NBA: Ja said What???/

[DMC]

Was going to say Kobe couldn't hit the side of a mountain but we know better.

[LkrFan]

Payton not a good defender, best Jordan ever faced and still MJ scored 27pts a game average in the Finals. These clowns today like Matador Harden and KD leaking out before the ball hits the rim. Who are the great defenders of today? Donkey?

[ambchang]

This like like the argument that Tim did so well because he had 3 HOFers around him, and that Parker and Manu wouldn't be without Tim (in the same breath). Take one or the other. Because Mike dominated the league, people try to downplay the level of compe ion, like they use today's players and game style to call that era weak, yet the top 10 all time is full of those guys and Mike sits at the top.

Some of you think the most recent champion should be on the all time top 10 list, too bad you see Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq and Tim on that list. Tim who's prime was in 2003 and who played against MJ while MJ was in Chicago. Bird who also played against MJ and called him god, and Magic who acknowledged Jordan is the GOAT even if he might prefer Butkus or Bob Griese.

Point wasn't Jordan only succeeded with good talent around him (everyone does), my argument (unsubstantiated and most definitely arguable) is that Jordan requires a very specific type of team makeup to win les, and that is to have one of the best perimeter defender who can also facilitate by his side (being Pippen), rugged interior rebounder defender (Grant/Rodman) and a bunch of three point shooters (Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr) and outside shooting centres (Cartwright, Perdue, Wennington) to win. While the three point shooters and outside shooting bigs are a dime a dozen, and the rugged interior rebounder isn't that hard to find, that Pippen role is extremely unique and hard to find. Where as a player like Duncan/Shaq/Wilt/Hakeem/Kareem can win les with a bunch of shooters (easy to find) and a high scoring slasher (hard to find but there are many), making them comparatively easy to build around.

I'd say Jordan, based on accolades and narratives, should still be #1, the argument for and against it is much closer than people would think. There are legit arguments on both sides.

[Neo.]

Your "anyone good" is once again trying to put today's players in Michael's era. The people he played against are all time greats and he had actual big men in the paint unlike these clowns like Embiid who shoot 3's all day.

what all time great wing players was he playing against during his championships years?

[Dirks_Finale]

The 3pt shot is not an anomaly in today's game though. It has become an integral part of the fabric of the modern game. Without it, a great player is lesser. With it, a lesser player is greater. Look at Westbrook and his consecutive triple double seasons and everything he's able to do on the court outside of shooting. He's a giant among giants in every aspect of basketball but shooting. And because of that, he's Russell ing Westbrick, Westbroke. He's a joke of a player who gets laughed at by fans, media, and even opponents.

The value of 3pt shooting for NBA players across the board is immense. It's why a guy like Brook Lopez can be a starting center on a championship contending team well into his 30s while Andre Drummond is stuck signing 1-2 year minimum contracts in his prime 20s.

The player comparison of Jordan to DeMarr DeRozan may seem laughable to some, especially Jordan fanbois, but it actually has more merit than at first glance when you really think about it. Imagine Jordan slowing games down to get in the midpost to shoot fadeaway jumper after fadeaway jumper while opposing teams run and gun hitting three after three. You can't build an offense around a halfcourt set midrange fadeaway jumper in today's game, let alone win. That's why he wouldn't be the best player today. He'd either have to change his game or accept a DeRozan type career.

I think Kawhi is a better comparison. Great midrange game and also excellent defensively. Just as Kawhi made it difficult for the Warriors to hit all those 3's, Jordan would do the same, imho.

[Neo.]

kawhi making it difficult for the warriors to hit threes, and not the injuries to kd and klay

[DMC]

what all time great wing players was he playing against during his championships years?

That's an arbitrary filter

[lefty]

This like like the argument that Tim did so well because he had 3 HOFers around him, and that Parker and Manu wouldn't be without Tim (in the same breath). Take one or the other. Because Mike dominated the league, people try to downplay the level of compe ion, like they use today's players and game style to call that era weak, yet the top 10 all time is full of those guys and Mike sits at the top.

Some of you think the most recent champion should be on the all time top 10 list, too bad you see Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq and Tim on that list. Tim who's prime was in 2003 and who played against MJ while MJ was in Chicago. Bird who also played against MJ and called him god, and Magic who acknowledged Jordan is the GOAT even if he might prefer Butkus or Bob Griese.

