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  1. #26
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    WGAF TBH.

    Does it really matter? This team is aiming for a high draft pick. Should we really be upset that the defense sucks?
    Sigh...not sure why exactly I have to repeat myself here constantly regarding this issue.

    IDGAF about losing or even being bad defensively THIS YEAR. I'm a proud member of team tank since last year.

    My concern is that we've been heading into this downward spiral of being a piss poor defensive basketball team for most of the past decade, or at least the last 6-7 years.

    One lucky ping ping ball bounce will not make our current talent suddenly better perimeter defenders. Understand, we are presently headed towards the WORST DEFENSIVE RATING SEASON IN NBA HISTORY. We may tick up a few spots from worst ever to still historically bad and win a bunch of games 130-128.

    Make no mistake, Wembanyama if we're lucky enough to get him, will absolutely make us better overall but we'll still lose multiple games and maybe return to mediocrity again at best IF we can more often than not outscore our opponents. Because our roster is not winning games on the defensive side.

    That should trouble you for *beyond* this year. And these are Pop-coached (defensive genius) teams, not some scrub newbie.

  2. #27
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    The bad defense is in large part a product of players just being young, but I also think there are likely more legit bad defenders than there are decent ones, let alone good ones.

    By position:


    PG: Jones is basically the only consistent bright spot on defense. By RAPTOR, he's a top-20 player at his position, and on the defensive end, he's 13 on a list that includes many bigger guards and wings who moonlight at PG sometimes. The Spurs could improve at the position, but he would totally be able to fit as a cog in a great defense just as Parker fit into the Spurs of old despite his personal limitations.

    SG: Vassell is sort of the same in that I think he'd play well with a strong defensive core, but he is more of a product of his surroundings than Jones, who's arguably the only thing keeping the Spurs from absolutely worst. I do worry about him picking up some bad habits, but he has good tools.
    Langford is getting a ton of run, and while he's grading out well enough defensively, I don't see how he's a keeper. Maybe on a cheap contract coming off the bench? As a starter, I just think he leaves too much on the table.
    Richardson like a few Spurs looks like he's defending well while grading out horribly. On the continuum with Jones and Vassell, Richardson would probably contribute with a strong defensive unit, but he's more in like "He can hold down a seventh man if necessary" category. I like Josh a lot and wouldn't mind him on the team long team if they are somehow able to make a quick pivot after the draft. But it's starting to be too many names who'd be great surrounded by a core and not enough of that core itself.
    Branham. Bad as advertised. I think he grades out as literally the worst defender in the league. Yikes. Hopefully the kid can clean that up.

    SF: Keldon playing SF has been an unmitigated disaster. He's having his worst year, and he's much worse than even the average Spur on that end. I think you can make a good argument that losing the weight has helped his offense, but the insistence that Johnson's ineffectiveness came down to not playing his "natural position" is currently unsupported. He's seen a decline in net-impact, which is insane considering his improved scoring.
    McDermott is only not the worst-defending Spur in terms of RAPTOR because Branham exists. He and Johnson trade poor statistical rankings. His is easily the Spurs' weakest position.

    PF: Sochan is an ineffective defender who is trying way too hard to be one of those "mind games" guys who honestly went the way of the dinosaurs like 10 years ago. He obviously has potential, but I'm not sure players usually rise to become elite defenders after starting out as bad defenders. This contrasts with someone like Tari Eason who's actually already a good defender.
    Stan is grading out to be a bad defender, but he's also the 10th man and contributing a lot on offense to where he's one of the most positive players on the team. It'd be unacceptable long term, but he's not the team's problem right now.
    KBD: He's another entry in the "good piece on already great defensive team but not a foundational player to such a defense" ledger. For a team defending as badly as it does, Keita's almost-neutral rating actually suggests he's a positive contributor. But he's a really streaky offensive player who nets out as pretty bad on that end despite the flashes, so the team is probably not missing his minutes.
    Roby I feel didn't get much of a chance this season, though he's literally never been more than a below-average defender despite having a profile of someone who'd be good on that end.

    C: Poeltl is good, but he's always lacked the top gear to be a truly elite defender. He's pretty mobile for his position and protects the rim smartly. His man defense has always been meh, and his boxing out has been spotty against any decent center. He's not hurting the Spurs, but I do think he has to play better.
    I really don't like Collins. He's a goon who tries to injure people. Like Sochan, he seems to have an antiquated idea of what good defense looks like and isn't even effective at that style anyway. Every once in a while, I'll look up to see him have an incredible statline. So maybe he has good trade value somewhere. I'd explore than if I were the Spurs. He has some potential as a former 10th-overall pick and is mostly healthy now. But I can't really root for him.
    Bassey's been okay. He's young and dumb. but he's alethic and seems to take some pride in blocking shots. I wouldn't mind seeing him.
    Dieng is done.

