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  1. #1551
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    I have to wonder if the Nets wouldn't prefer a TE to those 2 picks....
    WB + 2 unprotected 1sts to SA
    TE to Brooklyn
    Kyrie + Doug to LA
    I don't think so because they're already out so many 1sts to the Rockets from the Harden trade and if the Lakers don't want Harris, I can't see them wanting McDermott.

  2. #1552
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Why? So that all of their players really will be like some are saying Keldon is? Guys will ask out if the team is horrible, and if they're constantly being dealt, then the investment in the Spurs in particular really will go away. What about the Spurs without a winning culture is any different from the Kings or Magic?

    If we're hoping for things, it should be that the rumored projections for Primo are correct and he's a franchise player. It makes more sense to hope the Spurs already have their star rather than wanting him to suck and drag the team down so that they have a chance to win a chance to pick a guy who has a chance at being a franchise player. I know I'd rather get some evidence that the Spurs might have picked up a couple of potential All-Stars rather than worrying about if some guy not on the team is going to be there when they pick. Later in the year if a loss or few can get a better lottery slot, I can understand. But if they're back in the race for the play-in again because the guys they picked are playing great, it doesn't make sense to sabotage that. At a certain point, the returns on your investments get so high that you can't keep denying your have good stocks.
    If Primo is a franchise player then trading Murray made 0 sense. Brian Wright said they want to be back in contention very soon and the best way for them to do it is Wembenyama. If they get the 9th pick again than that's going to do more damage to the young guys on the team than one year of tanking. Because pretty soon Keldon gonna be on the trading block, with Vassell being next. They should try their best to lose every game, sabotage the team if you have to. Because if you get the #1 year pick in this years draft the tank is over. No reason to tank anymore after that.

  3. #1553
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    I don't think so because they're already out so many 1sts to the Rockets from the Harden trade and if the Lakers don't want Harris, I can't see them wanting McDermott.
    I don't think the Lakers have any leverage though... if they don't deal they waste another year of Lebron and are stuck with WB... if the Nets don't deal they're stuck with Kyrie but they don't have the same pressure to look like they're competing for a championship because KD won't be there... Doug could help LA with his shooting too (and doesn't he have a cheaper and shorter contract than Harris and isn't coming off injury?)

    I also think Brooklyn might be able to use that TE...and if they still wanted WB the player they can get him cheap after we buy him out.

  4. #1554
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    I have a feeling a lot of GMs were annoyed with the Hawks for paying as much as they did for Murray. I imagine Gobert's deal was so high in large part because Ainge was comparing Minny's offer to Murray's haul. If Murray go what he got, and Gobert got what he got, it's basically impossible for a team that isn't tanking to offer enough value for Durant. If some fans get their wish, and the NBA does "crack down" on the players during the negotiations for the next CBA, we might see the league move away from a trading league toward a signing/drafting league.
    Not as annoyed as they are with Presti for paying 5/$87.5M for Lu Dort.

  5. #1555
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    If Primo is a franchise player then trading Murray made 0 sense. Brian Wright said they want to be back in contention very soon and the best way for them to do it is Wembenyama. If they get the 9th pick again than that's going to do more damage to the young guys on the team than one year of tanking. Because pretty soon Keldon gonna be on the trading block, with Vassell being next. They should try their best to lose every game, sabotage the team if you have to. Because if you get the #1 year pick in this years draft the tank is over. No reason to tank anymore after that.
    14% bro.

  6. #1556
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    I know. Just pray Adam Silver does us a solid. There's nothing else we can do

  7. #1557
    El rojo y los Spurs!!! Ariel's Avatar
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    In summary:
    TANKING
    Chances at Wembanyama: 14%
    Chances at Scoot Henderson: 13.4%
    Chances at adding significant talent: 100%
    NOT TANKING
    Chances at us already having a franchise player in Primo: 0%

    We're already in the middle of the river. There's no going back. Tank along.

  8. #1558
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    I know. Just pray Adam Silver does us a solid. There's nothing else we can do
    Silver would rather shiv us in an alley than help us out, like his Palpatine before him.

    So I'll agree with you. The trade of Murray was way premature and basically poured a ton of sugar into the gas tank. Vassell and Keldon will play with one foot out the door. And all for a chance of rolling a 1 on an eight sided die. If we are top-4 losers in the league. Fail and instill a losing culture and no fanbase for a decade.