You’re gonna use quotes to prove a point?

ok let’s see how this works

Riley : “if I need a shot to win a game, I take Jordan; if I need a shot to save my life, I take Bird”

Isiah : “if you lock MJ, Bird, Magic and myself in a room, the only one who comes out alive is Bird”

Also Larry Bird himself in the 87 Finals said “ Magic is the best player I’ve ever seen….Unbelievable. I don’t know what to say”

And that was 1 year after he called MJ God which was in 1986


See?

[Neo.]

That's an arbitrary filter

got it. thanks

[TDMVPDPOY]

what all time great wing players was he playing against during his championships years?

this, those fkn turds he played against at his position or those so called jordan stoppers, none of them clowns made any all defensive teams....

[lefty]

this, those fkn turds he played against at his position or those so called jordan stoppers, none of them clowns made any all defensive teams....

The Last Dance trying to sell us the notion that Dan Majerle was a defensive speciast to make Jorpoker and his motivation BS look amazing.

Majerle was a slow footed pylon , just watch the 93 Finals highlights, he was like :

“I love your shoes, Michael, let me allow you to go to the basket, and don’t hesitate if you jeed something else, you can find me standing like a tree on the perimeter “

FFS Majerle got lit up by the corpse of Ricky Pierce in the WCF

[Chris Fall]

I think Kawhi is a better comparison. Great midrange game and also excellent defensively. Just as Kawhi made it difficult for the Warriors to hit all those 3's, Jordan would do the same, imho.

Kawhi is bigger, longer, stronger which gives him advantages at both ends that Michael didn't quite have. But sure. You can use Kawhi as a comp too. That's fine. Despite what some Spurs fans would have argued at the time, still NOT the best player in the league. Maybe a season or two on the peripheral discussion as one of the best players. But not THE best player in the league.

Seems like suggesting Michael wouldn't be the best player today means he'd be a bum. No of course not. He'd still be a great player. Probably a top 5-10 player in the league throughout his prime. Just not concensus best player in the league. A large part of greatness is the winning part. And none of us, arguing either side, could guarantee Michael having the same type of championship success as he did in the 90s. We just can't. It's difficult to build around his game today. It's halfcourt, tempo control, midpost isolation, midrange. It makes less sense for success in an open transitional game with one-third or more shots coming from distance. And if you want to argue he'd have adapted his game, fine. Still no guarantee that him adapting would lead to 4, 5, 6 les to keep him on top of Mount Rushmore.

I don't deny that Jordan is/was the Goat. Part of that is he took full advantage of his situation. Meaning, he found himself in the right situation at the right time, on a team, with an organization that decided to build around him, give him a supporting cast that fit and helped him put up superstar numbers in an era and in a conference he could dominate for more than half a decade. He gets drafted in today's league, say from the 2012 draft, to the Washington Wizards instead of Brad Beal, playing with young John Wall, Nene, and Martell Webster under Randy Whitman, do we believe in today's game, they build that team around Jordan the same way the mid 80s Bulls did? And that leads to a slew of rings past LeBron and the Warriors over the past decade? Personally not buying it.

In the 90s he dominated other superstars that never won, Charles, Mailman, Ewing, Reggie Miller. You argue it's because Jordan that they didn't win. I say those same superstars had chances in 95, 96, and after Jordan retire in 98. They still didn't win. And the guys that did, Hakeem, Duncan, Jordan didn't face in the playoffs. He had to wait his turn after true championship players Bird, Magic, Isiah were done because he couldn't beat them. And he dominated superstar players who never proved they could ring. All the while, boosting his legend against the likes of Craig Ehlo, John Starks, and Byron Russell.

Don't get it twisted. He's the Goat. But some of you act like his balls are platinum plated and his never stunk.

[LkrFan]

The Last Dance trying to sell us the notion that Dan Majerle was a defensive speciast to make Jorpoker and his motivation BS look amazing.

