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  1. #51
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    I get your concern, but to me it doesn't seem problematic.

    You tank, you get better players and from there the improvement is incremental.

    And you have to factor in the impact of one good defensive player ( let's say Sochan ) on a subpar defensive team vs his impact on a good def. team.

    Right now he's not impacting the game as much as he could if he were surrounded by a better def. cast.
    Yeah but this becomes abit of a circular reference. Can only make the argument player a, b, c would be better defensively on a better defensive team.

  2. #52
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    And I thought my posts were long...

    Joking Chinook, good stuff.
    Good analysis, and a reminder to me of how many of these guys wont be on the next really good Spurs team. Maybe Devin and Jeremy only? The name of the game with the others is asset preservation and conversion.

    Pops quote from earlier this year stuck with me: that the goal of this year is to teach and make sure these young guys have a long careers (read: not necessarily in SA). Seeing Eubanks last night reminded me of that.

  3. #53
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    Good analysis, and a reminder to me of how many of these guys won’t be on the next really good Spurs team. Maybe Devin and Jeremy only? The name of the game with the others is asset preservation and conversion.

    Pop’s quote from earlier this year stuck with me: that the goal of this year is to teach and make sure these young guys have a long careers (read: not necessarily in SA). Seeing Eubanks last night reminded me of that.
    Lyles was studly last night for Sacramento vs Memphis.

  4. #54
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    Good analysis, and a reminder to me of how many of these guys won’t be on the next really good Spurs team. Maybe Devin and Jeremy only? The name of the game with the others is asset preservation and conversion.

    Pop’s quote from earlier this year stuck with me: that the goal of this year is to teach and make sure these young guys have a long careers (read: not necessarily in SA). Seeing Eubanks last night reminded me of that.
    So true. The patience, opportunity and development PATFO offer is unprecedented.

    Till we have a few building blocks need to keep harvesting those developmental gains.

  5. #55
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    What's the point here? The Spurs are, finally, tanking.

    Now that's no good because of how porous their defense is?
    A horrid defense isn't something that is easily corrected. It's a sign of laziness, of disinterest, of many other things, none of them good. You'd rather a scrappy, tough team that is overpowered by talent than a team that has no idea what coverage is. Bad habits instilled.

    I'm still a bit baffled at how awful it is. Maybe some neophyte coach or a run-and-gun Doug Moe thing. Supposedly Langford, Poeltl, Jones, and Sochan are at least decent defenders, but it doesn't show. Keldon is a terrible defender and that's not enough to be this bad. McDermott's not even the problem.

  6. #56
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    My guess is Pop is focused entirely on offensive development of the young players, so he doesn't wreck them whenever they defend poorly and make plentiful mistakes on D. There's only so much confidence to go around.

    Or else he's mental and cannot do that side of the court anymore.

    The one guy I do think has improved is Branham. He was awful early in the season, lost and struggling. He's not terrible at this point.

  7. #57
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    This is our best defensive lineup:

    Jak
    Sochan
    Langford
    Vassell or JRich
    Tre

    How long can we argue that each of these guys would be better defenders with better defenders around them? Something has to give.

  8. #58
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    This is our best defensive lineup:

    Jak
    Sochan
    Langford
    Vassell or JRich
    Tre

    How long can we argue that each of these guys would be better defenders with better defenders around them? Something has to give.
    Supposedly they're a good defensive lineup, but they get scorched.

  9. #59
    Veteran JeffDuncan's Avatar
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    This is our best defensive lineup:

    Jak
    Sochan
    Langford
    Vassell or JRich
    Tre

    How long can we argue that each of these guys would be better defenders with better defenders around them? Something has to give.

    Sochan - rookie. It matters.

    Langford - new to the team. It matters.

    The Spurs have a lot of rookies and new players. It matters.

    Memphis has a highly rated defense. Look at their roster.

    Adams - only his 2nd year with the Grizz, but hes a nine-year vet.

    JJJ - in his fifth year, all with Mem.

    Bane - third year with Mem.

    Brooks - not rated a good defender, but hes in his sixth season with Mem. At least he should be very familiar with the team.

    Morant - fourth year with Mem.

    Tyus Jones - in his eighth year and fourth with Mem.

    Anyway, the point is, NBA experience does matter, especially experience with the same teammates.

  10. #60
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I get your concern, but to me it doesn't seem problematic.

    You tank, you get better players and from there the improvement is incremental.

    And you have to factor in the impact of one good defensive player ( let's say Sochan ) on a subpar defensive team vs his impact on a good def. team.

    Right now he's not impacting the game as much as he could if he were surrounded by a better def. cast.
    As I mentioned, there are a number of guys on the Spurs who'd look good on a good defensive team. But right now, there are too many of those guys and too few of the guys to actually make the team a good defensive team. A guy like Sochan can't just be a weather vane defensively. He's not performing as a good defender on a bad team, ala Tari Eason. He's contributing to the team being bad defensively. The sample size is still too small to get a firm initial read on him, but that initial read is likely going to be way more representative of his future impact than folks believe. As I said, true impact defenders tend to come into league and show that impact. That doesn't mean they don't improve, but they don't usually go from ineffective to dominant. I'm not saying to give up on Sochan in that regard, but it's nothing to completely ignore either.

