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  1. #26
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    AD is not Duncan or KG. But I don’t think it’s wrong or disrespectful to compare him to either of them, even if he is not necessarily in the same class. Sometimes, people look at accomplishments, specifically championships and team success, and make that a significant separater between players, when most of us basketball junkies know and acknowledge that championships not only don’t simply belong to the one individual star player, but it requires an entire team and organizational effort. That’s why Bulls fans lament the pre Phil and Scottie Bulls. That’s why some (I’d like to say most but haters gonna hate) fans understand why LeBron took his talents to South Beach. That’s why damn near every other starter on Russell Celtics also made it to the Hall of Fame. It’s not a one-on-one tournament. It’s a team game. Championships are a team accomplishment.

    Fact is, based on talent and skill and natural gifts, Anthony Davis sits at the same table as Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. He doesn’t have the same team success as the franchise player, not the same MVP consideration or championship rings. But on just talent, he’s there. Championship pedigree, team success, sure, he gets moved down to the kiddie table. But as the franchise player, he was sleepwalking 28/12 and 2+ blocks. In the playoffs in New Orleans, he upped his production to 30 and 12 on 52%+ shooting. He was a stud. And then injuries and deferring to LeBron the last four years has gotten everyone thinking and saying he’s not that great. No, dude is still great. He’s just not Tim Duncan great, not even Kevin Garnett great. And that’s no shame.
    You can argue the same for Rasheed. Who, I still think, had all the talent to be an all time great. Guy was too unselfish.

  2. #27
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Agreed. AD is in the Dirk/KG/Mailman/C-Webb tier.
    No, just no for the bolded.

  3. #28
    Watching the collapse benefactor's Avatar
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    You can argue the same for Rasheed. Who, I still think, had all the talent to be an all time great. Guy was too unselfish.
    Rasheed Wallace is arguably a top three most talented big man ever to pick up a basketball. His brain was his problem

  4. #29
    5 Bill_Brasky's Avatar
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    The Lakers ran into a buzz saw. Each game was compe ive, and then Denver would put them away easily in the 4th quarter. The shots that Jokic was hitting was just like come on now.

    Still a Skunker either way.....

  5. #30
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    AD is not Duncan or KG. But I donít think itís wrong or disrespectful to compare him to either of them, even if he is not necessarily in the same class. Sometimes, people look at accomplishments, specifically championships and team success, and make that a significant separater between players, when most of us basketball junkies know and acknowledge that championships not only donít simply belong to the one individual star player, but it requires an entire team and organizational effort. Thatís why Bulls fans lament the pre Phil and Scottie Bulls. Thatís why some (Iíd like to say most but haters gonna hate) fans understand why LeBron took his talents to South Beach. Thatís why damn near every other starter on Russell Celtics also made it to the Hall of Fame. Itís not a one-on-one tournament. Itís a team game. Championships are a team accomplishment.

    Fact is, based on talent and skill and natural gifts, Anthony Davis sits at the same table as Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. He doesnít have the same team success as the franchise player, not the same MVP consideration or championship rings. But on just talent, heís there. Championship pedigree, team success, sure, he gets moved down to the kiddie table. But as the franchise player, he was sleepwalking 28/12 and 2+ blocks. In the playoffs in New Orleans, he upped his production to 30 and 12 on 52%+ shooting. He was a stud. And then injuries and deferring to LeBron the last four years has gotten everyone thinking and saying heís not that great. No, dude is still great. Heís just not Tim Duncan great, not even Kevin Garnett great. And thatís no shame.
    Probably the most inexplicably, incessantly criticized player extant. I don't get it for the life of me. More likeable than most of the divas today, often plays hurt and has tried to play through injuries, is willing to do the non glamor work and defer offensively (although the latter has become an issue) and generally raises his game in the playoffs.

    Of course his precious ppg fluctuates on a team with four perimeter creators, naturally plummeting his usage rate. He's also not back to the basket based and any big man who isn't can't be the hub of an offense on a championship contender. That makes him more Robinson and Garnett than Olajuwon and Duncan. What a crime.

  6. #31
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    ????

