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Devin Booker came off the bench at Kentucky
will he be sent to the bench too?
You’re again falling into the trap I just talked about though. Sochan coming off the bench doesn’t mean he won’t spend time guarding the opposing team’s best players. Did Manu always play against other team’s bench players, or was he playing minutes all throughout the game with/against multiple units and especially in crunch time when it mattered most?
I actually don’t disagree that Keldon coming off the bench with Sochan starting could work well too. Just seems less likely IMO.
Devin Booker came off the bench at Kentucky
will he be sent to the bench too?
I agree with the Op’s starting lineup of Wemby, Collins, Jones, Johnson, Vassel. Starting is overrated. Even if he doesn’t start, Sochan may get more minutes than any of the starters outside of Victor. Crazy how young and talented this team is. Kind of reminds me of the young OKC team of Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka. The trick is, as they develop, knowing which ones to keep. I hope we continue to build through the draft and developing our youth. Buckle up, I think we’re in for a fun ride!
WHA?? Manu WAS absolutely feasting on the opposing team’s lesser players majority of the time. That is what made the old Spurs special.
Manu came off the bench two different times. The first time was because Michael Finley the bed if he wasn't starting, and Manu will be prepared to come in no matter what. The second time was because Danny Green was a weapon from three as well as an elite defender of superstars, who start. Manu could then be a weapon against second strings or gassed first units.
If you really need a sixth man, it should be Keldon because he will never give less effort coming off the bench, and you can unleash him on the opponent like they used to do with Manu.
I got no problem with messing with lineups to see who does the best in both roles. Jeremy's size and ability in the paint should go really well with Victor.
I see so many people on here stuck with the archaic idea NEEDING a labeled PG or traditional PG.
The game has changed.
I think the Spurs are aware of this as well ( this is why they didn’t address adding a traditional PG.
Im ALL IN behind Sochan playing “ PG”, and it’s not necessarily wanting him to pound the air out of the basketball ball initiation offense majority of possessions.
That simply does not exist anymore in todays NBA with how the ball moves combined with the level of talent across every position. Not even Tre was THAT in the half court last year. He played mostly off the ball in the half court. He only averaged 1 more PnR opportunity a game than Keldon last season. The Spurs had a more collective approach.
At the end of the day, the best players will garner most opportunities or possessions to make plays by nature and common sense.
The reason behind why I prefer Sochan playing at the “PG” position is to unlock tremendous matchup edges on the perimeter on both ends of the floor — where targeting will not exist for opposing teams. Defensive versatility will be at its optimal capacity where you can go to any coverage and have an edge. The length will narrow passing & penetration lanes — which can maximize deflections/rebound/stops— which maximizes fast breaks/semi transition/easy opportunities.
Offensively, the Spurs will have a size/length advantage at nearly every opportunity or wrinkle in a ball movement heavy style of offense in primary or secondary opportunities from all 3 levels — and all but 1 player is capable to manufacture offense from the perimeter.
Quality versatility & length with universal ball skills will be the new NBA & the Spurs will now have a personnel edge most teams do not have. They would be foolish not to exploit this unique edge.
The floor general concept being narrowed into the labeled "PG" position box is overstated in the modern game as ball skills are becoming universal across all positions.
Spurs are going to have a "center" (Wemby) and "power forward" (Sochan) that will be able to manufacture offense and be an initiator on the perimeter. That is an example of how ball skills have evolved.
Zach - Wemby - KJ- Dev - Sochan can play together and the latter 4 can share responsibilities & playmaking duties. A collective attack.
As for Keldon starting over Tre in the above scenario, I think it’s obvious he was asked to do too much last season and no one should take THAT Keldon and think that’s what he is. Roles and nuance are important here.
I think Keldon could realistically go back to shooting 40% from three with more uncontested spot up opportunities and less contested pull up 3’s. I also think he has more value as a paint attacker than Tre in secondary opportunities against a moving defense. Believe it or not, the Spurs averaged more points per possession with Keldon as a PNR initiator than Tre last season — despite the narrative surrounding Tre. So did Vassell and Branham fwiw.
On the defensive end, starting Keldon allows the Spurs more versatility unlocking Sochan as the defender of point of attack play makers — allowing Keldon to defend the weaker off ball wing without giving up a size advantage. With Tre, Tre is going to be stuck defending smaller POA playmakers and it puts Sochan strictly on an off ball wing. On top of this, with starting Tre , smart teams can target him with their wing initiators to create advantages. Starting Keldon eliminates the possibility for teams to target.
I think Pop will tinker w the starting lineup a lot and there are three lineups we’ll see fairly often:
Day 1 lineup:
C- Collins
PF - Wemby
SF - Keldon
SG - Vassell
PG - Tre
Alternate lineup:
Switch out Tre and start Sochan at PG
Wemby Load Managed lineup:
C - Collins
PF - Sochan
SF - Keldon
SG - Vassell
PG - Tre
I also think there is a solid chance that Branham cracks the starting lineup sometime this year and never looks back
Manu was a full time starter for exactly 2 seasons. Wasn’t always about Finley or green
Very cute. CIA Pop would put Wemby at PG in this line up.
don't think this will be the lineup, but what should be is:
1. jones
2. vassell
3. wemby
4. sochan
5. collins
Pop is definitely going to be conservative about the starting lineup to begin the season. So simply add Wemby at PF with Collins, Tre, Vassell and....Keldon, dammit. However Sochan replacing Keldon early and often to show how that works and Keldon on the bench.
