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  1. #151
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Mark Williams was better in college than Deandre Ayton

    https://www.tankathon.com/players/co...-deandre-ayton

  2. #152
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    Mark Williams was better in college than Deandre Ayton

    https://www.tankathon.com/players/co...-deandre-ayton
    Mr. Body you're smart and we know that they are not the same type of player. Williams is a pure paint guy, Ayton is more polished offensively and is better at pretty everything else except the blocks.

  3. #153
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    I’m not sure what you are arguing by posting 5yr old footage of his college career.
    you would not find an Ayton type of player in this draft my friend. Maybe you did not saw him in NCAA.

  4. #154
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Mr. Body you're smart and we know that they are not the same type of player. Williams is a pure paint guy, Ayton is more polished offensively and is better at pretty everything else except the blocks.
    Williams is a vastly better defender. It's not even close. I don't even think Ayton's that good offensively -- he's dependent on Mr. Chris Paul. Once Paul leaves, both Ayton and Booker will decline to where they were before he was acquired. Ayton is way too expensive for not giving you what you actually need at the position.

  5. #155
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    Williams is a vastly better defender. It's not even close. I don't even think Ayton's that good offensively -- he's dependent on Mr. Chris Paul. Once Paul leaves, both Ayton and Booker will decline to where they were before he was acquired. Ayton is way too expensive for not giving you what you actually need at the position.
    defensively ok at protecting the rim but not for the rebounds. Ayton is a good rebounder imo and i could be wrong but i think Phoenix system undervalue him on offense.

    For the price im ok with you, i think he is worth less than the max like a lot of guys who'll have that money. But imo he can give you 20-10 every night with good presence on the post.

  6. #156
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    defensively ok at protecting the rim but not for the rebounds. Ayton is a good rebounder imo and i could be wrong but i think Phoenix system undervalue him on offense.

    For the price im ok with you, i think he is worth less than the max like a lot of guys who'll have that money. But imo he can give you 20-10 every night with good presence on the post.
    Or I could get 15 and 10 from Jak for half the price.

  7. #157
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    Or I could get 15 and 10 from Jak for half the price.
    you talked about the draft. Yes maybe for Yak , i don't think it will be for half of the price if Poetl have another good season.

  8. #158
    The Timeless One Leetonidas's Avatar
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    Williams is a vastly better defender. It's not even close. I don't even think Ayton's that good offensively -- he's dependent on Mr. Chris Paul. Once Paul leaves, both Ayton and Booker will decline to where they were before he was acquired. Ayton is way too expensive for not giving you what you actually need at the position.
    Not that it's a huge sample but he isn't dependent on Paul. His two seasons prior to Paul coming he posted solid numbers (16/10 on 59% and 18/11 on 55%). Only thing that has really gone up with Paul is his FG%. I think he will be fine with Murray setting him up

    But I'm also not convinced that paying your C max money when he isn't Jokic/Embiid is not a recipe for success. Just think Ayton is a bit better than you're portraying him

    In the two seasons with Paul, Ayton is averaging 11 FGA/game (for context, Walker IV attempts about 10 shots a game). I think he has more room to grow on the offensive side tbh

  9. #159
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Not that it's a huge sample but he isn't dependent on Paul. His two seasons prior to Paul coming he posted solid numbers (16/10 on 59% and 18/11 on 55%). Only thing that has really gone up with Paul is his FG%. I think he will be fine with Murray setting him up

    But I'm also not convinced that paying your C max money when he isn't Jokic/Embiid is not a recipe for success. Just think Ayton is a bit better than you're portraying him

    In the two seasons with Paul, Ayton is averaging 11 FGA/game (for context, Walker IV attempts about 10 shots a game). I think he has more room to grow on the offensive side tbh
    I don't really care about scoring from that position. It's cool, but not at a $40 million price tag when it comes with a non-shotblocker and a guy with suspect interest in competing. He's like an incredibly expensive Jahlil Okafor.

  10. #160
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    Not that it's a huge sample but he isn't dependent on Paul. His two seasons prior to Paul coming he posted solid numbers (16/10 on 59% and 18/11 on 55%). Only thing that has really gone up with Paul is his FG%. I think he will be fine with Murray setting him up

    But I'm also not convinced that paying your C max money when he isn't Jokic/Embiid is not a recipe for success. Just think Ayton is a bit better than you're portraying him

    In the two seasons with Paul, Ayton is averaging 11 FGA/game (for context, Walker IV attempts about 10 shots a game). I think he has more room to grow on the offensive side tbh
    I agree with this. In fact PHX had success when they were able to switch up their normal schemes and dump it to Ayton for him to do his thing down low. The highly disappointing thing is that he wasn't able to do that in the Playoffs and it seems like more of a "between the ears" type of thing than anything else. Thats a huge flag for me.