Majerle was a slow footed pylon , just watch the 93 Finals highlights, he was like :

“I love your shoes, Michael, let me allow you to go to the basket, and don’t hesitate if you jeed something else, you can find me standing like a tree on the perimeter “

FFS Majerle got lit up by the corpse of Ricky Pierce in the WCF

Truth Social bmbs

[DMC]

You’re gonna use quotes to prove a point?

ok let’s see how this works

Riley : “if I need a shot to win a game, I take Jordan; if I need a shot to save my life, I take Bird”

Isiah : “if you lock MJ, Bird, Magic and myself in a room, the only one who comes out alive is Bird”

Also Larry Bird himself in the 87 Finals said “ Magic is the best player I’ve ever seen….Unbelievable. I don’t know what to say”

And that was 1 year after he called MJ God which was in 1986


See?

What did he say about Ja Morant?

[DMC]

Kawhi is bigger, longer, stronger which gives him advantages at both ends that Michael didn't quite have. But sure. You can use Kawhi as a comp too. That's fine. Despite what some Spurs fans would have argued at the time, still NOT the best player in the league. Maybe a season or two on the peripheral discussion as one of the best players. But not THE best player in the league.

Seems like suggesting Michael wouldn't be the best player today means he'd be a bum. No of course not. He'd still be a great player. Probably a top 5-10 player in the league throughout his prime. Just not concensus best player in the league. A large part of greatness is the winning part. And none of us, arguing either side, could guarantee Michael having the same type of championship success as he did in the 90s. We just can't. It's difficult to build around his game today. It's halfcourt, tempo control, midpost isolation, midrange. It makes less sense for success in an open transitional game with one-third or more shots coming from distance. And if you want to argue he'd have adapted his game, fine. Still no guarantee that him adapting would lead to 4, 5, 6 les to keep him on top of Mount Rushmore.

I don't deny that Jordan is/was the Goat. Part of that is he took full advantage of his situation. Meaning, he found himself in the right situation at the right time, on a team, with an organization that decided to build around him, give him a supporting cast that fit and helped him put up superstar numbers in an era and in a conference he could dominate for more than half a decade. He gets drafted in today's league, say from the 2012 draft, to the Washington Wizards instead of Brad Beal, playing with young John Wall, Nene, and Martell Webster under Randy Whitman, do we believe in today's game, they build that team around Jordan the same way the mid 80s Bulls did? And that leads to a slew of rings past LeBron and the Warriors over the past decade? Personally not buying it.

In the 90s he dominated other superstars that never won, Charles, Mailman, Ewing, Reggie Miller. You argue it's because Jordan that they didn't win. I say those same superstars had chances in 95, 96, and after Jordan retire in 98. They still didn't win. And the guys that did, Hakeem, Duncan, Jordan didn't face in the playoffs. He had to wait his turn after true championship players Bird, Magic, Isiah were done because he couldn't beat them. And he dominated superstar players who never proved they could ring. All the while, boosting his legend against the likes of Craig Ehlo, John Starks, and Byron Russell.

Don't get it twisted. He's the Goat. But some of you act like his balls are platinum plated and his never stunk.

How can he be the GOAT if there are better players than him today who never get added to the GOAT conversation?

[Chris Fall]

Because the vast majority of people view winning and more specifically winning championships as a vital and heavily weighted part of the criteria for Goat. That's why you will still hear some basketball old heads argue Bill Russell is still the Goat despite the fact most rational fans will agree his less than stellar offensive talents and the era and compe ion add perspective to his les that don't place him at the top.

I will tell you now that I believe Wilt Chamberlain was a more dominant player than Jordan, Bird was probably at least as skilled maybe more skilled than Jordan, and LeBron is probably overall the more talented player than Jordan. But they don't have the same accomplishments, les and individual awards. I'll go further. I think Tracy McGrady was a more talented player than Michael. But entering his name into a Goat discussion is absurd because he doesn't have the rings, the MVPs, the scoring records, etc. Those tangible accomplishments back up a Goat claim. And a guy like McGrady simply doesn't have any of that.

The word "better" is not only general and vague but subjective. What is better? More talented? More dominant? More skilled? Better stats? More individual awards? I can think LeBron is actually a better basketball player than Jordan but Jordan is still Goat because of the comparison of accomplishments. And any players' accomplishments, especially winning les, is at least in part credited also to teammates, coaching, organization, among other factors. And that's why I can believe that if Jordan played today in this era, on a different team with different teammates and coaches, that he wouldn't have the same success and thereby not be as great now as he was in the 90s.