  9. #1559
    OH YOU LIKE IT!!! slick'81's Avatar
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    In summary:
    TANKING
    Chances at Wembanyama: 14%
    Chances at Scoot Henderson: 13.4%
    Chances at adding significant talent: 100%
    NOT TANKING
    Chances at us already having a franchise player in Primo: 0%

    We're already in the middle of the river. There's no going back. Tank along.
    exactly! Its now or neva

  10. #1560
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    With Durant locked into a 4 year deal, it will be interesting what he does if Nets can't get the value they want and decide to hold off on a trade. I mean, will Durant show up and play or become toxic? I don't know that his rep can handle pretending to be injured or just sitting out games to take away the Net's leverage. People are so down on him anyway that I don't know what they will say by first, him wanting to leave in the first place, and two, playing games to force his way out.

  11. #1561
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    I don't think the Lakers have any leverage though... if they don't deal they waste another year of Lebron and are stuck with WB... if the Nets don't deal they're stuck with Kyrie but they don't have the same pressure to look like they're competing for a championship because KD won't be there... Doug could help LA with his shooting too (and doesn't he have a cheaper and shorter contract than Harris and isn't coming off injury?)

    I also think Brooklyn might be able to use that TE...and if they still wanted WB the player they can get him cheap after we buy him out.
    Lakers better hope Durant doesn’t end up in New Orleans. That deal would likely include Lakers picks. Nets would not want to do anything to improve time.

  12. #1562
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    Silver would rather shiv us in an alley than help us out, like his Palpatine before him.

    So I'll agree with you. The trade of Murray was way premature and basically poured a ton of sugar into the gas tank. Vassell and Keldon will play with one foot out the door. And all for a chance of rolling a 1 on an eight sided die. If we are top-4 losers in the league. Fail and instill a losing culture and no fanbase for a decade.
    STFU and.get in the car, dude. We got to do.

  13. #1563
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    STFU and.get in the car, dude. We got to do.
    Oh yeah? What you got to do? Lose a lot, and see players disappear? What exactly do you think is going on here? This rainbows pouring out of your butt stuff is embarrassing.

  14. #1564
    Peace! bluebellmaniac's Avatar
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    Oh yeah? What you got to do? Lose a lot, and see players disappear? What exactly do you think is going on here? This rainbows pouring out of your butt stuff is embarrassing.
    Lol!

  15. #1565
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    Last season was not pretty either, I don't see them jumping the ship, can only see more fans joining tank squad for the coming season.
    Getting a top tier talent no matter who is gonna change the whole scenario for a team that's good at drafting talents.

  16. #1566
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    Thats what I've been trying to say over and over its a thin line and if they don't get it right quickly you end up in rebuilding purgatory especially when you can't draw big free agents or then hold on to your own. That's why I understand the DJ trade but he basically said he would stay if not for a complete rebuild see with DJ you sign Aston then build around them. You have to have some type of small core but to start from scratch its high risk high reward.because as you said which is spot on if things don't go our way then Keldon comes up and oops we need to trade him for same reasons as DJ because we really haven't progressed much oh then Vassell and primo so it becomes the minor league affiliate for the rest of the league to pick at. That's what has me nervous. Also continuous adding of young players then they split time one is better one month than the other then vice versa just hinders development. To me they have this season and next draft to be successful or that purgatory becomes that much closer.

  17. #1567
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    If Primo is a franchise player then trading Murray made 0 sense.

    ...

    If they get the 9th pick again than that's going to do more damage to the young guys on the team than one year of tanking. Because pretty soon Keldon gonna be on the trading block, with Vassell being next.
    It makes perfect sense. to trade Murray even if Primo is going to be a star. In my opinion, calling the Spurs a treadmill team is a bad take that can only be rationally explained by being a person who hasn't watched the team. The Spurs in this scenario would have had basically the same record four years in a row despite collecting god knows how many firsts and young prospects due to the sheer growth of their talent. That's amazing. If that happens, they're in a much better long-term compe ive position than they would've been had they kept Murray. It's possible that Primo might not've become a star with Murray on the team in the same way Murray took advantage of DeRozan and then White being traded. But even assuming he did, the Spurs after this trade and the likely Poeltl follow-up are in a way better compe ive position than they would've been.

