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  1. #151
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    To put it into perspective, the Spurs might operate as an over-the-cap team now that they made all their first-round picks and guaranteed Collins. That's how little cap space they have. They can still create a max slot if they need it, but I don't think they'd want to do that if trading is also an option.

  2. #152
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    To put it into perspective, the Spurs might operate as an over-the-cap team now that they made all their first-round picks and guaranteed Collins. That's how little cap space they have. They can still create a max slot if they need it, but I don't think they'd want to do that if trading is also an option.
    Could you explain how that’s even possible? Is that because they haven’t formally renounced Aminu, Sato, Dragic?

  3. #153
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    Yup. NY is desperate for a PG and has 3 firsts + all of their own, and they're going to suck long term. If Brunson stays with the Mavs, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they throw everything but the kitchen sink at us for Dejounte. If they throw 5 lightly protected firsts, or 4 + a few swaps, then it may be something to consider.
    From NY, I want three of their own FRPs, at least one unprotected, Detroit's '23 FRP, and Obi Toppin.

  4. #154
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    From NY, I want three of their own FRPs, at least one unprotected, Detroit's '23 FRP, and Obi Toppin.
    Obi Toppin is dead weight, all he can do is dunk in transition. I'd ask for as many picks as possible and that's it. The Knick's roster is utter garbage (other than RJ Barret, and certainly he's not going anywhere).

  5. #155
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    So this is going to initially sound crazy, but:

    Murray and Richardson to PHX for Paul, Cam Johnson, Shamet and two firsts

    Then (technically simultaneously):

    Paul and Poeltl to LAL for Westbrook and two firsts.

    The Spurs get four first and Cam Johnson for their two best players and taking $10 Million in 2023-2024 salary.
    Phoenix gets to re-sign Ayton and have their young core for cheaper
    LAL gets to basically get the banana boat together

    Then in the off-season, use the bit of cap space that remains to sign Jalen Smith to something like $42M/3 with only the first year guaranteed.

    I initially thought the Spurs should then either waive/buyout Westbrook or send him home until a trade could be found. But then I realized that the resulting team would actually fit him.

    Westbrook, Jones, Wesley
    Vassell, Primo, Branham
    Johnson, McDermott, Langford
    Johnson, Sochan, Bates-Diop
    Smith, Collins, Landale

    Two-way: Wieskamp, Barrlow

    That's actually a fast unit with excellent spacing and defensive ability. The Johnsons and Sochan would make for one of the best young forward rotations I can ever think of. Smith and Collins can both shoot from outside. I think that roster would actually play to Westbrook's strengths. I don't think Westbrook would have another MVP-caliber season, and I'm not sure that I'd want him to dominate the ball enough to find out. But he might perform well enough to get a team to give up value for him. I can't think of a starting PG that would be a better stop-gap. It's sad, because DeJounte himself might be perfect for that lineup. Maybe the Spurs could get Cam for Poeltl if Ayton walks? Johnson, Johnson and Jones are notable free agents after next season, but the Spurs might be able to get all or two of them on reasonable extensions this summer to allow them to go into the next off-season with cap space.

  6. #156
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Could you explain how that’s even possible? Is that because they haven’t formally renounced Aminu, Sato, Dragic?
    It's because the MLE and LLE both count against the cap until a team is so far below it that they can't make up the different. Lonnie's hold is around $14 Million. The exceptions combine to about $15 Million. Then Wieskamp, Ca and the two-ways have their cap holds. That puts the team like $10 Million over the cap.

  7. #157
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    ^ Id rather just get the 4 FRP from the Knicks in a deal for Murray. Spurs can then continue to shop Jak and Richardson separately for additional trade capital.

  8. #158
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    It's because the MLE and LLE both count against the cap until a team is so far below it that they can't make up the different. Lonnie's hold is around $14 Million. The exceptions combine to about $15 Million. Then Wieskamp, Ca and the two-ways have their cap holds. That puts the team like $10 Million over the cap.
    Ok thanks. Good to know but seems academic in the end, no? They can renounce Lonnie, and waive/renounce Romeo, KBD, and Jock if further flexibility is required.