[lefty]

There is no GOAT

Sure, great individual players can make the difference in specific situations but there are waaaaaaaay to many criterias
and context matters

- 1st of all. it’s a team sport; the GOAT conversation makes much more sense in individual sports but even then context matters

- different eras

- Rules have an impact, as well as advancement in player development, basketball and scientific knowledge, training etc

- different CBA’s and player rights/ power, culture and mentalities

- the quality of your teammates, your coach, GM matter
Not only that, but the quality of your opposition matters

Just appreciate greatness in every era and forget the goat debate because it’s more complex than you think

Use critical thinking instead of nostalgia and dumb narratives that are cultivated by old heads like on ESPN and FOX

[Dirks_Finale]

You guys always mention Ehlo to try to paint this narrative that Jordan only faced slow white dudes

He faced many good defenders as well like Rodman, Dumars, Anthony Mason, Derek Harper, Bobby Phils etc

Starks gets trashed on this board, but the guy showed a lot of grit and even made an all defensive team in 93.

MJ did demoralize players to the point where I truly believe the contest was over before it even started because he was between their ears. You look at that bully ball era and i think it really existed BECAUSE of MJ's dominance. The Pistons were the one team that really had nice success against the bulls and so the Knicks and Heat adopted a similar style to try and gain a puncher's chance. These cir stances also contribute to his sterling legacy which is damn near impeccable.

Kawhi is bigger, longer, stronger which gives him advantages at both ends that Michael didn't quite have. But sure. You can use Kawhi as a comp too. That's fine. Despite what some Spurs fans would have argued at the time, still NOT the best player in the league. Maybe a season or two on the peripheral discussion as one of the best players. But not THE best player in the league.

Seems like suggesting Michael wouldn't be the best player today means he'd be a bum. No of course not. He'd still be a great player. Probably a top 5-10 player in the league throughout his prime. Just not concensus best player in the league. A large part of greatness is the winning part. And none of us, arguing either side, could guarantee Michael having the same type of championship success as he did in the 90s. We just can't. It's difficult to build around his game today. It's halfcourt, tempo control, midpost isolation, midrange. It makes less sense for success in an open transitional game with one-third or more shots coming from distance. And if you want to argue he'd have adapted his game, fine. Still no guarantee that him adapting would lead to 4, 5, 6 les to keep him on top of Mount Rushmore.

I don't deny that Jordan is/was the Goat. Part of that is he took full advantage of his situation. Meaning, he found himself in the right situation at the right time, on a team, with an organization that decided to build around him, give him a supporting cast that fit and helped him put up superstar numbers in an era and in a conference he could dominate for more than half a decade. He gets drafted in today's league, say from the 2012 draft, to the Washington Wizards instead of Brad Beal, playing with young John Wall, Nene, and Martell Webster under Randy Whitman, do we believe in today's game, they build that team around Jordan the same way the mid 80s Bulls did? And that leads to a slew of rings past LeBron and the Warriors over the past decade? Personally not buying it.

In the 90s he dominated other superstars that never won, Charles, Mailman, Ewing, Reggie Miller. You argue it's because Jordan that they didn't win. I say those same superstars had chances in 95, 96, and after Jordan retire in 98. They still didn't win. And the guys that did, Hakeem, Duncan, Jordan didn't face in the playoffs. He had to wait his turn after true championship players Bird, Magic, Isiah were done because he couldn't beat them. And he dominated superstar players who never proved they could ring. All the while, boosting his legend against the likes of Craig Ehlo, John Starks, and Byron Russell.

Don't get it twisted. He's the Goat. But some of you act like his balls are platinum plated and his never stunk.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if winning wasnt part of the equation criteria to be goat and just focusing on stats only, then scrubs in todays league will be in discussion for goat, especially empty stat padders....for example kg

[DMC]

if winning wasnt part of the equation criteria to be goat and just focusing on stats only, then scrubs in todays league will be in discussion for goat, especially empty stat padders....for example kg

Stats can be misleading, but stats on a dynastic team aren't hollow, and I'm not saying he didn't pad, but I don't recall Jordan going for trip dubs and stupid in losing games.