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  1. #26
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    Jokic has maintained his historically great play in the playoffs and his team has won two series as clear underdogs, both of which came in his pre-early prime.

    Unfortunately for them, they haven't had a chance the past two post seasons without Murray and the past one without Porter Jr.
    To this day i thought Plumlee threw the game winner in the Bubble Bowl.
    Game 2.

    Instead of being 1-1 the Flamers got the pivital 2-0 lead.

  2. #27
    Believe. MultiTroll's Avatar
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    2 seconds left AND a foul to give. Denver with the lead by 1.
    Watch Plumlees super fake defense.


  3. #28
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of Giannis. Don't dislike the person. He's fine. I just don't like his game. His dominance is hugely based on his unique combination of size, length, and athleticism and how he uses those things to his advantage. I don't knock it. I just don't like it. I'm more of a fan of using skill and IQ to beat your opponent.

    That doesn't mean Giannis isn't skilled at all or doesn't have good IQ. It's just that the physical gifts are the things that put him over the top to help make him one of the better and more productive players in the league. The comparison is Shaq with his body and use of physicality. And you understand why some people didn't like Shaq's game.

    Giannis is all sorts of elbows and knees, galloping 20 feet in two strides, dunking without having to leave the floor, and still clearing defenders with a shoulder to create space. I don't like it.

    It's like the difference between young Russell Westbrook and Steph Curry. Between those two styles, I prefer Curry 10 times out of 10 over Westbrook. And I prefer, for example, Joker over Giannis 10 times out of 10 as well.
    Heís not the 1st superstar to benefit from his athletic gifts and he wonít be thr last

    And to his credit he has - albeit slowly- improving his outside shooting and made clutch free throws during the Bucks le run.

    Also made timely defensive plays

  4. #29
    This Team Makes Me Drink Goob's Avatar
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    Plumlee played for the Duke pricks. What do you expect?

  5. #30
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    Tier 1: Warriors, Clippers, Craptors (I realize they're fringe and have no chance of doing damage).

    Tier 2: Grizzlies, Mavericks.




    At the classic casual, results without context take.

    Jokic has maintained his historically great play in the playoffs and his team has won two series as clear underdogs, both of which came in his pre-early prime.

    Unfortunately for them, they haven't had a chance the past two post seasons without Murray and the past one without Porter Jr.
    Iím a classic casual bc I donít want a loser to be a 3 time MVP? The dude shouldnít have won it last year. At all. You canít be the 6th seed get bounced in 5 games in the first round and be the MVP. Bc you werenít that valuable. And that goes for Westbrook too.

    This guy is better than Duncan? Than Shaq? Than Hakeem? You donít know how much 3 MVPs means to a legacy. Itís all time ing great. Itís not that same as winning one MVP. If you win 3 then you are an all time all time. There arenít any loser 3 time MVPs. The worst one is Moses and he led his team to the Finals before running roughshod through the whole NBA.
    Causal my ass. Only a causal can put Jokic in that air without winning a ring, getting bounced in the first round and losing in the second round the other time he won MVP. If Michael ing Porter is the reason why you donít win a ring then maybe you arenít an all time great player.

  6. #31
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    Iím a classic casual bc I donít want a loser to be a 3 time MVP? The dude shouldnít have won it last year. At all. You canít be the 6th seed get bounced in 5 games in the first round and be the MVP. Bc you werenít that valuable. And that goes for Westbrook too.

    This guy is better than Duncan? Than Shaq? Than Hakeem? You donít know how much 3 MVPs means to a legacy. Itís all time ing great. Itís not that same as winning one MVP. If you win 3 then you are an all time all time. There arenít any loser 3 time MVPs. The worst one is Moses and he led his team to the Finals before running roughshod through the whole NBA.
    Causal my ass. Only a causal can put Jokic in that air without winning a ring, getting bounced in the first round and losing in the second round the other time he won MVP. If Michael ing Porter is the reason why you donít win a ring then maybe you arenít an all time great player.
    At still failing to factor in context to results. He's been by far the highest impact player in the regular season in recent years, propping up a team bereft a second star.

    Foolish results of the past shouldn't factor into now and Porter Jr. is their third option and fourth best player.

  7. #32
    coffee's for closers FrostKing's Avatar
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    I’m a classic casual bc I don’t want a loser to be a 3 time MVP? The dude shouldn’t have won it last year. At all. You can’t be the 6th seed get bounced in 5 games in the first round and be the MVP. Bc you weren’t that valuable. And that goes for Westbrook too.

