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  1. #51
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    San Antonio has a couple advantages over Austin -- willingness to soak the tourists through taxes and several downtownish sites that could be developed without too many headaches. The city of Austin is more likely to tell a sports franchise to go pound sand than give them subsidies and all the halfway practical downtown Austin sites disappeared in the past decade. Other municipalities might be eager to pay for the Spurs, but the suburban sites might be less than ideal.

  2. #52
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    The Alamo Dome disaster was caused by several bad decisions, possibly (or probably) caused by city politics and the influence of the "old 400" families that still want to control things and get their cut of the pie from city ventures.
    1. Henry Cisneros was either a megalomaniac or easily manipulated by the traditional power structure. His desire for a legacy was fed by the idea he could take two areas that were languishing and deteriorating and make them into showcases for the city and incidentally for Henry's legacy. Absolutely the worst idea was the development of the mall on the west side of the freeway from the old Farmer's Market/ Mi Tierra Restaurant. It had no tradition, no parking and little in the way of permanent activities or restaurants/shops to draw tourists. Certainly few San Antonians had it as a destination for shopping or entertainment. The rents were outsized for the demand and it became an albatross.

    2. Who was behind the Alamo Dome decisions that led to so many problems. Well, I'd say the old San Antonio family that owned the land on which their steel company operated for so many years. It was a closed and delapidated building that should have been available cheaply, considering pluses and minuses such as lack of room for adequate parking for such a large facility. And apparently no one even considered an environmental impact investigation and report since it was discovered after the sale that the site was contaminated with toxic metals and chemicals. How stupid was that?

    3. It was sold to the tax-paying public majority as a Necessary Large Stadium pre-requisite for an NFL team franchise, a brand new necessary home for the Spurs, a draw for our convention business, and a job creator. Whew, how could you vote against that package of benefits? Does that sound like the hard sell being put on the taxpayer with this new stadium being floated? Fool me once, my fault, fool me three times....?

    Well, the outcome after the extra costs for the toxic waste removal was not quite what was envisioned. It isn't very useful for a town that wants to go to their sports events by personal cars, but nevertheless the stadium was built with very limited parking for the great unwashed part of the public that pays for the Dome out of bonds and taxes...but of course the wealthy elites can always afford the special parking areas that are available on a permanent parking pass basis. The Spurs soon came back with a demand for a new state of the art basketball stadium because the Dome was a joke venue for basketball on a regular basis although you could certainly put more fans in there on rare occasions. For the most part, the temporary stands with a draped backdrop were all that was necessary to put paying fans into the allocated seating. There are some limited uses during the year for football games and some conventions, but it is largely a bad deal, sitting isolated across the freeway from the Convention Center and any of the developed areas in or near the old Hemisfair '68 area.

    So the Spurs came back with another demand for another state of the art building. What to do? Where to go? What is one of the last bastions of the social elite in San Antonio. The Rodeo. Wow, the rodeo coliseum was built many years ago and has all the faults of the architecture of that era. Lots of wealthy folks strut their stuff at the rodeo if they are part of the social butterfly set that uses it as a backdrop once a year. But who wanted to go to that old stadium anymore. A couple of wealthy families of the Rodeo Power Elite actually maintained 2nd homes on property adjacent to the Coliseum building and facilities and they might have had some input in leveraging their influence into the pick of the location. At any rate, IMO some of the power elites came forward with the idea to move the Spurs into a brand new arena on the old Coliseum grounds. Plenty of parking out there on a property that wasn't used but a few days a year. True, it was far from downtown and in a semi-industrial, low-rent residential area that wouldn't be developed for destination shopping or entertainment, but why not put the Spurs there? Why not, indeed?

    Now we are a few years into the rebuild for the Rodeo (and the Spurs of course) and some interests are floating the idea that a new stadium is necessary. After all the bad decisions made in the past regarding publicly funded stadiums and buildings , the first question has to be: Qui bono? Who stands to gain from any new stadium outside of the city's legitimate interests. If there starts to be a clamor for certain land assets that are "just a little outside of downtown or any currently developed destination, let's see who gains from the purchase of land assets outside of the normal profitable interest of Spur owners?

    This is getting long so I will desist for the present, but there are a lot of questions about the myths(?) of the need for a new Sports facility for San Antonio. "Fool me once..."