The second team will probably never be a unit at the same time, but players will subs ute in based on starters conditioning, contribution that game so far, etc. I see 2nd team replacements as:
Center. Barlow before Massey based on his end of season performance and Sl showing while Massey shows he has recovered from injury. That's if they keep Barlow at center. I believe he could actually play down to SF he is so agile a defender.
PF: McDermott minutes will definitely be based on team goal for the season. He is a great shooter and can help a team win some games if the team is actually going for the playoffs. One of few actual veteran presences on roster may help his minutes a well, but are there many PF prospects that could be thrown in the fire? Mamu? Sochan? Barlow? All can play more than one position.
PG: Jones owns it, coming into the season. Graham at back up PG is ok and best available on the roster right now. I suppose you could throw Branham in there, but he is not ready for this role yet. Not a good floor manager or adequate defender. But as a third option, OK
SG: Vassell starts, assuming Vassell is completely healthy and back to form. Branham is the natural backup to Vassell. Branham got a lot of minutes as a rookie, but mostly due to roster shakeup and tanking IMO. I don't think he is ready to take the role of SG away from Vassell, but he might surprise us by end of the season. He definitely is a chucker, willing to keep putting them up even when missing lots of shots and that fearlessness is what you need at SG. So, pencil him in here, but he has to work on shot mechanics to keep release point higher and away from defender. Champ can fit in here as well. The problem is Champ is going to prove a better defender, rebounder and passer and his shooting looks terrific. How do you keep him down on the farm if he continues to do as well. (See SF.)
SF: Keldon is going to start the season as the starter here. However, We have several up-and-coming players who fit this position. I can see Champ and Sochan getting minutes and one of the other getting more minutes than Keldon.
We don't have enough information as to how any other players now on the roster could play fit into this team. Most of the rest are relatively unknown qualities or so raw that they really need to go to G League.
As I started moving players around and slotting them in positions it became apparent to me that this roster if full of players that can be moved in and out of the rotation at more than one position. Pop is a genius at trying to use matchups and rest times to utilize his players skill sets to the team's needs in game-to-game situations. It may be that some of these younger players will find their permanent place in the Spurs, or the NBA, as they develop those skill sets to their fullest potential. But I doubt Sochan will ever be a NBA PG full time as that doesn't seem to be his highest and best use. I wouldn't be surprised however to see a lot of different lineups and Pop using his bench all the way down to ten players on a regular basis.
Last edited by wildbill2u; 07-14-2023 at 12:36 PM.
spacing
Not coincidentally, the only 2 times he was selected an all-star.
Whether we want to admit it or not, starting or coming off the bench does make a difference, and not everybody is Manu to be unphased by it, tbh.
and its not a granted that wemby is going to be some incredible floor spacer off the bat. he's not a great 3pt shooter yet. if anything, he requires a lot of space to operate offensively since he likes the face up game as much as he does.
that's certainly the way they have been building the roster. Positionless basketball with multiple ball handlers. Would also be our strongest line up on paper, but one has to see if it works. I totally expect Pop to go full mad scientist this season and play all kind of crazy line ups, including this one. The thing that's missing there though is a player who's fast enough to get into the lane to suck in the defense.
This should be the proper starting line-up
Jones - PG. He is Spurs only true PG and necessary floor general like Avery did with DRob and Timmy
Vassell - SG. He is the better defender at point-of-attack and can shoot the ball anywhere on the court
Wemby - SF. He plays from the perimeter like KD and more effective as help defender than manning post vs Sochan.
Sochan - PF. Is a better post defender than Wemby (for now). Also help limit Wemby from getting pounded down low
Collins - C. Is the best option at Center position. He can post, defend the paint while also space with his outside shot.
Johnson - 6th man Manu role. He will bring havoc to the opposing 2nd unit with his incessant drive to the basket. He can close the game, with Sochan sliding to PG. Whether Keldon buys in will be crucial. But Manu was a Hofer playing exact role.
It’s unlikely starting line-up, but what makes sense.
Yea it was. Look at the rosters.
that doesnt explain him coming off the bench for roger mason jr and keith bogans
Victor can't play like a KD and show star efficiency, because he is slower and has a worse dribbling
And that's not to mention his shooting ability
He'll have to play inside a lot
In general, this whole topic with positions is meaningless
As Mowry said more than 10 years ago, there are no positions, there are about 15 roles in basketball, depending on the interpretation, their number may vary
Positions in general were introduced into the game for a simpler understanding of the principles of the game
There is a center, the tallest player, there is a physically developed forward who goes to push under the basket and is just a small-sized center, there is a more mobile forward who can play with the ball, a point guard and a second guard. And this was enough when basketball was two-point and everyone was on an equal footing with similar opportunities
But immediately after the sides adapted the three-point shot, all this lost any meaning, and the skill package came to the fore
Last edited by Vince Carter's ankle; 07-14-2023 at 02:49 PM.
Nice to see your alt, DAF86.
Keith Bogans was a three, but I'll give you Mason. Bogans never made a lick of sense on the Spurs in any role.
Spacing is only a problem if Sochan hasn’t improved his shooting. I’m gonna bet he has tbh
There's a politics forum? Who goes to a spurs forum to talk politics with a bunch of random idiots on the internet?
No team has ever had a lob threat like Victor. Spacing may not end up being as big a deal if you can dribble into the space and throw it to the front of the rim when they challenge you.
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