  11. #161
    Hope springs eternal. SAGirl's Avatar
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    I agree with this. In fact PHX had success when they were able to switch up their normal schemes and dump it to Ayton for him to do his thing down low. The highly disappointing thing is that he wasn't able to do that in the Playoffs and it seems like more of a "between the ears" type of thing than anything else. Thats a huge flag for me.
    He did it in the first round a lot when Booker wasnt playing because he was injured. They dont go to him consistently because Booker has to justify his existence in the team and CP3 is ball dominant.

  12. #162
    The Timeless One Leetonidas's Avatar
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    I don't really care about scoring from that position. It's cool, but not at a $40 million price tag when it comes with a non-shotblocker and a guy with suspect interest in competing. He's like an incredibly expensive Jahlil Okafor.
    You said his scoring was dependent on Chris Paul. I was merely pointing out that is not really true. Not saying i want him at the price tag either

  13. #163
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    You said his scoring was dependent on Chris Paul. I was merely pointing out that is not really true. Not saying i want him at the price tag either
    I totally follow what you're saying. I'd love a center who can score reliably. I just don't think Ayton's good at what you need him to be good at and his #1 draft pick price regime is awful. I don't think the Suns will miss him at all, if they can get a reasonable package.

  14. #164
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    It's all moot anyway since team "character" won't target anyone who isn't a choir boy, at these Ayton comments. From the pretending all max contracts are created equal, to spouting counting stats without context, to making outrageous comparisons, to pretending he's a product of Paul/Booker and subsequently acting like it's easy to get C's/players of his caliber.

  15. #165
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    Utah’s gotta be the favorites in a S&T for Rudy Gobert imo.
    Only if Ayton wants to play in Utah. They can't make him.

  16. #166
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    Williams is a vastly better defender. It's not even close. I don't even think Ayton's that good offensively -- he's dependent on Mr. Chris Paul. Once Paul leaves, both Ayton and Booker will decline to where they were before he was acquired. Ayton is way too expensive for not giving you what you actually need at the position.
    Ayton scored more the year before CP0 got there than in either of the years he was his PG.

  17. #167
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Ayton scored more the year before CP0 got there than in either of the years he was his PG.
    Cool. Still don't want him.

  18. #168
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    Ayton is a steep price, but he’s 23 and have the tools to be great. If any team can maximize his potentials, the Spurs have a very good chance who historically had two Hofer big men. It’s worth to offer him the max contract. Pair him with an ultra defensive PF like Eason and see how it will click. This is a swing over the fence move if it pans out and get Spurs back in contention.

  19. #169
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Cool. Still don't want him.
    I don't particularly want him either, just addressing the trope that he only scores because of CP0.

  20. #170
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    It's all moot anyway since team "character" won't target anyone who isn't a choir boy, at these Ayton comments. From the pretending all max contracts are created equal, to spouting counting stats without context, to making outrageous comparisons, to pretending he's a product of Paul/Booker and subsequently acting like it's easy to get C's/players of his caliber.
    It's not that Ayton's not a choir boy. By accounts all he does is play video games. It's that he's a quitter who only wants money and doesn't really care about winning or losing.

  21. #171
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    It's not that Ayton's not a choir boy. By accounts all he does is play video games. It's that he's a quitter who only wants money and doesn't really care about winning or losing.
    I know, but most young players, especially pedigreed ones, are more consumed with money and individual accolades than playing agenda free. Some never change.

    Again, if this were a full scale re-build, of course I wouldn't bother. Given the needle they're trying to thread, this is a rare opportunity and they should be looking to pounce.

  22. #172
    Don't stop believin' Dex's Avatar
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    Only if Ayton wants to play in Utah. They can't make him.
    I also think Utah will prioritize Gobert over Mitc , and the writing seems to be on the wall that one or the other has to go.

    Mitc is apparently "discontent" with Snyder leaving, so he always has his built-in excuse. And even though Gobert is overpaid, his defense is damn near impossible to replace whereas Utah can easily find another high usage scoring guard.

    The real question is...if Mitc leaves, do they also unload Gobert and just blow it up?