  9. #159
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    ^ Id rather just get the 4 FRP from the Knicks in a deal for Murray. Spurs can then continue to shop Jak and Richardson separately for additional trade capital.
    Cam Johnson is not to be slept on. Dude would be a perfect fit with Keldon and Sochan. Imagine forward going from a weak position to 100-percent taken care of for the next four years.

    Also, the Knicks have a bunch of truly awful picks clumped together. They're one of the worst teams to trade with because they're going to keep trying to shovel on the plate and pretend it's food.

  10. #160
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    So this is going to initially sound crazy, but:

    Murray and Richardson to PHX for Paul, Cam Johnson, Shamet and two firsts

    Then (technically simultaneously):

    Paul and Poeltl to LAL for Westbrook and two firsts.

    The Spurs get four first and Cam Johnson for their two best players and taking $10 Million in 2023-2024 salary.
    Phoenix gets to re-sign Ayton and have their young core for cheaper
    LAL gets to basically get the banana boat together

    Then in the off-season, use the bit of cap space that remains to sign Jalen Smith to something like $42M/3 with only the first year guaranteed.

    I initially thought the Spurs should then either waive/buyout Westbrook or send him home until a trade could be found. But then I realized that the resulting team would actually fit him.

    Westbrook, Jones, Wesley
    Vassell, Primo, Branham
    Johnson, McDermott, Langford
    Johnson, Sochan, Bates-Diop
    Smith, Collins, Landale

    Two-way: Wieskamp, Barrlow

    That's actually a fast unit with excellent spacing and defensive ability. The Johnsons and Sochan would make for one of the best young forward rotations I can ever think of. Smith and Collins can both shoot from outside. I think that roster would actually play to Westbrook's strengths. I don't think Westbrook would have another MVP-caliber season, and I'm not sure that I'd want him to dominate the ball enough to find out. But he might perform well enough to get a team to give up value for him. I can't think of a starting PG that would be a better stop-gap. It's sad, because DeJounte himself might be perfect for that lineup. Maybe the Spurs could get Cam for Poeltl if Ayton walks? Johnson, Johnson and Jones are notable free agents after next season, but the Spurs might be able to get all or two of them on reasonable extensions this summer to allow them to go into the next off-season with cap space.
    I don't want to ever see Westbrook in a spurs uniform, not even for 10 unprotected picks.

  11. #161
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    From NY, I want three of their own FRPs, at least one unprotected, Detroit's '23 FRP, and Obi Toppin.
    Even Durant isn't give you that kind of package

  12. #162
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Ok thanks. Good to know but seems academic in the end, no? They can renounce Lonnie, and waive/renounce Romeo, KBD, and Jock if further flexibility is required.
    If the Spurs renounced everyone and waived all of their non-guarantees besides Jones, they could get a slot for the lowest tier of max contract. But that's only if they stretch Langford. It's possible but painful, and I expect the team to not initially go into the summer expecting to use cap space unless they want a free-agent for more than the MLE and/or someone wants to pay them for the space.

  13. #163
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    ^ Id rather just get the 4 FRP from the Knicks in a deal for Murray. Spurs can then continue to shop Jak and Richardson separately for additional trade capital.


  14. #164
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    Even Durant isn't give you that kind of package
    The Detroit pick is heavily protected and no one in NY is wild about Toppin. He's been mostly a bad player for two years.

  15. #165
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    Obi Toppin is dead weight, all he can do is dunk in transition. I'd ask for as many picks as possible and that's it. The Knick's roster is utter garbage (other than RJ Barret, and certainly he's not going anywhere).

    I'm not a big fan of Toppin either. But NY's picks also don't project super well. You'd expect those picks to between 6 seed and play in with Murray on their roster. We'd have to get four FRPs and a swap or SRPs or Toppin.

  16. #166
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    Cam Johnson is not to be slept on. Dude would be a perfect fit with Keldon and Sochan. Imagine forward going from a weak position to 100-percent taken care of for the next four years.