    This guy is better than Duncan? Than Shaq? Than Hakeem? You don’t know how much 3 MVPs means to a legacy. It’s all time ing great. It’s not that same as winning one MVP. If you win 3 then you are an all time all time. There aren’t any loser 3 time MVPs. The worst one is Moses and he led his team to the Finals before running roughshod through the whole NBA.
    Causal my ass. Only a causal can put Jokic in that air without winning a ring, getting bounced in the first round and losing in the second round the other time he won MVP. If Michael ing Porter is the reason why you don’t win a ring then maybe you aren’t an all time great player.
    Guys like Durant are cheapening Championship Rings and your focus is a regular season Award?

    Almost everyone agrees it's an inferior NBA today. These guys sitting out large amounts of games is a significant reason why it's a lesser product and why Jokic is stockpiling the award.

  8. #33
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    At different times in NBA past, there have been worthy, deserving MVPs that didn't win it. There have been guys like Kobe who probably shouldn't have won it the year he did but got it because the league wanted to gift him a lifetime award. And then guys like Karl Malone and Derrick Rose who won at least in part because the voters weren't going to give it to Michael or LeBron again.

    I think Jokic has won each previous year on the merits of what he did each year, individually in the regular season. And each was deserving. If Jokic didn't win last year, it would have gone to Embiid, another guy who hadn't done in the playoffs and hasn't even gotten out of the second round. Plus, Embiid had missed 45 games in the previous two seasons he'd been up for the MVP. And I don't believe Giannis deserves to be a three time MVP, compared to guys like Shaq or Duncan either.

    Jokic has been the most valuable player in the regular season in the league the last three seasons. And imo pretty clearly so. His impact on his team when he's on the court versus when he's sitting is greater than any other player in the league. In fact, imo only Luka pre-Kyrie was more essential to his team success. Judging based on what happens in the post season is an irrelevant argument. If that's the case, just get rid of the regular season MVP altogether.

  9. #34
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    I think he is the best player in the NBA.

    First, the impact of individual man defense has been all but wiped out in the league. Not just by rules but with style of play, with improved perimeter skills by big men in general, and the fact most teams switch everything now. The best lockdown defenders today could play perfect defense on guys like Steph, Durant, Luka, etc. and still get lit up for 40 on 70% shooting. The game constantly evolves and individual man defense matters less and less in todayís game, even in the playoffs. Itís not unimportant, just less important. Team defense, communicating, rotating, and recovery to the three point line are all more important than individual man defense.

    Also, itís already been proven by several basketball ďnerdsĒ in research and articles that Jokicís defense is not the liability some basketball critics like to pretend and claim it is. And it hasnít been for a couple seasons now. Heíll never be an elite defender, certainly not an elite shot blocking and shot altering defender that great big man defenders traditionally are. But heís nowhere near as bad as some continue to suggest.

    His impact shows up at both ends. His team +/- when heís on and off the court is mind blowing, especially when you compare to other superstars and MVP candidates. It really is.
    He is not a good defensive player. And it still matters, especially at his position. Good rim protecting bigs alter layups and make guys have to think about it when they drive into the lane. And when they know the layins aren't as easy it puts more pressure on them to make outside shots. It is amplified in playoff basketball.

  10. #35
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    At still failing to factor in context to results. He's been by far the highest impact player in the regular season in recent years, propping up a team bereft a second star.

    Foolish results of the past shouldn't factor into now and Porter Jr. is their third option and fourth best player.
    I think you have zero context. Your idea of propping up a team is the 6th seed and a first round bounce. I have higher standards. He hasn't been more impactful than Giannis as his team has won more than Jokic and Giannis actually plays defense. You have the same tired argument that people had for Westbrick when he won it. Well look at his team, they would be nothing without him. Yeah but they aren't much with him either.

    And to Frost, yeah I do care about MVPs. Who doesn't? Not everything is rings. If that were the case everybody would have Pippen ranked as the best SF of all time. But he isn't. or Draymond would be better than Barkley. But he isn't. And when you factor in it would be his 3rd MVP in a row then you have to start caring. But if you want to bring up Durant cheapening ring, that's ok. But to me, Lebron did that already years ago. Durant is a beta. Everybody knows it. But even beta Durant is a better player than Jokic and the fact this guy is gonna win his 3rd straight award is garbage.

  11. #36
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    He is not a good defensive player. And it still matters, especially at his position. Good rim protecting bigs alter layups and make guys have to think about it when they drive into the lane. And when they know the layins aren't as easy it puts more pressure on them to make outside shots. It is amplified in playoff basketball.
    Itís just a bad opinion. And yes, that opinion is only an opinion. Not factual at all. Facts and stats say otherwise. I could link articles but youíd likely not read them. I could site advanced stats but youíd likely dismiss them as flawed. But factually and actually, Nikola Jokic is not only not a defensive liability, heís solid and sometimes even good defensively. That goes beyond just Defensive Rating, which hoops fans discredit as teammate reliant. Itís beyond Defensive +/- or Defensive Win Shares, which oh by the way he is statistically better at than guys like Jaren Jackson, Nic Claxton, Deandre Ayton. But again, you wouldnít believe stats like that. Even opponent FG%, he compares favorably with all those bigs who are considered good defenders. Not the best, but nowhere near the worse, not even bad.