    Had the Spurs kept Murray, their second-best player would've been a fringe All-Star getting ready to sign a max contract, and rather than having the ninth-overall pick, they'd be a lower-seed playoff team and pick around 20. Not only is that pick worse, but the rest of their future firsts are jeopardized by the assumption that the Primo/Murray duo would convey picks in the 20s for years to come. The way some fans see the Hawks picks the Spurs got, some of the oppose FOs would look at the Spurs' pick. So when it came time to make the trades they'd need to to ignite their core, they'd have much less buying power. Even to get a finishing piece, they'd run to risk at giving up what Minny did. Dicey to say the least.

    Compare that to the scenario where Primo stars. First, Johnson and Vassell wouldn't be traded off. The Spurs are hoping to draft a franchise player, which is apparently what some in the FO Primo has the potential to be. That's multiple tiers above where they were said to have placed Murray. They dealt DeJounte because they didn't think he was a franchise player, If they did, they would have kept him and not entertained tanking. If Primo shows himself to be such a franchise player next year that he drags the roster to respectability, PATFO is going to view complimentary pieces like Vassell and Johnson as more important than they seem them now. It's possible they could get traded, but it would be in service of a win-now move for a second star. It would be for draft picks. They'd have their franchise player already. They'd have what you think they must tank for Wembenyama to get. I'm sure even in this scenario, they'd love to be able to draft him. But I'm confident they'd view Primo living up to their wildest dreams as the move important and validating aspect. They'd have a decent pick and literally others 10 first-rounders to play with. Having a franchise player in the hand is worth that much. Even if you miss out on the Lebron, you can still win a le with Wade.

    Because if you get the #1 year pick in this years draft the tank is over. No reason to tank anymore after that.
    You don't become as bad as you want them to and then just stop. You're talking about trading away anyone who looks good and rigging everyone's development if they show a sign of being "too good". You don't go from that to winning immediately. Even if the guy is a phenom like Yao or Garnett and makes a horrible team into a respectable playoff team, it's still due mostly to that player's sheer force of will trying to buoy a terrible roster only in the modern day of player empowerment and with guys not feeling pressured to risk their bodies for situations they don't want to be in.

    Also, it's not like if they don't get the first-overall pick they'll all of the sudden get back the year of wasted development they pissed away for a literal dice roll.

  18. #1568
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    Did they trade DJ because he would just leave eventually? Or because they’ve really seen something special on Primo that it’s best to remove DJ to make way for Primo? If it’s the latter, and I’m so confident with how they marked Kawhi, that’s freaking exciting, knowing that they see this kid as a future superstar. And they’re not just saying it. I totally trust the Spurs in developing players. To let go of a fringe star because there is one that’s better! Damn I’m so stoked for Primo!

  19. #1569
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    Did they trade DJ because he would just leave eventually? Or because they’ve really seen something special on Primo that it’s best to remove DJ to make way for Primo? If it’s the latter, and I’m so confident with how they marked Kawhi, that’s freaking exciting, knowing that they see this kid as a future superstar. And they’re not just saying it. I totally trust the Spurs in developing players. To let go of a fringe star because there is one that’s better! Damn I’m so stoked for Primo!
    Like timvp said. Spurs probably still let go of Murray at that asking price. There was obviously some motivation tion to move on. One of them is that the Spurs couldn't extend him at his value. They would require for him to become a free agent. In which obviously you risk losing him. That potentially 8 years and no playoff series win. Not a good way to keep him and at a discount on top of that.

  20. #1570
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    Like timvp said. Spurs probably still let go of Murray at that asking price. There was obviously some motivation tion to move on. One of them is that the Spurs couldn't extend him at his value. They would require for him to become a free agent. In which obviously you risk losing him. That potentially 8 years and no playoff series win. Not a good way to keep him and at a discount on top of that.
    So you think it’s the former? Which I respectfully get it and I know that played a big role. Just to me it’s more of Primo eclipsing DJ eventually and DJ is on the way. Like sending White out for Vassell. Vassell will be better than White at 2.