    Jones and Langford are examples of guys who are individually performing well defensively despite the rest of the team being a dumpster fire. It's one think to defend them against talk like, "If they're so good, why is the team horrible?" But guys like Johnson and McDermott are fundamentally hopeless. There are some swing players like Vassell, KBD and even Sochan to some extent, where you aren't writing them off since they are above average for the team but still not performing well leaguewide. Like Sochan is getting put on players of all sizes, but on a whole the average player he's facing is shooting at an above-average level when he's on them. That's not all his fault -- the only rotation player who's actually has above-average success this year is Zach Collins -- but if guys are going to shoot better against him, then he's switchability is not really contributing to any success. It could be useful if better defenders were around him, but then the Spurs are going to have to find better defenders who also are good enough offensive players to build around (since their current best scorers are likely going to be traded due to be just that horrible on D). Sochan is supposed to be a defensive specialist that allows the team to not have to find unicorns. He can't be the guy who needs specialists to function.

  11. #61
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    Sochan - rookie. It matters.

    Langford - new to the team. It matters.

    The Spurs have a lot of rookies and new players. It matters.

    Memphis has a highly rated defense. Look at their roster.

    Adams - only his 2nd year with the Grizz, but hes a nine-year vet.

    JJJ - in his fifth year, all with Mem.

    Bane - third year with Mem.

    Brooks - not rated a good defender, but hes in his sixth season with Mem. At least he should be very familiar with the team.

    Morant - fourth year with Mem.

    Tyus Jones - in his eighth year and fourth with Mem.

    Anyway, the point is, NBA experience does matter, especially experience with the same teammates.
    Good points, but we were trending downward for quite awhile before this when we had DWhite, DJ, etc.

    It's deeper than a young and inexperienced team.

    And ppl used to point at LMA as the weak link as he aged and got slower but now we have Poeltl who is supposedly a defensive stud (while we head towards NBA ignominy), and so ppl point to the wing defenders. But Josh Richardson, Vassell, Langford, and Tre are at least average defenders. Johnson not so much.

    Quite frankly I'm not sure where the blame rests but something is amiss. Maybe pop has lost some of the spark to get on players or spent as much time in film sessions with them. Or maybe the players we've got just aren't good defensively when playing our system.

  12. #62
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Pop stays breaking records

  13. #63
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    Quite frankly I'm not sure where the blame rests but something is amiss. Maybe pop has lost some of the spark to get on players or spent as much time in film sessions with them. Or maybe the players we've got just aren't good defensively when playing our system.
    My thoughts exactly. I’m not smart enough to have a strong view but something is off here and it isn’t simply that we are tanking. I will say mostly having role players be your top 5-7 guys exacerbates this.

  14. #64
    You never know JPB's Avatar
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    A horrid defense isn't something that is easily corrected. It's a sign of laziness, of disinterest, of many other things, none of them good. You'd rather a scrappy, tough team that is overpowered by talent than a team that has no idea what coverage is. Bad habits instilled.

    I'm still a bit baffled at how awful it is. Maybe some neophyte coach or a run-and-gun Doug Moe thing. Supposedly Langford, Poeltl, Jones, and Sochan are at least decent defenders, but it doesn't show. Keldon is a terrible defender and that's not enough to be this bad. McDermott's not even the problem.
    I honestly do'nt believe we should see or put too much in that tanking season... The tank distorts everything for the players individually and the team. Not to mention Pop seems indeed to focus on other things.

    Players know the club is tanking and won't maybe (even unconsciously) leave it all on the floor every night. And it's easier and more punishing to let it go on defense than on offense where you still want your stats and showcase your skills to the NBA or your family and buddies.

  15. #65
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    I honestly do'nt believe we should see or put too much in that tanking season... The tank distorts everything for the players individually and the team. Not to mention Pop seems indeed to focus on other things.

    Players know the club is tanking and won't maybe (even unconsciously) leave it all on the floor every night. And it's easier and more punishing to let it go on defense than on offense where you still want your stats and showcase your skills to the NBA or your family and buddies.
    We're worse than the Rockets (and Hornets and pistons who are all also tanking too), man. Let that sink in. In fact we're worse than every other NBA team in NBA history presently. Those teams are also full of young kids and in the case of Houston, full of some of the most selfish iso players I've seen. We have Pop. They have Silas. We're worse than them...this shouldn't be written off as, oh we're tanking...

  16. #66
    Believe. JuneJive's Avatar
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    Good luck finding the fine line between being worrisome-in-the-long-run on defense and staying compe ive yet losing games.