  23. #173
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    Wrong. The point of cap space is so you have flexibility and again, a market/organization like this is going to have difficulty signing high end free agents at the best of times. Ayton is better than Poeltl now (way more versatile finisher, defender and defensive rebounder) and 3 years younger. Barring something catastrophic, he'll also have better resale value.
    You're already assuming the Spurs are going to be able to sign Ayton, so going back to the well of "they're not a free-agent destination" isn't going to fly. Ayton isn't going to have resale value if he's on a bad contract, just like any of the other bigs who signed huge deals assuming they were worth it but weren't did. Massively overpaid centers are basically the worst contracts you can have, because everyone already knows they aren't usually worth it. That's why he's on the block at all. You're talking about the fourth- or fifth-best player on the Suns getting paid like he's the second-best player on a legit playoff team. That's not him.

    Tampering goes hand in hand with professional sports. Obviously, you can't leave an electronic trail from the key decision makers, but there's ways around that.
    You keep running into the things I already said assuming they are new arguments. No, you can't do that. You're not going to nudge-nudge/wink-wink your way past such an obvious tampering situation.

    Not many individuals are taking this team from where they stand to the playoffs. The point would be to have a better core piece, one with an All-Star ceiling.
    Ayton's much closer to a JAG than he is to a core piece. The Spurs will have to go for pieces for sure, but they don't have to chase any high pick like love-sick poodles just to satisfy that urge. They need to opportunistic, not lame and impulsive.

    They'd have up to the trade deadline to sort it out though. They're not getting strong armed into throwing a quality asset in the garbage due to this.
    Assuming teams have the ability to clear huge cap space for Phoenix during the season is dicey. There will be much less cap space to go around. Add to that that going into the season with a guy you don't want but who has no incentive to play hard probably won't help his trade market. It would be like a worse version of the Collins situation. Also, the Suns matching an offer sheet prevents them from trading Ayton without his consent for a year, and they wouldn't be trade him to offering team for a year at all. So there's no playing games with SA, matching the deal and them unloading Ayton to the Spurs at the deadline. There's also no matching Ayton and then dumping him on Detroit or wherever. You continue to overestimate the leverage Phoenix has if they intend to keep him.

  24. #174
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    I also think Utah will prioritize Gobert over Mitc , and the writing seems to be on the wall that one or the other has to go.

    Mitc is apparently "discontent" with Snyder leaving, so he always has his built-in excuse. And even though Gobert is overpaid, his defense is damn near impossible to replace whereas Utah can easily find another high usage scoring guard.

    The real question is...if Mitc leaves, do they also unload Gobert and just blow it up?
    FFS should we prepare for a Mitc for Westbrook Laker Scam?

  25. #175
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    You're already assuming the Spurs are going to be able to sign Ayton, so going back to the well of "they're not a free-agent destination" isn't going to fly. Ayton isn't going to have resale value if he's on a bad contract, just like any of the other bigs who signed huge deals assuming they were worth it but weren't did. Massively overpaid centers are basically the worst contracts you can have, because everyone already knows they aren't usually worth it. That's why he's on the block at all. You're talking about the fourth- or fifth-best player on the Suns getting paid like he's the second-best player on a legit playoff team. That's not him.
    No, I'm saying they should have a legit chance, which is unusual for players of or above his caliber.

    I suspect a number of teams would give Ayton his current max.

    He's "on the block" because Sarver is notoriously cheap.

    Ayton is clearly their third best player (teams likely favoring Bridges and maybe Johnson because of position is not the same thing) and in the right context he's capable of being the second best player on a legit playoff team.


    You keep running into the things I already said assuming they are new arguments. No, you can't do that. You're not going to nudge-nudge/wink-wink your way past such an obvious tampering situation.
    You absolutely can and you'd be naive to think teams aren't doing so.


    Ayton's much closer to a JAG than he is to a core piece. The Spurs will have to go for pieces for sure, but they don't have to chase any high pick like love-sick poodles just to satisfy that urge. They need to opportunistic, not lame and impulsive.
    He's got a good argument for 6th best C in the league and because he's more versatile, he's arguably better equipped for the playoffs than Gobert. You act like he's Bagley III.

    Assuming teams have the ability to clear huge cap space for Phoenix during the season is dicey. There will be much less cap space to go around. Add to that that going into the season with a guy you don't want but who has no incentive to play hard probably won't help his trade market. It would be like a worse version of the Collins situation. Also, the Suns matching an offer sheet prevents them from trading Ayton without his consent for a year, and they wouldn't be trade him to offering team for a year at all. So there's no playing games with SA, matching the deal and them unloading Ayton to the Spurs at the deadline. There's also no matching Ayton and then dumping him on Detroit or wherever. You continue to overestimate the leverage Phoenix has if they intend to keep him.
    I said they had time.

    I realize that, but it doesn't have to be him.

    Maybe, but if you think a young player of this magnitude and pedigree is going to be virtually handed away, you're just as delusional as thinking he's merely some run of the mill rim runner.

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