    Once people get it in their head that a player is one thing, theyíre often reluctant to admit or acknowledge that the player could have improved. Joker just three seasons ago was a bad defender. Things really changed starting last season. If you want links to articles and youíll actually read them, I can provide them. From basketball heads more informed and more geeked out than me.

    Your own personal eye test really means nothing. Itís an opinion. A wrong opinion at that. Iíll give just one example why. Bigs like Embiid and Gobert play the pick-and-roll with drop coverage something like over 90% of the time. The PNR ballhandler uses the screen and takes a pretty much uncontested three and makes it, and most people arenít blaming Embiid or Gobert for the three pointer, unless itís someone like Curry and he made like 5 threes in a row in PNR. The last two seasons, Jokic, who used to play a lot of drop coverage in PNR, now hedges and then switches out on the perimeter on guards and wings. And the PNR ballhandler now has him in isolation and can drive by him for a lay-up. He WILL get blamed for getting beat off the dribble. But in reality, he just saved his team 1 point compared to Embiid and Gobert. Todayís game when teams are shooting threes one out of three field goal attempts or more and making them at a clip greater than ever before, blocked shots and altered shots in the paint matter less and less. Only a stubborn old head would put so much weight on big men blocking and altering shots as the primary factor in determining whether a big is a good defender or not. Thatís not todayís game.

  12. #37
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Itís just a bad opinion. And yes, that opinion is only an opinion. Not factual at all. Facts and stats say otherwise. I could link articles but youíd likely not read them. I could site advanced stats but youíd likely dismiss them as flawed. But factually and actually, Nikola Jokic is not only not a defensive liability, heís solid and sometimes even good defensively. That goes beyond just Defensive Rating, which hoops fans discredit as teammate reliant. Itís beyond Defensive +/- or Defensive Win Shares, which oh by the way he is statistically better at than guys like Jaren Jackson, Nic Claxton, Deandre Ayton. But again, you wouldnít believe stats like that. Even opponent FG%, he compares favorably with all those bigs who are considered good defenders. Not the best, but nowhere near the worse, not even bad.

    Once people get it in their head that a player is one thing, theyíre often reluctant to admit or acknowledge that the player could have improved. Joker just three seasons ago was a bad defender. Things really changed starting last season. If you want links to articles and youíll actually read them, I can provide them. From basketball heads more informed and more geeked out than me.

    Your own personal eye test really means nothing. Itís an opinion. A wrong opinion at that. Iíll give just one example why. Bigs like Embiid and Gobert play the pick-and-roll with drop coverage something like over 90% of the time. The PNR ballhandler uses the screen and takes a pretty much uncontested three and makes it, and most people arenít blaming Embiid or Gobert for the three pointer, unless itís someone like Curry and he made like 5 threes in a row in PNR. The last two seasons, Jokic, who used to play a lot of drop coverage in PNR, now hedges and then switches out on the perimeter on guards and wings. And the PNR ballhandler now has him in isolation and can drive by him for a lay-up. He WILL get blamed for getting beat off the dribble. But in reality, he just saved his team 1 point compared to Embiid and Gobert. Todayís game when teams are shooting threes one out of three field goal attempts or more and making them at a clip greater than ever before, blocked shots and altered shots in the paint matter less and less. Only a stubborn old head would put so much weight on big men blocking and altering shots as the primary factor in determining whether a big is a good defender or not. Thatís not todayís game.
    this tbh

  13. #38
    Winner in a losers circle 140's Avatar
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    Itís just a bad opinion. And yes, that opinion is only an opinion. Not factual at all. Facts and stats say otherwise. I could link articles but youíd likely not read them. I could site advanced stats but youíd likely dismiss them as flawed. But factually and actually, Nikola Jokic is not only not a defensive liability, heís solid and sometimes even good defensively. That goes beyond just Defensive Rating, which hoops fans discredit as teammate reliant. Itís beyond Defensive +/- or Defensive Win Shares, which oh by the way he is statistically better at than guys like Jaren Jackson, Nic Claxton, Deandre Ayton. But again, you wouldnít believe stats like that. Even opponent FG%, he compares favorably with all those bigs who are considered good defenders. Not the best, but nowhere near the worse, not even bad.

    Once people get it in their head that a player is one thing, theyíre often reluctant to admit or acknowledge that the player could have improved. Joker just three seasons ago was a bad defender. Things really changed starting last season. If you want links to articles and youíll actually read them, I can provide them. From basketball heads more informed and more geeked out than me.