  3. #53
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    "Power elites" living next to Freeman Colosseum?

  4. #54
    Fan Since 1973 Twisted_Dawg's Avatar
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    @Wilbill2u, your treatise is interesting albeit long. So here are the Cliff notes:
    1. Red McCombs pushed Cisneros to get a football stadium built as he was extremely confident he could get a NFL expansion team. This of course never happened and apparently Red misjudged the power of Jerry Jones.

    2. The Spurs were pushing the city for a new arena and when an impasse occurred the Spurs threatened to leave town and were serious. At the 11th hour in rides Nelson Wolfe saying wait a minute boys, we got some land next to the Joe Freeman to build a new arena!

    3. If the Spurs don't get a new arena, they are 100% GONE. That's a fact.

  5. #55
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    The Alamo Dome disaster was caused by several bad decisions, possibly (or probably) caused by city politics and the influence of the "old 400" families that still want to control things and get their cut of the pie from city ventures.
    1. Henry Cisneros was either a megalomaniac or easily manipulated by the traditional power structure. His desire for a legacy was fed by the idea he could take two areas that were languishing and deteriorating and make them into showcases for the city and incidentally for Henry's legacy. Absolutely the worst idea was the development of the mall on the west side of the freeway from the old Farmer's Market/ Mi Tierra Restaurant. It had no tradition, no parking and little in the way of permanent activities or restaurants/shops to draw tourists. Certainly few San Antonians had it as a destination for shopping or entertainment. The rents were outsized for the demand and it became an albatross.

    2. Who was behind the Alamo Dome decisions that led to so many problems. Well, I'd say the old San Antonio family that owned the land on which their steel company operated for so many years. It was a closed and delapidated building that should have been available cheaply, considering pluses and minuses such as lack of room for adequate parking for such a large facility. And apparently no one even considered an environmental impact investigation and report since it was discovered after the sale that the site was contaminated with toxic metals and chemicals. How stupid was that?

    3. It was sold to the tax-paying public majority as a Necessary Large Stadium pre-requisite for an NFL team franchise, a brand new necessary home for the Spurs, a draw for our convention business, and a job creator. Whew, how could you vote against that package of benefits? Does that sound like the hard sell being put on the taxpayer with this new stadium being floated? Fool me once, my fault, fool me three times....?

    Well, the outcome after the extra costs for the toxic waste removal was not quite what was envisioned. It isn't very useful for a town that wants to go to their sports events by personal cars, but nevertheless the stadium was built with very limited parking for the great unwashed part of the public that pays for the Dome out of bonds and taxes...but of course the wealthy elites can always afford the special parking areas that are available on a permanent parking pass basis. The Spurs soon came back with a demand for a new state of the art basketball stadium because the Dome was a joke venue for basketball on a regular basis although you could certainly put more fans in there on rare occasions. For the most part, the temporary stands with a draped backdrop were all that was necessary to put paying fans into the allocated seating. There are some limited uses during the year for football games and some conventions, but it is largely a bad deal, sitting isolated across the freeway from the Convention Center and any of the developed areas in or near the old Hemisfair '68 area.

    So the Spurs came back with another demand for another state of the art building. What to do? Where to go? What is one of the last bastions of the social elite in San Antonio. The Rodeo. Wow, the rodeo coliseum was built many years ago and has all the faults of the architecture of that era. Lots of wealthy folks strut their stuff at the rodeo if they are part of the social butterfly set that uses it as a backdrop once a year. But who wanted to go to that old stadium anymore. A couple of wealthy families of the Rodeo Power Elite actually maintained 2nd homes on property adjacent to the Coliseum building and facilities and they might have had some input in leveraging their influence into the pick of the location. At any rate, IMO some of the power elites came forward with the idea to move the Spurs into a brand new arena on the old Coliseum grounds. Plenty of parking out there on a property that wasn't used but a few days a year. True, it was far from downtown and in a semi-industrial, low-rent residential area that wouldn't be developed for destination shopping or entertainment, but why not put the Spurs there? Why not, indeed?

    Now we are a few years into the rebuild for the Rodeo (and the Spurs of course) and some interests are floating the idea that a new stadium is necessary. After all the bad decisions made in the past regarding publicly funded stadiums and buildings , the first question has to be: Qui bono? Who stands to gain from any new stadium outside of the city's legitimate interests. If there starts to be a clamor for certain land assets that are "just a little outside of downtown or any currently developed destination, let's see who gains from the purchase of land assets outside of the normal profitable interest of Spur owners?