    He was visibly upset and dejected after missing the layup in Game 7 2013 at the end, but it's not like we got blown out or something, of the series or the game. It was just a horrifically frustrating way to end the one and only one opportunity to redeem ourselves from 6 and Duncan's miss over 6'7" Battier was the nail in the coffin.

    The only other argument you can make is the three years in between 1999 and 2003 years where Duncan three years in a row lost in the playoffs, the first time being in street clothes with the bum knee, the second time I'll admit he was a bit embarrassed but the Spurs were way outmatched that year; and the third time again showed that the Spurs needed to make significant changes on the roster to beat LA. Duncan was great in '02 but couldn't do it literally by himself and it was painfully obvious by that point David Robinson was beyond finished as a #2 option.
    Yeah, one of the series against the Lakers when they got swept I think, where Tim and really all the Spurs couldnít even put up a fight. Think they got blown out the last couple games because they were admitting defeat before the series was even really over. Tim was already the star. Admitting defeat before defeat happens is mentally weak.

    The Spurs-Pistons finals which most of us on these boards are intimately familiar. I believe it was after game 4 and the Pistons returned the favor of two lopsided wins. Itís vaguely in my memory that Pop was sitting next to and trying to console an inconsolable Tim because he had no answers after getting flustered by the Wallace brothers. Itís not as memorable to you because the Spurs ended up winning the series. Horry for game 5 and Manu in game 7 stepped up. Itís not that Tim didnít put up numbers, but he was clearly and visibly dejected after game 4 and needed his teammates to pick him up.

    Then there was the Phoenix series when Amare was giving Tim the business, raw no condom. I mean, Tim might as well have bent over on defense. Tim already a multiple time champ, two time MVP, all defensive guy still in his prime getting worked by a young buck. Again masked by the fact the Spurs won the series.

    And as you already mentioned the missed layup, so Iíll also mention the first round upset against the Grizz when an old man Duncan couldnít get it up to match up with old man game Zach Randolph. Tim had already relinquished keys to the team to Tony by that time, and age and wear and tear had gotten to him. And he couldnít do what some of the greats have been able to do late in their careers and find a way to bring it. I donít remember if he looked sad or dejected in that particular series loss, but itís an example of a series he could be criticized for not being mentally tough enough.

    Those instances are few and some masked by the fact they still won the series. But Tim still has had his tough performances and ones that could have been justifiably criticized. However, because he also won his share and stepped up in his share of big games and series, Spurs fans particularly arenít going to dwell on those.
    Last edited by JamStone; 05-25-2023 at 03:34 PM.

  7. #32
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    Agreed. AD is in the Lamar Odom/Antonio McDyess/Amare Stoudamire tier.
    FIFY

  8. #33
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    You can argue the same for Rasheed. Who, I still think, had all the talent to be an all time great. Guy was too unselfish.
    I think the difference is that Rasheed never cared if he was great or not. Even all the way back in high school, he asked to sit entire second halves of blowout games so his teammates could get more playing time and more touches. He’s always seemingly put team first. And I don’t know if it’s necessarily a bad thing. But he didn’t want to be great, he didn’t need to be great. And all time greats need to have at least a little bit of selfishness in order to be great.

    Sheed never put up regular seasons or playoff performances that Anthony Davis has. Anthony Davis has put up all NBA seasons. He’s put up great playoff numbers. Sheed was always content with playing second, third, or even fourth fiddle. Anthony Davis is closer to Tim Duncan and KG than he is to Sheed. And Sheed is closer to Kenyon Martin or Lamar Odom than is to Anthony Davis.

  9. #34
    5 Bill_Brasky's Avatar
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    Probably the most inexplicably, incessantly criticized player extant. I don't get it for the life of me. More likeable than most of the divas today, often plays hurt and has tried to play through injuries, is willing to do the non glamor work and defer offensively (although the latter has become an issue) and generally raises his game in the playoffs.