    Also, the Knicks have a bunch of truly awful picks clumped together. They're one of the worst teams to trade with because they're going to keep trying to shovel on the plate and pretend it's food.
    Good call on Cam Johnson, and I do think for the Suns they’re asking internally, “do we pay Ayton or Johnson?” In fact, I like the idea of offering the Ayton sheet just to mess with PHX on this, lol.

    I see the the Knicks picks situation differently:

    - their natural 2023 FRP has value if unprotected. If they miss the playoffs again it’s another lotto ticket.

    - the Dallas 2023 FRP, which is the best of the 3 they traded for IMO, is only top 10 protected. Who knows what happens with Brunson (btw this is the pick id demand if they want us to eat Nerlens to create cap space for Brunson)

    - Natural Knicks picks after 2025 could be valuable if he leaves or RJ busts or DJM leaves for free agency after 2024.

    - I’d also ask to the two other protected non-natural 2023 picks.

  17. #167
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    My math using spotrac, keeping Tre and Jock, renouncing everyone else puts them at $90,935,863 and 14 players, which should be enough for Ayton if signed to an RFA deal at 25% of $122m.

    Where is my math wrong?

  18. #168
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    If the Spurs renounced everyone and waived all of their non-guarantees besides Jones, they could get a slot for the lowest tier of max contract. But that's only if they stretch Langford. It's possible but painful, and I expect the team to not initially go into the summer expecting to use cap space unless they want a free-agent for more than the MLE and/or someone wants to pay them for the space.
    Thanks for explaining the finer points.

    I sure hope they have a plan to use that capspace, even as a dumping ground! Would be very disappointing otherwise.

  19. #169
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    My math using spotrac, keeping Tre and Jock, renouncing everyone else puts them at $90,935,863 and 14 players, which should be enough for Ayton if signed to an RFA deal at 25% of $122m.

    Where is my math wrong?
    That’s my reading too, but perhaps I’m missing something.

    But bottom line: if they really want to offer Ayton a sheet starting at his $30.5M max, it’s the old “if there is a will there is a way” adage.

  20. #170
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    That’s my reading too, but perhaps I’m missing something.

    But bottom line: if they really want to offer Ayton a sheet starting at his $30.5M max, it’s the old “if there is a will there is a way” adage.
    Right, I don't get it. My math is even with keeping Jock who is a fringe NBA player. Though I suppose if the Spurs did sign Ayton as an unmatched RFA or in a sign and trade that Poeltl would be gone, and in that scenario there'd be a spot for Jock as emergency bench player

  21. #171
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    My math using spotrac, keeping Tre and Jock, renouncing everyone else puts them at $90,935,863 and 14 players, which should be enough for Ayton if signed to an RFA deal at 25% of $122m.

    Where is my math wrong?
    I don't know why it's slightly different, but I see Deeks for some reason hasn't removed Samanic from the Spurs' salaries even though he's been gone for way before he made most of his updates. That does allow them to keep Langford. I'd question keeping Jock over KBD if the team is going to have both Ayton and Poeltl, but that's neither here nor there.

  22. #172
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    ^ on Jock and KBD, if Spurs are interested in Ayton of real, I’d love to see them first package those guys with Romeo to NYK for Nerlens and the Dallas 2023 FRP. Knicks just waive/renounce those guys for capspace.

    That Dallas pick can go in an Ayton S&T.

  23. #173
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    So this is going to initially sound crazy, but:

    Murray and Richardson to PHX for Paul, Cam Johnson, Shamet and two firsts

    Then (technically simultaneously):

    Paul and Poeltl to LAL for Westbrook and two firsts.

    The Spurs get four first and Cam Johnson for their two best players and taking $10 Million in 2023-2024 salary.
    Phoenix gets to re-sign Ayton and have their young core for cheaper
    LAL gets to basically get the banana boat together

    Then in the off-season, use the bit of cap space that remains to sign Jalen Smith to something like $42M/3 with only the first year guaranteed.

    I initially thought the Spurs should then either waive/buyout Westbrook or send him home until a trade could be found. But then I realized that the resulting team would actually fit him.