    Your own personal eye test really means nothing. Itís an opinion. A wrong opinion at that. Iíll give just one example why. Bigs like Embiid and Gobert play the pick-and-roll with drop coverage something like over 90% of the time. The PNR ballhandler uses the screen and takes a pretty much uncontested three and makes it, and most people arenít blaming Embiid or Gobert for the three pointer, unless itís someone like Curry and he made like 5 threes in a row in PNR. The last two seasons, Jokic, who used to play a lot of drop coverage in PNR, now hedges and then switches out on the perimeter on guards and wings. And the PNR ballhandler now has him in isolation and can drive by him for a lay-up. He WILL get blamed for getting beat off the dribble. But in reality, he just saved his team 1 point compared to Embiid and Gobert. Todayís game when teams are shooting threes one out of three field goal attempts or more and making them at a clip greater than ever before, blocked shots and altered shots in the paint matter less and less. Only a stubborn old head would put so much weight on big men blocking and altering shots as the primary factor in determining whether a big is a good defender or not. Thatís not todayís game.
    so youre giving credit to jokic for switching and then getting burned on the switch? if thats the case then its just a matter of scheme and any big can be a good defender im sure embiid and gobert can do that as well tbh

  14. #39
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    so youre giving credit to jokic for switching and then getting burned on the switch? if thats the case then its just a matter of scheme and any big can be a good defender im sure embiid and gobert can do that as well tbh
    No Iím saying heís playing a style of defense more appropriate to the style of play of todayís game. If he gets beat off the dribble for a lay-up, then heís running them off the three point line. If bigs who drop into the paint in PNR end up giving up wide open three after wide open three, the way players shoot today, itís worse imo. On the flip, any big defender can play drop coverage in pick and roll too, and give up wide open threes. And the same Jokic critics would say how bad his defense is for doing that.

    Jokic switching out on the perimeter is actually good team defense in todayís game because of all the three point shooting. More and more teams are switching pretty much everything these days. Itís the right strategy against really good three point shooting teams or teams that all of a sudden get really hot from deep. Camping a 7 foot center in the paint is terrible defense in todayís league.

    And for the criticism earlier someone posted about Jokic being taken out of a playoff game late for defense, well thatís also a product of todayís game with smallball line-ups. Same exact thing happened to three time DPOY Rudy Gobert couple playoffs ago. Same would happen to guys like Embiid or even in their primes Shaq or Tim Duncan if the opposing team trotted out five perimeter players who all shoot the three well for an important late possession.

  15. #40
    Every game is game 1 Seventyniner's Avatar
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    And for the criticism earlier someone posted about Jokic being taken out of a playoff game late for defense, well thatís also a product of todayís game with smallball line-ups. Same exact thing happened to three time DPOY Rudy Gobert couple playoffs ago. Same would happen to guys like Embiid or even in their primes Shaq or Tim Duncan if the opposing team trotted out five perimeter players who all shoot the three well for an important late possession.
    It still hurts

  16. #41
    5 Bill_Brasky's Avatar
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    Itís just a bad opinion. And yes, that opinion is only an opinion. Not factual at all. Facts and stats say otherwise. I could link articles but youíd likely not read them. I could site advanced stats but youíd likely dismiss them as flawed. But factually and actually, Nikola Jokic is not only not a defensive liability, heís solid and sometimes even good defensively. That goes beyond just Defensive Rating, which hoops fans discredit as teammate reliant. Itís beyond Defensive +/- or Defensive Win Shares, which oh by the way he is statistically better at than guys like Jaren Jackson, Nic Claxton, Deandre Ayton. But again, you wouldnít believe stats like that. Even opponent FG%, he compares favorably with all those bigs who are considered good defenders. Not the best, but nowhere near the worse, not even bad.

    Once people get it in their head that a player is one thing, theyíre often reluctant to admit or acknowledge that the player could have improved. Joker just three seasons ago was a bad defender. Things really changed starting last season. If you want links to articles and youíll actually read them, I can provide them. From basketball heads more informed and more geeked out than me.