    Of course his precious ppg fluctuates on a team with four perimeter creators, naturally plummeting his usage rate. He's also not back to the basket based and any big man who isn't can't be the hub of an offense on a championship contender. That makes him more Robinson and Garnett than Olajuwon and Duncan. What a crime.
    I think for me it's the injury-proneness of AD that holds me back from saying he's on TD or Garnett's level. Those dudes just were a little more durable. But it's undeniable that when you watch AD play basketball, he is dominant every night on the defensive end, with a surprisingly good offensive game. Better than he gets credit for.

  10. #35
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    I think the difference is that Rasheed never cared if he was great or not. Even all the way back in high school, he asked to sit entire second halves of blowout games so his teammates could get more playing time and more touches. He’s always seemingly put team first. And I don’t know if it’s necessarily a bad thing. But he didn’t want to be great, he didn’t need to be great. And all time greats need to have at least a little bit of selfishness in order to be great.

    Sheed never put up regular seasons or playoff performances that Anthony Davis has. Anthony Davis has put up all NBA seasons. He’s put up great playoff numbers. Sheed was always content with playing second, third, or even fourth fiddle. Anthony Davis is closer to Tim Duncan and KG than he is to Sheed. And Sheed is closer to Kenyon Martin or Lamar Odom than is to Anthony Davis.
    Maybe I am romanticizing the past, but I think Sheed has always been closer to the KGs and Duncans than he was to the Odoms and Martins, he, to me, is in the same tier as C-Webb, who was a mighty fine player. But then, I love Sheed, still one of my non-Spurs player of all time. The way he could post up, shoot, dribble facilitate, and most of all defend was just amazing. I always felt he was a better defender than Ben Wallace, who was putting up those crazy block and rebound numbers, but Sheeds rotations and help defense, as well as his man to man defence was just divine.

    Most people hate him because he mouths off, but I felt he was more misunderstood than anything. His "both teams played hard" and "ball don't lie" phrases just put him in God like status.

  11. #36
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    Maybe I am romanticizing the past, but I think Sheed has always been closer to the KGs and Duncans than he was to the Odoms and Martins, he, to me, is in the same tier as C-Webb, who was a mighty fine player. But then, I love Sheed, still one of my non-Spurs player of all time. The way he could post up, shoot, dribble facilitate, and most of all defend was just amazing. I always felt he was a better defender than Ben Wallace, who was putting up those crazy block and rebound numbers, but Sheeds rotations and help defense, as well as his man to man defence was just divine.

    Most people hate him because he mouths off, but I felt he was more misunderstood than anything. His "both teams played hard" and "ball don't lie" phrases just put him in God like status.
    I guess perception is subjective. Just like MVP debates, depends what your criteria is.

    People differentiate Davis from Tim and KG because Davis couldnít lead successful teams like they did, not as the clear cut franchise player. Pretty similar difference, in fact, between Tim and KG because Timís team successes clearly outshined KGís. And this goes back to my point about team success is more than just credit to the individual franchise star. Winning, and winning rings, is a team accomplishment. Successful teams are more than just the franchise star.

    And so when I spoke about Davis being at the same table as Tim and KG when it comes to individual talent, I say that because of what he has done individually, with his production and what heís been able to do throughoit a season, season after season in his career. Rasheed may have had similar talent to KG and Tim, but he never produced at that level, certainly not consistently, not for seasons, not even for a single season. Never had a 20 PPG season or a 10 RPG season. No all NBA seasons, no all defensive teams. His one great statistical post season was a first round sweep by the Lakers where he played just three games. His actual individual production never met that elite talent level. I donít think you can say the same for Davis. Maybe you want more from him. Maybe you wish he was an alpha or a clutch closer. But dude was still putting up great seasons, great playoff performances. He was meeting his talent potential. Just not exceeding it, or maximizing it the way a Tim Duncan did for much of his career.

    I love Rasheed. Iím a Pistons fan. One of my favorite Pistons player all time. His jersey is the only Pistons jersey Iíve ever owned. Truth. But he was never in the class of Tim or KG. He could compete with them. Maybe even outplay them in a game. But he wasnít their peer. And he really didnít care that he wasnít. Dirk and CWebb were closer to Tim and KG than Sheed ever was.