    It's easy to say that the bad defense doesn't matter because the team is tanking anyway. But it's very possible the team is going to have excise a fair bit of the roster, including multiple young players who had potential, if they're going to figure it out on that end. The level of bad defense we're currently seeing is unacceptable to my mind. While I think it's possible to learn to play a defensive role after not being a good defender, I don't think one can take a club full of bad defenders and get anything positive out of it on that end. They're going to have to strongly limit the number of bad players in their rotation, and right now they're way, way above critical mass.

    I'd also question if the defensive concepts Pop and his staff are teaching are really ideal for the modern NBA. I haven't looked too much into what schemes the Spurs are running and what principles they're employing on that side of the floor. But it's weird that even with so much turnover, the Spurs still seem to allow so many wide-open threes. It's possible that they do that way more by design than some may assume. I could see an old scheme allowing those shots if it's from a time when three-point shooting percentages where much lower and hard closeouts were way more effective in disrupting opposing shooters. Even if there is a schematic compromise that the Spurs are unwisely accepting, the personnel is the main culprit for the current nadir, in my eyes.

  3. #28
    Costly Mistakes JPB's Avatar
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    And I thought my posts were long...

    Joking Chinook, good stuff.

  4. #29
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    ook with the heat. Very sobering analysis.

  5. #30
    "The ball don't lie." dbestpro's Avatar
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    I would love to see a really bad team play old-school defense. I do not care if the refs call 60 fouls during a game. Eventually, they will stop calling the silly stuff, and the team will get to play in a way others cannot. It could make the game entertaining again.

  6. #31
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    It's easy to say that the bad defense doesn't matter because the team is tanking anyway. But it's very possible the team is going to have excise a fair bit of the roster, including multiple young players who had potential, if they're going to figure it out on that end. The level of bad defense we're currently seeing is unacceptable to my mind. While I think it's possible to learn to play a defensive role after not being a good defender, I don't think one can take a club full of bad defenders and get anything positive out of it on that end. They're going to have to strongly limit the number of bad players in their rotation, and right now they're way, way above critical mass.
    My concern is, when (if?) they continue to miss out on the elite prospects, they continue to prioritize players with defensive/"connector" type reputations, who lack freakish physical tools, thinking that between their supposed basketball IQ and hustle and the ability to "coach 'em up", they can build a strong defensive foundation to make up for their lack of talent.

  7. #32
    Veteran Ariel's Avatar
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    My concern is, when (if?) they continue to miss out on the elite prospects, they continue to prioritize players with defensive/"connector" type reputations, who lack freakish physical tools, thinking that between their supposed basketball IQ and hustle and the ability to "coach 'em up", they can build a strong defensive foundation to make up for their lack of talent.
    We didn't skip any such player, if we want them to be "at hand" then we have to pick higher. Hopefully this is the year.

  8. #33
    Veteran J_Paco's Avatar
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    My only issue is with calling Sochan a "bad" defender. He's routinely asked to defend the other team's best offensive player likely with only a glaring idea of said player's tendencies/moves.

    While often times creating a mismatch that the opposing team can exploit. Which is usually against Keldon, Devin and sometimes Tre.

    He clearly isn't LeBron, who is, but we've seen other players start off as "poor" defenders yet with time & experience they become good or great.

    I'm a lot more concerned with Devin's lack of defensive impact through three years and Keldon being in "no man's land" defensively as his career progresses. Not big enough to defend PF's and yet lack the lateral quickness to guard on the perimeter.

  9. #34
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    This part sums up the point I'm making:

    "But it's very possible the team is going to have excise a fair bit of the roster, including multiple young players who had potential, if they're going to figure it out on that end."

    Great post, Chinook.

  10. #35
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    This part sums up the point I'm making:

    "But it's very possible the team is going to have excise a fair bit of the roster, including multiple young players who had potential, if they're going to figure it out on that end."

    Great post, Chinook.
    I think Keldon is the next to be sold high in the next 12-18months. Get Vassell on a similar deal and rinse and repeat.

    The good news is that even with a top 5 lottery addition looming we will still likely be a bottom feeding team and should have a few opportunities to build a true high ceiling young core.
    Last edited by KingKev; 01-22-2023 at 03:43 PM.

  11. #36
    Chopper Ed Helicopter Jones's Avatar
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    To Keldon is the next to be sold high in the next 12-18months. Get Vassell on a similar deal and rinse and repeat.

    The good news is that even with a top 5 lottery addition looming we will still likely be a bottom feeding team and should have a few opportunities to build a true high ceiling young core.
    I'm guessing the Spurs FO might see if they land a whale in this next draft in order to determine what decent complimentary pieces to start handing onto (if any). Get Wemby and you build around him. Get another ancillary piece, and you continue to maximize your return on investment and shed your most valuable young assets as you've said.

    At least the Spurs wised up and aren't attempting to win with non-winners anymore. Some wasted years with having Aldridge and/or Demar as the centerpiece.

  12. #37
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    We didn't skip any such player, if we want them to be "at hand" then we have to pick higher. Hopefully this is the year.
    I'm not suggesting they'd pass up no brainer top prospects for preference, I'm saying everything beneath that.