    Your own personal eye test really means nothing. Itís an opinion. A wrong opinion at that. Iíll give just one example why. Bigs like Embiid and Gobert play the pick-and-roll with drop coverage something like over 90% of the time. The PNR ballhandler uses the screen and takes a pretty much uncontested three and makes it, and most people arenít blaming Embiid or Gobert for the three pointer, unless itís someone like Curry and he made like 5 threes in a row in PNR. The last two seasons, Jokic, who used to play a lot of drop coverage in PNR, now hedges and then switches out on the perimeter on guards and wings. And the PNR ballhandler now has him in isolation and can drive by him for a lay-up. He WILL get blamed for getting beat off the dribble. But in reality, he just saved his team 1 point compared to Embiid and Gobert. Todayís game when teams are shooting threes one out of three field goal attempts or more and making them at a clip greater than ever before, blocked shots and altered shots in the paint matter less and less. Only a stubborn old head would put so much weight on big men blocking and altering shots as the primary factor in determining whether a big is a good defender or not. Thatís not todayís game.
    I watch the guy. On the defensive end, he watches on as people get easy layin buckets. He never offers a good contest. He gets burned in pick n rolls. He's not a good defensive player. Go watch his highlight reel. There isn't a defensive play on there. I don't need to look at stats and metrics to know that. Good defensive players are just noticeably good on that end. If you have to go do a bunch of cherry picking and look at all these saber metrics to prove to me that a player is good at defense, he's probably not that good at defense.

    You seem to think rim protection isn't important but it always will be. When you have a player making people think twice about layups, that has a huge mental effect on the other team and puts way more pressure on them to make outside shots. Especially in a playoff series.

    You're telling me that the numbers suggest Jokic to be a better defender than the guy who is probably going to win DPOY. That means those numbers probably aren't the best way to measure it.
    Last edited by Bill_Brasky; 02-28-2023 at 12:58 PM.

  17. #42
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    I think you have zero context. Your idea of propping up a team is the 6th seed and a first round bounce. I have higher standards. He hasn't been more impactful than Giannis as his team has won more than Jokic and Giannis actually plays defense. You have the same tired argument that people had for Westbrick when he won it. Well look at his team, they would be nothing without him. Yeah but they aren't much with him either.

    And to Frost, yeah I do care about MVPs. Who doesn't? Not everything is rings. If that were the case everybody would have Pippen ranked as the best SF of all time. But he isn't. or Draymond would be better than Barkley. But he isn't. And when you factor in it would be his 3rd MVP in a row then you have to start caring. But if you want to bring up Durant cheapening ring, that's ok. But to me, Lebron did that already years ago. Durant is a beta. Everybody knows it. But even beta Durant is a better player than Jokic and the fact this guy is gonna win his 3rd straight award is garbage.
    I provided it, your just spouted results without context. Jokic made the Nuggets about as good as they could possibly be, is a better defender than given credit for (terrible rim protector though) and comparing him to Westbrook is absurd.

    Jokic definitely been more impactful than Antetokounmpo in the regular season, you're just a typical casual reliant on counting stats and record instead of catch all advanced metrics, on-off, etc.

    James didn't cheapen the value of rings, Durant/Warriors and S bag did.

  18. #43
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    I watch the guy. On the defensive end, he watches on as people get easy layin buckets. He never offers a good contest. He gets burned in pick n rolls. He's not a good defensive player. Go watch his highlight reel. There isn't a defensive play on there. I don't need to look at stats and metrics to know that. Good defensive players are just noticeably good on that end. If you have to go do a bunch of cherry picking and look at all these saber metrics to prove to me that a player is good at defense, he's probably not that good at defense.

    You seem to think rim protection isn't important but it always will be. When you have a player making people think twice about layups, that has a huge mental effect on the other team and puts way more pressure on them to make outside shots. Especially in a playoff series.

    You're telling me that the numbers suggest Jokic to be a better defender than the guy who is probably going to win DPOY. That means those numbers probably aren't the best way to measure it.
    Your “I watched the guy” argument is compelling... Sounds like, “trust me, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.”

    Let’s get right into it. Jokic is 1st in the entire league in Defensive box plus minus. Entire league, regardless of position. He is 15th in the entire league in Defensive Rating. 10th in Defensive Win shares. Now in and of themselves, you can try to argue each stat is flawed or incomplete. But when you take them in totality, your argument starts to look silly. And then you look at the players ranked ahead and around him in each stat, and all of them are regarded as good, even great defenders. You start realizing that it’s not that those stats are flawed. It’s more likely your opinion is just wrong. Maybe one stat is a fluke that Jokic is ranked so high. But all three of those advanced defensive stats where all the other highly ranked players are perceived as good defenders? You really going to believe that? Like really, really? It’s not cherry picking stats. Cherry picking stats is using one stat (blocked shots) and using only that stat to argue a player is not good defensively.

    Jokic is not an elite run and jump athlete. Because of that, he’s not a shot blocker or a shot alterer at the rim. So how does he make up for it? By being a good team defender, one who actively switches, communicates with his teammates, and takes advantage of his anticipation skills and quick hands. Not quick physically, but quick in anticipation. Jokic is 20th in the league in steals per game, leads all centers in steals. Moreover, he’s 12th in the entire league in deflections (advanced stat on nba.com), again the top center in the category in which no other center is in the top 30. Gets in the passing lane, deflects passes, collects steals better than any other center in the league. To make up for his lack of rim protection. Plus, he’s 1st in Defensive rebounding percentage, 2nd to Giannis in Defensive rebounds per game. So when the other team misses, he closes out the defensive possession by securing the rebound better than anyone in the league. So there is that.