    Thatís why I can comfortably believe and say Davis is closer to Tim and KG than Sheed is, and Sheed is closer to KMart and Odom than he is to Davis. The individual production proves that.

  12. #37
    Veteran LkrFan's Avatar
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  13. #38
    EAT IT!!! Kawhitstorm's Avatar
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    Davis is KG sans the durability & leadership

  14. #39
    Veteran LittleCriminal's Avatar
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    The Skunker

    2023


    Both games at home, Cully? At home?


    CROFL Thread Giuseppe Koolaid_Man lakaluva history2b @culburn316 21_Blessings 21_ ings Killakobe81 Bynumite


    Boiled down :::


    Duncan : 5


    the tired old bag Le : 4



    Let us proceed....
    Honestly how many chips would LJ have if ALLEN and Irving did not hit those Final shots?? Answer is 2.

  15. #40
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Honestly how many chips would LJ have if ALLEN and Irving did not hit those Final shots?? Answer is 2.
    yup

    To be fair though, less than a coin flip chance we win both games vs. Detroit if Big Shot Bob doesn't make that three in '05 and Detroit gets the rebound... THOUGH I will say that game probably should not have gone to OT because Rasheed Wallace should have been whistled for a technical foul (non-conduct) for calling timeout with 0.3 seconds on the clock and Detroit having had zero timeouts remaining. Manu would have been the FT shooter and despite being a career 78%, he was money that series.

    Specific shots turn tides... 2014 had multiple. Bobo's three in game 4 must-win @ Dallas to tie the series. Manu's three @ OKC in regulation, game 6..... 2003 also had some near misses, and more than just Small Shot Bob's three rattling out. Manu's three vs. Phoenix with a minute left in game 2, to increase the lead from 1 to 4, when we were already down 1-0 comes to mind. , Danny Ferry's three in the same game when we were on the verge of that game getting away from us midway thru the 4th. If the Suns win that game, they win the series. Tony Parker's threes and Manu's clutch shot at the end of the comeback game 3 @ the Nets with the series tied 1-1. Not sure the Spurs win in 6 if we go down 2-1. And of course the Jackson/Kerr/Manu three point barrage @ Dallas game 6... 2007 IMO the biggest near-miss was Bowen's three @ Phoenix in game 5, not sure we win the championship if he misses that shot.

    1999 IMO there weren't really any near misses. Sure if AJ misses that shot we probably lose to the Knicks, but it's still 3-2 headed back home and we would have beaten them handily back home at the Alamodome.
    Last edited by Millennial_Messiah; 05-26-2023 at 08:03 AM.

  16. #41
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    Yeah, one of the series against the Lakers when they got swept I think, where Tim and really all the Spurs couldn’t even put up a fight. Think they got blown out the last couple games because they were admitting defeat before the series was even really over. Tim was already the star. Admitting defeat before defeat happens is mentally weak.

    The Spurs-Pistons finals which most of us on these boards are intimately familiar. I believe it was after game 4 and the Pistons returned the favor of two lopsided wins. It’s vaguely in my memory that Pop was sitting next to and trying to console an inconsolable Tim because he had no answers after getting flustered by the Wallace brothers. It’s not as memorable to you because the Spurs ended up winning the series. Horry for game 5 and Manu in game 7 stepped up. It’s not that Tim didn’t put up numbers, but he was clearly and visibly dejected after game 4 and needed his teammates to pick him up.

    Then there was the Phoenix series when Amare was giving Tim the business, raw no condom. I mean, Tim might as well have bent over on defense. Tim already a multiple time champ, two time MVP, all defensive guy still in his prime getting worked by a young buck. Again masked by the fact the Spurs won the series.

    And as you already mentioned the missed layup, so I’ll also mention the first round upset against the Grizz when an old man Duncan couldn’t get it up to match up with old man game Zach Randolph. Tim had already relinquished keys to the team to Tony by that time, and age and wear and tear had gotten to him. And he couldn’t do what some of the greats have been able to do late in their careers and find a way to bring it. I don’t remember if he looked sad or dejected in that particular series loss, but it’s an example of a series he could be criticized for not being mentally tough enough.