    For instance, my sense is they'll have more interest in the Thompson twins than Miller, Smith Jr. and Whitmore, if they pick in the 3-5 range and Black than George if they pick beyond that, which might not necessarily be "wrong" obviously, but all things being relatively equal, they have to start going with the latter types.

  13. #38
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    ^ my biggest fear for this draft is we fall to 7 or 8 and proceed to reach for a culture guy over BPA

    We probably have a similar chance of this happening as landing Wemby.

  14. #39
    Remember Cherokee Parks The Truth #6's Avatar
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    Small market teams have a rough road. Culture guys are less likely to force their way out. Better players available have their own baggage. If we get a centerpiece and don’t have pieces to win they may want out, too.

    A lot of BS in that Dejounte interview but at the same time there’s a lot of hard “truth” to accept as fans as far as the world of the NBA. And then of course, the hard truth of what the game has slowly devolved into by the management choices of the league management as far as how the game is played and promoted.

    All this to say, Spurs fans were so lucky for so long.

    Just venting…

  15. #40
    R.C. Drunkford TimDunkem's Avatar
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    Good.

  16. #41
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    ^ my biggest fear for this draft is we fall to 7 or 8 and proceed to reach for a culture guy over BPA

    We probably have a similar chance of this happening as landing Wemby.
    Actually, higher. 18.9% as opposed to 12.5% for Wemby. OTOH, our odds for 6,7,8 46.6% are lower than Houston’s odds for #5, 47.9%.

  17. #42
    Veteran Ariel's Avatar
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    As it stands right now, we have:
    1 chance in 8 of landing Wemby
    1 chance in 4 of landing Wemby OR Scoot (slightly less)
    (about) equal chances of making the top 4 and not.

  18. #43
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    As it stands right now, we have:
    1 chance in 8 of landing Wemby
    1 chance in 4 of landing Wemby OR Scoot (slightly less)
    (about) equal chances of making the top 4 and not.
    This sums up where our chances well. Roughly 50/50 we get one of the top 4. And right now, there are 2 that stand above the others, and 1 that clearly stands out. So even picking third or fourth, while a very high pick for PATFO, still might not be franchise changing. That means odds are roughly equal that we only marginally improve next year as opposed to taking a much larger leap with Wembanyama. So much rides on us getting him.

  19. #44
    Formerly Spurs21 KingKev's Avatar
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    This sums up where our chances well. Roughly 50/50 we get one of the top 4. And right now, there are 2 that stand above the others, and 1 that clearly stands out. So even picking third or fourth, while a very high pick for PATFO, still might not be franchise changing. That means odds are roughly equal that we only marginally improve next year as opposed to taking a much larger leap with Wembanyama. So much rides on us getting him.
    Even with Wemby the tank should ride. Sell high on Keldon. Limit Wemby’s minutes till he gets used to the NBA and we understand what we have in him. Find him a wingman in the 2024 lottery.

    Wemby will take this team from a 25 win team to 30-35. I want 2-3yrs in the top 5.

  20. #45
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    Even with Wemby the tank should ride. Sell high on Keldon. Limit Wemby’s minutes till he gets used to the NBA and we understand what we have in him. Find him a wingman in the 2024 lottery.

    Wemby will take this team from a 25 win team to 30-35. I want 2-3yrs in the top 5.
    No argument from me.

  21. #46
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    I'm pretty convinced the Spurs never practiced defense at all. Not during the off-season, not during the preseason, not during the season. They don't have guys back in case of fast breaks. They don't cover open shooters. It's high school stuff and they're awful.

  22. #47
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    I'm pretty convinced the Spurs never practiced defense at all. Not during the off-season, not during the preseason, not during the season. They don't have guys back in case of fast breaks. They don't cover open shooters. It's high school stuff and they're awful.
    Spurs about to give up ~120 pts through 3 quarters. Last I researched it, our defensive rating (points per 100 possessions) was 119.9.

    We're just solidifying our worst defensive rating in NBA history. , at least we can be spoken about again in the record books for something.

    My God if I told this board a pop-coached team would be headed towards this record, and that pop would be smiling and laughing every game, you'd all call me a liar.

  23. #48
    Believe. JuneJive's Avatar
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    What's the point here? The Spurs are, finally, tanking.

    Now that's no good because of how porous their defense is?

  24. #49
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    What's the point here? The Spurs are, finally, tanking.

    Now that's no good because of how porous their defense is?
    Jesus H. and Mary. The point?

    Read my post #26 above.

  25. #50
    Believe. JuneJive's Avatar
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    I get your concern, but to me it doesn't seem problematic.

    You tank, you get better players and from there the improvement is incremental.

    And you have to factor in the impact of one good defensive player ( let's say Sochan ) on a subpar defensive team vs his impact on a good def. team.

    Right now he's not impacting the game as much as he could if he were surrounded by a better def. cast.

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