    We can get into opponent FG% too (also on nba.com), but that’s an entire other huge, long ass post itself...

    I’ll just also respond to the rim protection argument. It’s not that blocks or altered shots don’t matter at all. They’re just not nearly as important to good team defense now. If your team is really good offensively and you play good team defense, you don’t need great shot blocking, particularly helpside shot blocking. Golden State in their last three les has proven that. Boston this season has proven that. Do they have some shot blocking? Yeah, some. But their team defense doesn’t rely on it. They rely more on staying in front of their man as much as possible, switching all the way out to the three point line, and not helping or doubling.

    I feel like I’m trying to explain the Earth’s rotation to Kyrie Irving. The NBA, basketball in general, has changed. It’s not whether you like how the game is played today or not, whether you find it aesthetically pleasing, or despise all the open court three point chucking. You can hate it. But it’s not only reality that it’s how the game is played now, but it’s how winning basketball is played now. The top four teams in three point attempts per game are Golden State, Boston, Dallas, and Milwaukee. All of them take at least 45% of their field goal attempts from behind three. Three of them are legit le contenders, and the other, Dallas, has one of the best rated offenses in the league despite being one of the slowest in pace. That’s the game today. So contesting the three point line at all five positions, getting back in transition to the three point line are more important defensive factors than blocking and altering shots in the paint. Players today don’t give a at getting their shot blocked. There’s no mental edge to blocking shots. Teams now shoot so many threes that they’d rather a 7-footer camp in the lane, because that means with good ball movement, someone will get a wide open look from three. Pressure to hit outside shots? Players today will go 0-for-8 and they’re still going to chuck the next open three. Yeah, sure... a lot of pressure.

    You know why Jokic generally doesn’t attempt to contest at the rim? It’s because if you’re not a shot blocker and you try to contest some of these world class athletes trying to dunk at the rim, you’ll often just give up and-ones. It’d be the same as criticizing Tre Jones as a defender for him not blocking more shots. If you’re not a shotblocker, don’t try to be. But it’s hard for people who can’t look big picture to see that. Jokic trying to contest and block shots at the rim only gives the other team more opportunities to for extra points at the free throw line and piles up fouls on Denver’s most important player.

  19. #44
    5 Bill_Brasky's Avatar
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    Your ďI watched the guyĒ argument is compelling... Sounds like, ďtrust me, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.Ē

    Letís get right into it. Jokic is 1st in the entire league in Defensive box plus minus. Entire league, regardless of position. He is 15th in the entire league in Defensive Rating. 10th in Defensive Win shares. Now in and of themselves, you can try to argue each stat is flawed or incomplete. But when you take them in totality, your argument starts to look silly. And then you look at the players ranked ahead and around him in each stat, and all of them are regarded as good, even great defenders. You start realizing that itís not that those stats are flawed. Itís more likely your opinion is just wrong. Maybe one stat is a fluke that Jokic is ranked so high. But all three of those advanced defensive stats where all the other highly ranked players are perceived as good defenders? You really going to believe that? Like really, really? Itís not cherry picking stats. Cherry picking stats is using one stat (blocked shots) and using only that stat to argue a player is not good defensively.

    Jokic is not an elite run and jump athlete. Because of that, heís not a shot blocker or a shot alterer at the rim. So how does he make up for it? By being a good team defender, one who actively switches, communicates with his teammates, and takes advantage of his anticipation skills and quick hands. Not quick physically, but quick in anticipation. Jokic is 20th in the league in steals per game, leads all centers in steals. Moreover, heís 12th in the entire league in deflections (advanced stat on nba.com), again the top center in the category in which no other center is in the top 30. Gets in the passing lane, deflects passes, collects steals better than any other center in the league. To make up for his lack of rim protection. Plus, heís 1st in Defensive rebounding percentage, 2nd to Giannis in Defensive rebounds per game. So when the other team misses, he closes out the defensive possession by securing the rebound better than anyone in the league. So there is that.

    We can get into opponent FG% too (also on nba.com), but thatís an entire other huge, long ass post itself...

    Iíll just also respond to the rim protection argument. Itís not that blocks or altered shots donít matter at all. Theyíre just not nearly as important to good team defense now. If your team is really good offensively and you play good team defense, you donít need great shot blocking, particularly helpside shot blocking. Golden State in their last three les has proven that. Boston this season has proven that. Do they have some shot blocking? Yeah, some. But their team defense doesnít rely on it. They rely more on staying in front of their man as much as possible, switching all the way out to the three point line, and not helping or doubling.