  21. #1571
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    It makes perfect sense. to trade Murray even if Primo is going to be a star. In my opinion, calling the Spurs a treadmill team is a bad take that can only be rationally explained by being a person who hasn't watched the team. The Spurs in this scenario would have had basically the same record four years in a row despite collecting god knows how many firsts and young prospects due to the sheer growth of their talent. That's amazing. If that happens, they're in a much better long-term compe ive position than they would've been had they kept Murray. It's possible that Primo might not've become a star with Murray on the team in the same way Murray took advantage of DeRozan and then White being traded. But even assuming he did, the Spurs after this trade and the likely Poeltl follow-up are in a way better compe ive position than they would've been.

    Had the Spurs kept Murray, their second-best player would've been a fringe All-Star getting ready to sign a max contract, and rather than having the ninth-overall pick, they'd be a lower-seed playoff team and pick around 20. Not only is that pick worse, but the rest of their future firsts are jeopardized by the assumption that the Primo/Murray duo would convey picks in the 20s for years to come. The way some fans see the Hawks picks the Spurs got, some of the oppose FOs would look at the Spurs' pick. So when it came time to make the trades they'd need to to ignite their core, they'd have much less buying power. Even to get a finishing piece, they'd run to risk at giving up what Minny did. Dicey to say the least.

    Compare that to the scenario where Primo stars. First, Johnson and Vassell wouldn't be traded off. The Spurs are hoping to draft a franchise player, which is apparently what some in the FO Primo has the potential to be. That's multiple tiers above where they were said to have placed Murray. They dealt DeJounte because they didn't think he was a franchise player, If they did, they would have kept him and not entertained tanking. If Primo shows himself to be such a franchise player next year that he drags the roster to respectability, PATFO is going to view complimentary pieces like Vassell and Johnson as more important than they seem them now. It's possible they could get traded, but it would be in service of a win-now move for a second star. It would be for draft picks. They'd have their franchise player already. They'd have what you think they must tank for Wembenyama to get. I'm sure even in this scenario, they'd love to be able to draft him. But I'm confident they'd view Primo living up to their wildest dreams as the move important and validating aspect. They'd have a decent pick and literally others 10 first-rounders to play with. Having a franchise player in the hand is worth that much. Even if you miss out on the Lebron, you can still win a le with Wade.



    You don't become as bad as you want them to and then just stop. You're talking about trading away anyone who looks good and rigging everyone's development if they show a sign of being "too good". You don't go from that to winning immediately. Even if the guy is a phenom like Yao or Garnett and makes a horrible team into a respectable playoff team, it's still due mostly to that player's sheer force of will trying to buoy a terrible roster only in the modern day of player empowerment and with guys not feeling pressured to risk their bodies for situations they don't want to be in.

    Also, it's not like if they don't get the first-overall pick they'll all of the sudden get back the year of wasted development they pissed away for a literal dice roll.
    I never said they should trade away every player who looks good. Get your facts straight. Just trade away Poeltl and J-Rich and they'll lose a lot. Also there's no year of lost development if you just gut the team and Pop coaches them to play the right way. That's a stupid statement. They not pissing away anything. If they get a Wembenyama he will need about 3 more years, but at least the Spurs would know what they have and can get focused on climbing up the standings year by year.

    Yeah it's nice to have those assets, but you don't have a clue where these picks will land or if Primo is a franchise player, so pump the breaks. If Primo is anything like Luka Doncic pairing him with an All-Star guard would make sense. Now pushing back the timeline to get assets makes sense too, but they won't be anything close to the 9th seed this season and I assume to see more trades at the deadline if we don't make them now.

  22. #1572
    Veteran tbdog's Avatar
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    So you think it’s the former? Which I respectfully get it and I know that played a big role. Just to me it’s more of Primo eclipsing DJ eventually and DJ is on the way. Like sending White out for Vassell. Vassell will be better than White at 2.
    I think it could be a combination of things. But I believe money was a bigger reason. I also think Murray isn't in the same timeline as the youngsters. If they were 2 years ahead, we would be winning. Rookie extensions would be signed. Maxing Murray would hurt less. Things like that. I don't think it's all about primo. And I'm not sure he can play the point full time. The few times he did, the offense went to . And he didn't play point in the play in. Also it's unlike spurs development to force a rook into something they not ready. They don't even call plays for them. Leonard didn't get plays call for him until 2015. In 2014, the finals mvp barely got his number called. He was just asked score within the system.

