but you and others are having a real hard time 1) acknowledging that the 1619 Project is wrong, sometimes egregiously so and 2) condemning it for being wrong. This is the same ends/means the right does all the time too.
    I actually don't think that needs to be the start of the conversation, because if that was the case we'd have endless reams of online content on which to apply this litmus and signal our disapproval of untruths and inaccuracies. That would be exhausting. I haven't read it, so I can't comment confidently about its accuracy. I'm content to assume the conclusions of the blog you posted are valid (specific to the 1619 content) for the purposes of this conversation.

    What I'm more interested in - as would be the case for most people - and therefore what the start of the conversation should be, is "The New York Times published content that liberals are using to fundamentally reshape the United States, and here's how."

  19. #819
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Looks like a dispute over interpretation to me, dressed up with a rhetorical argument.
    That's great. Pullitzer prize winning tenured professors of history at several universities say it's a dispute over facts, not interpretation. But yeah, you're probably more qualified than they to arbitrate the question.

    Again, those inaccuracies haven't been spelled out. What's posted above are interpretive disputes rather than factual inaccuracies imho. Maybe you could be more specific about what you're talking about instead of continuing to hand wave, but it seem pretty clear what you're up to is pretending your objection to NHJ, et al applies to everyone here.

    Same sort of lazy, broad brush analogizing you seem to be criticizing, tbh.
    Those inaccuracies have been spelled out including: a) was Britain threatening to end slavery when the revolutionary war broke out (they weren't); b) were American's pro or anti-abolitionism in 1776 (pro in the North); c) was America at the front of the effort to end the international slave trade (they were). I also offered to provide numerous other expert accounts of the specific factual inaccuracies but did not because I didn't think you were interested in hearing the other side of the issue (you're not).

    It's both telling and sad that you throw out accusations of laziness and handwaving when the only person guilty of doing so is you.

  20. #820
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    I already agreed. I'm glad you agree the right is worse in this regard with real world consequences.

    I'm not going to read your link because I asked you a direct question you did a nice job of not answering.

    I'll try again.

    What are the consequences of specific 1619 inaccuracies?
    I linked you to the curriculum being developed by the 1619 project to teach K-12 students incorrect history. You clearly didn't bother clicking the link. But I'm glad you're not like WH and can acknowledge that the project has their facts wrong.

  21. #821
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    IT SERVES A WOKIST HIGHER AGENDA
    Same sort of lazy, broad brush analogizing you seem to be criticizing, tbh.

  22. #822
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    vy65 got incensed by gamergate and has been on the warpath against so-called SJWs ever since, tbh.
    That clearly left a mark. But your deflection here is noted, along with your tacit acknowledgement of being wrong on this. But hey, ends justify the means, right?

  23. #823
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    I actually don't think that needs to be the start of the conversation, because if that was the case we'd have endless reams of online content on which to apply this litmus and signal our disapproval of untruths and inaccuracies. That would be exhausting. I haven't read it, so I can't comment confidently about its accuracy. I'm content to assume the conclusions of the blog you posted are valid (specific to the 1619 content) for the purposes of this conversation.

    What I'm more interested in - as would be the case for most people - and therefore what the start of the conversation should be, is "The New York Times published content that liberals are using to fundamentally reshape the United States, and here's how."
    Thanks for this. We have a very different view on methodology. Facts are facts, and starting out with an agenda and reshaping facts to fit that narrative is misguided, if not outright wrong because it leads to wrong results. The facts undergirding the 1619 Project's narrative of America's founding as an attempt to perpetuate a slavocracy are wrong. A conversation that starts with those assumptions will be misguided and ultimately produce bad results. Garbage in/garbage out.

  24. #824
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    Repugs plan to punish woke companies that have done nothing illegal

    punish ESG companies that have not done anything illegal

    Desantis wanted to use the govt to punish Disney for $10Ms, Disney having done nothing illegal

    Fascists use the power of govt to punish people, orgs who oppose, in total free legality, their fascist politics.

    Financed by the fascist Capitalist oligarchy, the fascist Repugs will inevitably turn USA into a facsist/Christian govt, punishing everybody who opposes them, like Xi does in China.

    SCOTUS6 fascists will open the irreversible gates to fascism by ruling ISLT is Cons utional
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 12-05-2022 at 09:51 PM.

  25. #825
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I linked you to the curriculum being developed by the 1619 project to teach K-12 students incorrect history. You clearly didn't bother clicking the link. But I'm glad you're not like WH and can acknowledge that the project has their facts wrong.
    Which schools have adopted this curriculum and is is against the law to mention other sources or viewpoints like it has become in several red states?

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