    I think the numbers from this season don't paint the real picture.

    It's like when you are combining eye-test and advanced stats to evaluate a player, the same goes here, but you have to take into consideration the big picture as a part of that eye-test.
    Big picture being the process of tanking and all that goes with it behind the scenes.

  17. #67
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Good luck finding the fine line between being worrisome-in-the-long-run on defense and staying compe ive yet losing games.

    I think the numbers from this season don't paint the real picture.

    It's like when you are combining eye-test and advanced stats to evaluate a player, the same goes here, but you have to take into consideration the big picture as a part of that eye-test.
    Big picture being the process of tanking and all that goes with it behind the scenes.
    The Spurs are bad. They aren't "trying to be bad". It's true that the front office likely wants the team to lose, but they're losing because the players aren't good, and if the players aren't good, they aren't good. The front office changing their minds isn't going to all of the sudden mean those players who aren't good will start playing better again. I haven't seen anyone besides maybe Gambit suggest the Spurs will never be good again because they suck this year, but absolutely you can look at their play and see it's a reflection of the players. That's even more true given how horrible they have been for years. Johnson sucks on D this year, and he sucked basically as bad last year and every other year. He's not playing down to the moment. Dude's giving his all out there. His all is just woefully inadequate.

    Most of the Spurs are playing for their next contracts if not their careers. They aren't looking at this tanking team and thinking "Meh, I'll get a better gig next year". Stan Johnson was out of the league. KBD, Roby and Langford are on the edge. Josh Richardson is a journeyman trying to find a home. Tre and Devin have big negotiating windows opening up. Jakob's trying to lock down generational health. Colllins is trying to show he belongs. Pretty much every player has a reason to go out there and try their hardest every night, and the sum total of that is a historically bad defense and one of the worst records in 50 seasons. Some of the guys like Tre and Romeo can at least say they've done their parts, but most can't.

    The Spurs are going to have to get rid of basically everyone on the roster in order to fix their issue. That's not the worst thing in the world given how many future picks and cap space the team has. They'll have ample opportunity to figure something out. But the front office is 100-percent using this year to evaluate the roster. They are chucking up the record to tanking, but they were definitely expecting guys to be stepping it up on either or both ends, and the guys who aren't doing that are going to be at a disadvantage going forward. That Sochan is the third-worst rookie in the whole league in terms of DFG differential matters. He's 21 out of 27 rookies (min 252 minutes) in terms of defensive RAPTOR. He's 31/47 draftees in terms of BPM (which isn't separated on that table), and 34 in terms of WS/48. A lot of rookies on tanking teams are not playing nearly as badly as he is. No, he's not hopeless, but it matters.

  18. #68
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    "That Sochan is the third-worst rookie in the whole league in terms of DFG differential matters. He's 21 out of 27 rookies (min 252 minutes) in terms of defensive RAPTOR. He's 31/47 draftees in terms of BPM (which isn't separated on that table), and 34 in terms of WS/48. A lot of rookies on tanking teams are not playing nearly as badly as he is. No, he's not hopeless, but it matters."

    Finally someone with the statistical goods that back up what my eyes have been telling me. Sochan isn't the defensive whiz he was/is cracked up to be. Thanks Chinook for the effort to find these stats. I wouldn't have even known where to look.

  19. #69
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    It's because he's mobile and man's up his guy with a squared chest more often than not. It's not his athleticism. It's being out of position too often it appears to me.

  20. #70
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Watching a few games, it seems like the biggest issue is that the Spurs does not have a defensive scheme and they continuously miscommunicate. It is a highly odd thing to say about the Spurs but the defenders are pretty much always out of position, and they can somehow leave three point shooters wide open, fail to cover passing lanes AND fail to block off cuts all in one possession. They often scramble and lead to multiple open shooters and cutters as multiple defenders will just chase the ball. I have no idea why they are doing it. It's like high school basketball.

  21. #71
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    after the claw fiasco, even with a losing record...spurs still hold the all time winning %? or has boston taken it back

  22. #72
    Believe. horseshue's Avatar
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    Another 140+ pts game for opposing side incoming. In theese days it seems like everybody is having a field day against spurs.

  23. #73
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    Another 140+ pts game for opposing side incoming. In theese days it seems like everybody is having a field day against spurs.
    With 3 of the better defenders out, it would be more surprising if it did not happen.

  24. #74
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    Another 140+ pts game for opposing side incoming. In theese days it seems like everybody is having a field day against spurs.
    Damn good prediction on the point total. just a bucket shy of the guess

  25. #75
    Veteran The Truth #6's Avatar
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    People here are questioning if Jeremy or Devin or Keldon will ever be good defenders. On one hand, it feels like an overreaction, but our defense is so bad you have to put the finger somewhere. I get it. But it seems like Yak has escaped the same criticism. So either our supposed good defenders are actually not that good or maybe it’s something outside the individual players. It’s a conundrum.

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