    I feel like Iím trying to explain the Earthís rotation to Kyrie Irving. The NBA, basketball in general, has changed. Itís not whether you like how the game is played today or not, whether you find it aesthetically pleasing, or despise all the open court three point chucking. You can hate it. But itís not only reality that itís how the game is played now, but itís how winning basketball is played now. The top four teams in three point attempts per game are Golden State, Boston, Dallas, and Milwaukee. All of them take at least 45% of their field goal attempts from behind three. Three of them are legit le contenders, and the other, Dallas, has one of the best rated offenses in the league despite being one of the slowest in pace. Thatís the game today. So contesting the three point line at all five positions, getting back in transition to the three point line are more important defensive factors than blocking and altering shots in the paint. Players today donít give a at getting their shot blocked. Thereís no mental edge to blocking shots. Teams now shoot so many threes that theyíd rather a 7-footer camp in the lane, because that means with good ball movement, someone will get a wide open look from three. Pressure to hit outside shots? Players today will go 0-for-8 and theyíre still going to chuck the next open three. Yeah, sure... a lot of pressure.

    You know why Jokic generally doesnít attempt to contest at the rim? Itís because if youíre not a shot blocker and you try to contest some of these world class athletes trying to dunk at the rim, youíll often just give up and-ones. Itíd be the same as criticizing Tre Jones as a defender for him not blocking more shots. If youíre not a shotblocker, donít try to be. But itís hard for people who canít look big picture to see that. Jokic trying to contest and block shots at the rim only gives the other team more opportunities to for extra points at the free throw line and piles up fouls on Denverís most important player.
    Jesus christ. He's a good defender because he deflects a lot of passes? Wow. All these PER and BPM stats way overrate efficiency. According to those stats Jokic is also the GOAT. He is better than Michael Jordan and LeBron James according to those stats. I know not one soul that would argue that to be the case. Come on man, you're a Pistons fan. You know what a good defender is.

    And yeah your last paragraph sums it up. He doesn't have the athleticism to be a good defender. He can try really hard and be in good position all he wants but in a playoff series he is exposed. He is not an elite 2-way player that can carry a team to a championship and that's why he hasn't. Even in their deepest playoff run Jamal Murray outplayed him. Of course when he gets eliminated from the playoffs, again, i'm sure it will be "but he had the highest PER of any eliminated player ever! He's so disrespected!"

    I know the NBA has changed. The top 20 offenses in NBA history are all from the last 2 years. Another reason i do not take any of these stats seriously.
    Last edited by Bill_Brasky; 03-01-2023 at 11:37 AM.

  20. #45
    Veteran KobesAchilles's Avatar
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    I provided it, your just spouted results without context. Jokic made the Nuggets about as good as they could possibly be, is a better defender than given credit for (terrible rim protector though) and comparing him to Westbrook is absurd.

    Jokic definitely been more impactful than Antetokounmpo in the regular season, you're just a typical casual reliant on counting stats and record instead of catch all advanced metrics, on-off, etc.

    James didn't cheapen the value of rings, Durant/Warriors and S bag did.
    So the best they could be was the 6th seed. And we are handing out MVPs for that now? I did provide context. He shouldn’t have won last year. Your argument is the exact same one people used in defense of Westbrook. So laughing at the comparison is laughing at yourself. Even you admit he didn’t deserve mvp last year. Westbrook carried his team as far as they could go also buddy.

    Idgaf about advanced metrics if they don’t result in wins. By your own admittance DRob is the like 4th greatest player ever using advanced stats and advanced stats in the 90s say he should’ve won mvp 4 straight years. Winning has to count. You don’t play for advanced stats you play to win.

    And saying he’s better on defense than people give him credit for is stupid. He still sucks on defense and pic n roll defense which is the entire damn offense he is guarding. So you can defend Jokic all you want, praise him all you want.

    Bow down TD21 to the only ringless 3x MVP. Bow down to another second round exit. Bow down to a player taken out late in games bc they can’t defend. Bow down to advanced stats but not advanced winning. Bow down to the nerds handing out trophies by FedEx since the guy isn’t even in the postseason the receive it.

    On a side note Steve Nash will be very happy bc finally the media will have a new whipping boy on the worst MVPs.

  21. #46
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    So the best they could be was the 6th seed. And we are handing out MVPs for that now? I did provide context. He shouldnít have won last year. Your argument is the exact same one people used in defense of Westbrook. So laughing at the comparison is laughing at yourself. Even you admit he didnít deserve mvp last year. Westbrook carried his team as far as they could go also buddy.