    This is getting long so I will desist for the present, but there are a lot of questions about the myths(?) of the need for a new Sports facility for San Antonio. "Fool me once..."

  6. #56
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    There is so much nonsense in this largely made-up history. The Alamodome “disaster”? After thirty years, it’s been a tremendous success and still counting. The Alamodome has events all the time.

    Ridiculous conspiracy theory balderdash about the power players. The Alamodome and its pay-for was passed on a direct voter referendum. Pure democracy in action.

    I don’t want to be too mean because I can see you put a lot of time and effort into your work of fiction.

  7. #57
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    Bottom line: if you want your team to stay, pony up. Sonics fans are likely super proud they stood strong.

  8. #58
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    "Power elites" living next to Freeman Colosseum?
    Sounds strange, but there were (are?) several homes built on Coliseum property on the West side by folks who are from out of town (south Texas ranch owners?). They use them whenever they are in San Antonio for the rodeo and probably on personal trips. I believe they are involved in some kind of Rodeo board positions that are an excuse for their livign quarters. I'm not saying they aren't working for the Rodeo over many years and perhaps they deserve some perks???

  9. #59
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    The Rodeo definitely has an old money, scam element to it.

  10. #60
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Sounds strange, but there were (are?) several homes built on Coliseum property on the West side by folks who are from out of town (south Texas ranch owners?). They use them whenever they are in San Antonio for the rodeo and probably on personal trips. I believe they are involved in some kind of Rodeo board positions that are an excuse for their livign quarters. I'm not saying they aren't working for the Rodeo over many years and perhaps they deserve some perks???
    If you're looking at who really benefitted from the AT&T Center, it was SS&E. I don't think any of the stakeholders live there.

  11. #61
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    As much as I detest Seattle I'll always give them credit for doing the right thing and saying no. A time when liberals had backbone.
    San Diego, Oakland, LA, and SF have all dome the same. It's why there was no LA NFL team for 20 years, why San Diego lost their NFL team, and why Oakland is almost certainly losing their MLB team.

  12. #62
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    Would be cool, and only fair for SA to get a pro baseball team. And football team for that matter, but Jerry Jobes has evidently had a lickdown on additional NFL teams coming to Texas for decades. Can't wait for that little demon to exit stage down

  13. #63
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    San Diego, Oakland, LA, and SF have all dome the same. It's why there was no LA NFL team for 20 years, why San Diego lost their NFL team, and why Oakland is almost certainly losing their MLB team.
    How much public funding were the Athletics asking for? I didn’t pay close attention, but the impression I got is that the City of Oakland and local activist groups placed lots of demands on the A’s for the privilege to build themselves a stadium with their own money. Like, why is it a baseball team’s responsibility to construct affordable housing? So after years of trying to jump through new hoop after new hoop they eventually just said it.

  14. #64
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    My understanding is that for all these “entertainment district” development plans anchored by the new stadium and/or arena, the public money is just to pay for infrastructure, which by no means is cheap. But the teams are building the venues with their own money. If SA is expected to put up public money for the venue itself, that’s out of the ordinary for recent projects.

  15. #65
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    There is so much nonsense in this largely made-up history. The Alamodome “disaster”? After thirty years, it’s been a tremendous success and still counting. The Alamodome has events all the time.

    Ridiculous conspiracy theory balderdash about the power players. The Alamodome and its pay-for was passed on a direct voter referendum. Pure democracy in action.

    I don’t want to be too mean because I can see you put a lot of time and effort into your work of fiction.
    You're also wrong. I lived in SA at the time and the whole thing was very scammy. Red McCombs lied about the city's chances of getting a team, and he and Cisneros were both making a lot of personal money for the deal. The venue was not what we were told it was going to be and oh, by the way, McCombs has lifetime concession rights to every event there.

    Spoiler: We didn't get an NFL team. In fact, we didn't get past the first elimination. We just got a terrible NBA arena with a big curtain and no parking, and had to pony up for a new arena out in the sticks a few years later. I was gone by then.