    Those instances are few and some masked by the fact they still won the series. But Tim still has had his tough performances and ones that could have been justifiably criticized. However, because he also won his share and stepped up in his share of big games and series, Spurs fans particularly aren’t going to dwell on those.
    When the Spurs got swept, their second leading scorer was on the bench with a separated shoulder. When the Spurs best the Suns, the strategy was to let aamare score as much as he wanted.

    Don't rewrite Spurs history on a Spurs board, Jam.

  17. #42
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    When the Spurs got swept, their second leading scorer was on the bench with a separated shoulder. When the Spurs best the Suns, the strategy was to let aamare score as much as he wanted.

    Don't rewrite Spurs history on a Spurs board, Jam.
    Not rewriting history. More recalling history from a different, outside perspective other than home t am fan. Thereís bias on my part, just as thereís bias from yours.

    I wasnít criticizing Tim for getting swept, or losing. Everybody loses at some point. I was criticizing him giving up in games 3 and 4, conceding defeat. Came to play in the first two games. Knew they couldnít beat them that year. Sleepwalked in the next two games. You can give all the reasons in the world why they lost. The criticism is about not fighting and conceding defeat. LeBron just got swept. He didnít go out like Tim in his sweep.

    As for the Suns, lol. You would know better what the Spurs strategy was against the Suns. And if you say the plan was to make Amare beat them, Iíll take your word for it. But if youíre telling me Pop and Duncan discussed and wanted Amare to violate and undress Duncan to the point that it made it seem like Tim never learned or knew how to play defense, then Iím calling bull . Thatís not a strategy, even if the Spurs won the series.

  18. #43
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Not rewriting history. More recalling history from a different, outside perspective other than home t am fan. Thereís bias on my part, just as thereís bias from yours.

    I wasnít criticizing Tim for getting swept, or losing. Everybody loses at some point. I was criticizing him giving up in games 3 and 4, conceding defeat. Came to play in the first two games. Knew they couldnít beat them that year. Sleepwalked in the next two games. You can give all the reasons in the world why they lost. The criticism is about not fighting and conceding defeat. LeBron just got swept. He didnít go out like Tim in his sweep.

    As for the Suns, lol. You would know better what the Spurs strategy was against the Suns. And if you say the plan was to make Amare beat them, Iíll take your word for it. But if youíre telling me Pop and Duncan discussed and wanted Amare to violate and undress Duncan to the point that it made it seem like Tim never learned or knew how to play defense, then Iím calling bull . Thatís not a strategy, even if the Spurs won the series.
    Amare "violated" Nazr ing Mohammed, Horry, and occasionally Rasho... not Timmy. You're stupid if you think Pop would want Timmy getting in foul trouble considering prime Amare drew tons of fouls at the rim.

    When the Spurs got swept, their second leading scorer was on the bench with a separated shoulder. When the Spurs best the Suns, the strategy was to let [Stoudemire] score as much as he wanted.

    Don't rewrite Spurs history on a Spurs board, Jam.
    100 ing percent.

    Derek Anderson was no prime Manu, but he was quite literally the only thing we had on offense outside of the twin towers and our best perimeter defender as well even though he was no Bowen. Without him our backcourt collapsed into a mish mash of undersized wings and guards trying to play wing like Antonio Daniels, Terry Porter, etc. And AJ, stout as he was, couldn't shoot. It was lopsided and hardly Tim's fault.

  19. #44
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    As for the Suns, lol. You would know better what the Spurs strategy was against the Suns. And if you say the plan was to make Amare beat them, Iíll take your word for it. But if youíre telling me Pop and Duncan discussed and wanted Amare to violate and undress Duncan to the point that it made it seem like Tim never learned or knew how to play defense, then Iím calling bull . Thatís not a strategy, even if the Spurs won the series.
    The strategy was to contain Nash and stop the Sunsí 3-point barrage. That meant they couldnít collapse on Amare in the paint, and had to let him eat. It worked though ó the series was 4-1 and twice Phoenix didnít even get to 100.