    Idgaf about advanced metrics if they donít result in wins. By your own admittance DRob is the like 4th greatest player ever using advanced stats and advanced stats in the 90s say he shouldíve won mvp 4 straight years. Winning has to count. You donít play for advanced stats you play to win.

    And saying heís better on defense than people give him credit for is stupid. He still sucks on defense and pic n roll defense which is the entire damn offense he is guarding. So you can defend Jokic all you want, praise him all you want.

    Bow down TD21 to the only ringless 3x MVP. Bow down to another second round exit. Bow down to a player taken out late in games bc they canít defend. Bow down to advanced stats but not advanced winning. Bow down to the nerds handing out trophies by FedEx since the guy isnít even in the postseason the receive it.

    On a side note Steve Nash will be very happy bc finally the media will have a new whipping boy on the worst MVPs.
    Again leaving out context: Without their 2nd and 3rd/4th best player, in a deep conference.

    Westbrook is a disgraceful player who had narrative (sympathy/irrelevant triple doubles that he would blatantly seek out to the point where the team was complicit in his pursuit) surrounding him. Jokic is a historically great player.

    Typical old school fool mentality: If if didn't exist when you were young and/or you don't understand something, then naturally it must be stupid.

    If the highest impact player in the league could "only" lead them to 6th, what does that tell you? And why should an individual award be heavily dependent on record without context in a team sport?

    Except the numbers say the only area of defense he sucks at it protecting the rim. Of course, occasionally the elite pull up shooters will do damage or dance on him in space, but that happens against virtually everyone.

  22. #47
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Jokic definitely has a huge positive impact on his team

  23. #48
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    There are some people who just can't wrap their head around the fact that a slow, pudgy Euro who can't jump can be so good. Truth is the last two seasons in particular, Joker is legitimately putting up historically ridiculous NBA seasons. Like we've never seen before historic. And yes, greatest of all time type of seasons. It's the regular season. Criticism that he hasn't won in the playoffs is fair. But it doesn't take away from the greatness of what he's been doing in the regular season. That's what the league MVP is. A regular season award.

    Criticism about his defense is horse . No one plays great defense in the league anymore, certainly not most superstar players. Ask Giannis where his defense was last post season in the Boston series when Jayson Tatum was lighting the Bucks up. You can't play great defense anymore so why is it such a sticking point with Joker?

  24. #49
    5 Bill_Brasky's Avatar
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    There are some people who just can't wrap their head around the fact that a slow, pudgy Euro who can't jump can be so good. Truth is the last two seasons in particular, Joker is legitimately putting up historically ridiculous NBA seasons. Like we've never seen before historic. And yes, greatest of all time type of seasons. It's the regular season. Criticism that he hasn't won in the playoffs is fair. But it doesn't take away from the greatness of what he's been doing in the regular season. That's what the league MVP is. A regular season award.

    Criticism about his defense is horse . No one plays great defense in the league anymore, certainly not most superstar players. Ask Giannis where his defense was last post season in the Boston series when Jayson Tatum was lighting the Bucks up. You can't play great defense anymore so why is it such a sticking point with Joker?


    The best 20 offenses in NBA history have been from the last 2 seasons. So historic!

    Is Jokic making the chasedown block on Iguodala? Is he making the game saving block against Deandre Ayton? no.

    Yall clowns tryna put this dude in the same category as Wilt, Russell, Bird, is ing comical.

  25. #50
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    The best 20 offenses in NBA history have been from the last 2 seasons. So historic!

    Is Jokic making the chasedown block on Iguodala? Is he making the game saving block against Deandre Ayton? no.

    Yall clowns tryna put this dude in the same category as Wilt, Russell, Bird, is ing comical.
    What exactly are you trying to argue with the blocked shots? Most centers aren't getting chasedown blocks in transition. Embiid isn't. Gobert isn't. Are you going to criticize their defense because they wouldn't get a transition chasedown on Iguodala either? The Giannis block on Ayton was spectacular. There are only a handful of guys in the league that could have done that. Anthony Davis, Allen and Mobley, maybe Myles Turner. LeBron in his MVP prime isn't making that block on Ayton. So what's your point? Tayshaun Prince had one of the best chasedown blocks in playoff history. One of the best chasedown blocks of the last couple seasons was Maxi Kleber on Deaaron Fox. Do those blocks mean those players are great? MVP caliber guys? What's your point again?

    Btw, Joker has multiple game saving blocks under his belt, including one on a dunk attempt by Zion. And Iast season, old ass Al Horford gave Giannis an armpit face wash so hard, Giannis couldn't get up off the floor. I've seen bumass Kyle Kuzna rub his junk all over Joel Embiid's chin and chest.

    Wth is your point about blocked shots anyway?

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