  16. #66
    Damn You Commies T Park's Avatar
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    hemisfair arena? I mean 3 Arenas for one city should be more than enough. Is there so much going on in San Antonio?
    hemisfair been gone a looooooong time

  17. #67
    Damn You Commies T Park's Avatar
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    Sounds strange, but there were (are?) several homes built on Coliseum property on the West side by folks who are from out of town (south Texas ranch owners?). They use them whenever they are in San Antonio for the rodeo and probably on personal trips. I believe they are involved in some kind of Rodeo board positions that are an excuse for their livign quarters. I'm not saying they aren't working for the Rodeo over many years and perhaps they deserve some perks???
    there are?

    lol all that's on the west side of that area is parking lot

  18. #68
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    You're also wrong. I lived in SA at the time and the whole thing was very scammy. Red McCombs lied about the city's chances of getting a team, and he and Cisneros were both making a lot of personal money for the deal. The venue was not what we were told it was going to be and oh, by the way, McCombs has lifetime concession rights to every event there.

    Spoiler: We didn't get an NFL team. In fact, we didn't get past the first elimination. We just got a terrible NBA arena with a big curtain and no parking, and had to pony up for a new arena out in the sticks a few years later. I was gone by then.
    I lived here too and voted in the election. No we didn’t get the team but the sole measure of the Alamodome’s success was not that. Thirty years later it is an extremely viable and successful venue. You call it a “disaster”. So disastrous it continues to get multi-million dollar renovations and attracts acts, shows, and events that we would never get without it.

  19. #69
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    There is so much nonsense in this largely made-up history. The Alamodome “disaster”? After thirty years, it’s been a tremendous success and still counting. The Alamodome has events all the time.

    Ridiculous conspiracy theory balderdash about the power players. The Alamodome and its pay-for was passed on a direct voter referendum. Pure democracy in action.

    I don’t want to be too mean because I can see you put a lot of time and effort into your work of fiction.
    Yes, the taxpayers were sold on both constructions, the Dome and the ATT Center, and voted for them. That doesn't mean that powerful business interests weren't involved in selling the propositions to the public as in the public's best interests.

  20. #70
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    Yes, the taxpayers were sold on both constructions, the Dome and the ATT Center, and voted for them. That doesn't mean that powerful business interests weren't involved in selling the propositions to the public as in the public's best interests.
    You’re not wrong but isn’t that pretty much every big election? Kind of how politics work.

  21. #71
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Would be cool, and only fair for SA to get a pro baseball team. And football team for that matter, but Jerry Jobes has evidently had a lickdown on additional NFL teams coming to Texas for decades. Can't wait for that little demon to exit stage down
    The baseball field is for prospective AAA team. We ain’t seeing MLB any more than we’re seeing NFL.

  22. #72
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    I lived here too and voted in the election. No we didn’t get the team but the sole measure of the Alamodome’s success was not that. Thirty years later it is an extremely viable and successful venue. You call it a “disaster”. So disastrous it continues to get multi-million dollar renovations and attracts acts, shows, and events that we would never get without it.
    I didn't call it a disaster. The city has done a great job of making lemonade with the venue, but it isn't a tremendous success, and it's not a conspiracy theory that it was a massive bait-and-switch for the taxpayers.

  23. #73
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    I don't know the infrastructure of San Antonio that well, but the idea sounds intriguing. I did live in SA during Hemisphere days and loved going downtown as a kid. My wife worked for the city for a long time and will have a better idea than me. I do like the feeling of optimism. It's almost like we won the lottery!

  24. #74
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    I didn't call it a disaster. The city has done a great job of making lemonade with the venue, but it isn't a tremendous success, and it's not a conspiracy theory that it was a massive bait-and-switch for the taxpayers.
    Well, technically, you did call it the “Alamodome disaster”. It’s clear to me now that you were speaking of the election itself rather than the dome’s life. So I call truce as I agree with you. Last I heard Cisneros was trying to sell us on the idea of a regional super duper International airport.

  25. #75
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    The baseball field is for prospective AAA team. We ain’t seeing MLB any more than we’re seeing NFL.
    Aware but SA is by far the largest city without a professional baseball and football team. If they can demonstrate a pre-existing plan for an NFL or MLB ready stadium plan in a really cool downtown location, you'd almost think it would just be a matter of time before one was awarded.

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