  20. #45
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    You guys are giving reasons and excuses why Tim gave up against the Lakers. The excuses are legitimate. I’m not arguing against them. He still quit in games 3 and 4. That's the point. Doesn’t matter the reason or if you as fans feel he was justified. He came to play in the first two games, mailed it in the last two. The whole point was to say even the greatest players all time have had their moments of not just failure but of what some people criticize of Anthony Davis as mental weakness. That’s how this discussion came about. Idc about Sean Elliot or Derek Anderson or the rest of the roster being crap. Tim conceded defeat in that series when it wasn’t even close to being over. And it’s fine because he’s come up big so many other times, times that ended up in rings. This was to show that some of the criticisms of Anthony Davis being a mental midget is overly harsh. All players, even the greats, have their good days and bad days.

    As for the Suns series, whatever you want to say about that “strategy,” keep convincing yourself. They were trying to contain Nash to 23 points, 11 assists on 52% shooting? Strategy to contain their three point shooting when the Suns three main wing shooters shot 27-for-56 for 48% and as a team shot 41%? That strategy? Horse . They won the series because they could keep pace and ultimately outscore them. Their plan was to let Amare eat to contain Nash and the three point shooting and they were successful at neither. WTH kind of rose colored koolaid are you guys drinking?

  21. #46
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    The Spurs won those series. You're a bitter revisionist acting like Amare emasculated Tim Duncan in some way. The Suns lost. Amare's stats were empty.

  22. #47
    Veteran RC_Drunkford's Avatar
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    You guys are giving reasons and excuses why Tim gave up against the Lakers. The excuses are legitimate. I’m not arguing against them. He still quit in games 3 and 4. That's the point. Doesn’t matter the reason or if you as fans feel he was justified. He came to play in the first two games, mailed it in the last two. The whole point was to say even the greatest players all time have had their moments of not just failure but of what some people criticize of Anthony Davis as mental weakness. That’s how this discussion came about. Idc about Sean Elliot or Derek Anderson or the rest of the roster being crap. Tim conceded defeat in that series when it wasn’t even close to being over. And it’s fine because he’s come up big so many other times, times that ended up in rings. This was to show that some of the criticisms of Anthony Davis being a mental midget is overly harsh. All players, even the greats, have their good days and bad days.

    As for the Suns series, whatever you want to say about that “strategy,” keep convincing yourself. They were trying to contain Nash to 23 points, 11 assists on 52% shooting? Strategy to contain their three point shooting when the Suns three main wing shooters shot 27-for-56 for 48% and as a team shot 41%? That strategy? Horse . They won the series because they could keep pace and ultimately outscore them. Their plan was to let Amare eat to contain Nash and the three point shooting and they were successful at neither. WTH kind of rose colored koolaid are you guys drinking?
    somebody's really pissed about the 5th pick

  23. #48
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Look at the 3-point shots attempted. The Suns averaged 24 3-point attempts per game in 2004-05 at a 39.3% clip. The Spurs kept them well below that.

  24. #49
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    somebody's really pissed about the 5th pick
    Oh yeah. Salty about getting out tanked.

  25. #50
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Rasheed Wallace is arguably a top three most talented big man ever to pick up a basketball. His brain was his problem
    He was actually an above average intelligence man and a genuinely good person >90% of the time. He just had a short temper and a propensity to go off the deep end and throw temper tantrums when multiple things in a row didn't go his way. Had a compe ive spirit that came with rage and audacity. Liked the guy and would have been an awesome Spur. Different from say a Dennis Rodman who was just ed up in the head in all kinds of ways, or Ron Artest who was just a calculated sociopath 50% of the time and a fake nice guy the other 50%.

    Rasheed (not Ben) Wallace actually tried to stop the Malice at the Palace in the early stages when Artest, Jackson, Ben Wallace, and Derrick Coleman were fighting.

    You can argue the same for Rasheed. Who, I still think, had all the talent to be an all time great. Guy was too unselfish.
    Agreed. Too unselfish at times and had the tendency to chuck too many threes when the refs were in "let them play" mode (i.e. not calling fouls in the paint)... (and cost the team with untimely technical fouls).

    But 'Sheed rarely committed flagrant fouls and didn't do the off the court .

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