    Westbrook, Jones, Wesley
    Vassell, Primo, Branham
    Johnson, McDermott, Langford
    Johnson, Sochan, Bates-Diop
    Smith, Collins, Landale

    Two-way: Wieskamp, Barrlow

    That's actually a fast unit with excellent spacing and defensive ability. The Johnsons and Sochan would make for one of the best young forward rotations I can ever think of. Smith and Collins can both shoot from outside. I think that roster would actually play to Westbrook's strengths. I don't think Westbrook would have another MVP-caliber season, and I'm not sure that I'd want him to dominate the ball enough to find out. But he might perform well enough to get a team to give up value for him. I can't think of a starting PG that would be a better stop-gap. It's sad, because DeJounte himself might be perfect for that lineup. Maybe the Spurs could get Cam for Poeltl if Ayton walks? Johnson, Johnson and Jones are notable free agents after next season, but the Spurs might be able to get all or two of them on reasonable extensions this summer to allow them to go into the next off-season with cap space.
    I like the 2nd iteration you mentioned best (getting cam for jak). To me the first one is kinda sorta trying to compete and end up around the play-in again. Yes we've got a couple 20something picks from Phoenix and a couple probably lottery picks from LA in a few years but if I'm trading DJ I want an unprotected lottery pick in 23 and our own high lottery pick in 23 so we have a shot at Wembanyama and hopefully another top 6 pick. NY or Washington give us a shot at that.

  24. #174
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    So this is going to initially sound crazy, but:

    Murray and Richardson to PHX for Paul, Cam Johnson, Shamet and two firsts

    Then (technically simultaneously):

    Paul and Poeltl to LAL for Westbrook and two firsts.

    The Spurs get four first and Cam Johnson for their two best players and taking $10 Million in 2023-2024 salary.
    Phoenix gets to re-sign Ayton and have their young core for cheaper
    LAL gets to basically get the banana boat together

    Then in the off-season, use the bit of cap space that remains to sign Jalen Smith to something like $42M/3 with only the first year guaranteed.

    I initially thought the Spurs should then either waive/buyout Westbrook or send him home until a trade could be found. But then I realized that the resulting team would actually fit him.

    Westbrook, Jones, Wesley
    Vassell, Primo, Branham
    Johnson, McDermott, Langford
    Johnson, Sochan, Bates-Diop
    Smith, Collins, Landale

    Two-way: Wieskamp, Barrlow

    That's actually a fast unit with excellent spacing and defensive ability. The Johnsons and Sochan would make for one of the best young forward rotations I can ever think of. Smith and Collins can both shoot from outside. I think that roster would actually play to Westbrook's strengths. I don't think Westbrook would have another MVP-caliber season, and I'm not sure that I'd want him to dominate the ball enough to find out. But he might perform well enough to get a team to give up value for him. I can't think of a starting PG that would be a better stop-gap. It's sad, because DeJounte himself might be perfect for that lineup. Maybe the Spurs could get Cam for Poeltl if Ayton walks? Johnson, Johnson and Jones are notable free agents after next season, but the Spurs might be able to get all or two of them on reasonable extensions this summer to allow them to go into the next off-season with cap space.
    That is the greatest tank scenario I have ever seen. I would be all over this lol. Get Westbrook to ball dominate and has us lose games while giving us a very good forward option that is young. It gives us a chance to realistically tank for the French dude. Plus both Paul and Lebron won’t even be any good by 2027 and AD might even be injured again giving us another top 10 pick.
    The real gamble though is giving away DJ. He’s a player that doesn’t grow on trees so we have to be super high on Primo to even consider it. Although you could argue we could trade the picks away for a disgruntled player. But the thought of this trade is fascinating

  25. #175
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    ^ on Jock and KBD, if Spurs are interested in Ayton of real, I’d love to see them first package those guys with Romeo to NYK for Nerlens and the Dallas 2023 FRP. Knicks just waive/renounce those guys for capspace.

    That Dallas pick can go in an Ayton S&T.
    I don't think that would work, I think their contracts would become guaranteed in order to trade them.

    However, if the Spurs strike out on Ayton and Collins or just choose to burn space for picks, Spurs could just take Noel into space for draft pick

    OKC fleeced a great future #1 for taking JaMychal Green off Denver

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