  23. #1573
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    I think it could be a combination of things. But I believe money was a bigger reason. I also think Murray isn't in the same timeline as the youngsters. If they were 2 years ahead, we would be winning. Rookie extensions would be signed. Maxing Murray would hurt less. Things like that. I don't think it's all about primo. And I'm not sure he can play the point full time. The few times he did, the offense went to . And he didn't play point in the play in. Also it's unlike spurs development to force a rook into something they not ready. They don't even call plays for them. Leonard didn't get plays call for him until 2015. In 2014, the finals mvp barely got his number called. He was just asked score within the system.
    I get that. To me it’s letting Primo clean those acts. Normally if you’re winning, like with the Big 3, you don’t give the Rookie the rock. But they’re not. Allowing Kobe to hit those 3’s was because Jackson (boy I hate Phil but I had to use that scenario). Pop sees Primo with great vision on the court, advanced for his age. Pop is making Primo despite the mistakes, and specially from the mistakes to learn from. Spurs were not winning games, but competing until finally they win more games. Primo was turning them over, but the court vision was there, just a matter of making better executions.

  24. #1574
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    I think it could be a combination of things. But I believe money was a bigger reason. I also think Murray isn't in the same timeline as the youngsters. If they were 2 years ahead, we would be winning. Rookie extensions would be signed. Maxing Murray would hurt less. Things like that. I don't think it's all about primo. And I'm not sure he can play the point full time. The few times he did, the offense went to . And he didn't play point in the play in. Also it's unlike spurs development to force a rook into something they not ready. They don't even call plays for them. Leonard didn't get plays call for him until 2015. In 2014, the finals mvp barely got his number called. He was just asked score within the system.
    I get that. To me it’s letting Primo clean those acts. Normally if you’re winning, like with the Big 3, you don’t give the Rookie the rock. But they’re not. Allowing Kobe to hit those 3’s was because Jackson believed Kobe had it in him (boy I hate Phil but I had to use that scenario). Pop sees Primo with great vision on the court, advanced for his age. Pop is making Primo despite the mistakes, and specially from the mistakes to learn from. Spurs were not winning games, but competing until finally they win more games. Primo was turning them over, but the court vision was there, just a matter of making better executions.

  25. #1575
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I never said they should trade away every player who looks good. Get your facts straight. Just trade away Poeltl and J-Rich and they'll lose a lot. Also there's no year of lost development if you just gut the team and Pop coaches them to play the right way. That's a stupid statement. They not pissing away anything. If they get a Wembenyama he will need about 3 more years, but at least the Spurs would know what they have and can get focused on climbing up the standings year by year.

    Yeah it's nice to have those assets, but you don't have a clue where these picks will land or if Primo is a franchise player, so pump the breaks. If Primo is anything like Luka Doncic pairing him with an All-Star guard would make sense. Now pushing back the timeline to get assets makes sense too, but they won't be anything close to the 9th seed this season and I assume to see more trades at the deadline if we don't make them now.
    You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. We aren't talking about whether the Spurs WILL win 30ish games despite trading Richardson and Poeltl (and Murray) or if Primo WILL be a franchise player.. We are talking about whether a scenario where Primo does show himself to be a franchise player and leads the young core to 30ish wins is a bad thing. I don't think it is, but you do. You said that's one of the worst-case scenarios and that the team would be on a treadmill and lead to guys like Vassell and Johnson getting traded. I think it would be a major sign of progress and much more likely to secure guys like Johnson and Vassell on the team long term. That's where our debate is, not on whether the Spurs should trade away their older players or whether we expect the Spurs to be bad this year. We don't disagree on those things. We disagree on why the Spurs should do that. You want them to do it to be horrible, specifically losing the games is the goal. I want them to do it to get assets and let the young guys grow. If they grow and win 30ish games, that's fine for me. It's not for you.

    But yeah, I was just discussing in another thread about how Jones is likely to start the season at PG because Primo may not be ready. I'm not actually counting on him to be a franchise player -- and certainly not as a PG. I would consider him doing that the best-case scenario, especially if the Spurs can find the guy to compliment him during the draft. But I don't think we see where the team actually is right now differently.

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