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Series are small sample sizes though. When I say peak, typically it's a half decade or so give or take.
I can't really consider the East weak in 05-06 when the Pistons were a 64 win team with four allstars who had just come one Robert Horry shot from being the two time defending champions against the two main powers of the west from that era. Seems like revisionist history to discount that team and thus Wade's accomplishment in leading the Heat past them.
Series are small sample sizes though. When I say peak, typically it's a half decade or so give or take.
I wouldn't compare Harden to Wade other than their ability to get to the charity stripe.
Fair enough if you believe that. And the Pistons were very much a formidable team back then, obviously I recall. The Pistons were a challenge for the Heat. And Miami and Wade deserve credit for beating them. However, singling out one team does not refute the claim.
2005-06 Eastern Conference had 15 teams. Among them that season, three teams won 50 games or more that season, the aforementioned Heat and Pistons, and LeBron’s Cavs. Two other EC teams had winning records, the Kidd-Vince Nets and Gilbert-Jamison-Caron Wizards. 5 of 15 teams with records over .500. Should I switch adverbs from terribly to depressingly?
Most le teams don't take out a 64 win team on the route to winning it all and they also beat a 49 win Nets team in the previous round. I don't see that as an easy route to the Finals at all. Yeah the Bulls team they faced in the first round sucked but that's kind of par for the course a lot of the time to have an easy first round matchup.
Harden has a large sample size in the playoffs and has been mostly unimpressive in them with some of the worst chokes we have ever seen. All the Spurs had to do to beat him in his prime was play the hands up don't shoot defense and they skull ed him at home with Leonard in street clothes. Meanwhile you gotta give Wade some credit for having a big Game 7 to eliminate the Spurs in the 2013 Finals too. Gotta factor in that Wade has some injury problems in the mid to late 2000s too. But having a peak where you lead a team to a le in such impressive fashion, especially against the compe ion he faced in 06, is huge to me. Same reason I'd take Bill Walton over Patrick Ewing for example despite Walton only having two healthy seasons.
You took out four seasons with Lebron, the results of which were still a winning record, and then said taking away the years with Shaq make him a loser. That is an extremely blatant case of twisting stats while ignoring what he did as a player who stepped up and carried the franchise that drafted him, without demanding trades, resting on defense or team hopping.
Nobody who is starting a franchise and wants to win takes Harden over Wade.
this is as re ed as asking Curry or Westbrick?... I guess Teague is pretty re ed.
Teague is an idiot
It’s sort of strange, ironic on this board full of Spurs fans that for pretty much its entire existence hated, criticized, qualified, and caveated Kobe’s success because he played second banana to Shaq and “needed” MVPau to carry him to his 4th and 5th les, and also destroyed Kevin Durant for joining the 73 win Warriors in order to get his rings BUT now find it twisting facts or stats by doing the same thing to Wade. Players you despise, it’s cool to qualify their success. A player you somewhat respect, all of a sudden it’s crazy to qualify the winning by separating when they coattailed or stacked the deck.
I think there’s merit to criticizing Kobe and Durant for their career successes being at least partly dependent on the situations they were in with other great players. I think it’s even fair to question them being able to win any rings at all had they not been in those situations and on those teams. And I think the very same thing about Wade without LeBron or Shaq. And if you’re being fair and unbiased, without LeBron and Shaq, Wade would likely (nothing is absolute in hypotheticals) have zero rings and be viewed more like Dominique or T-Mac than being a top 3-5 SG ever.
Again, fair enough. The East was weak. But the 2006 Miami Heat le run in the playoffs was not an “easy route” to the playoffs. I’ll stand that Wade and the Heat don’t get out of the East without Shaq. They likely don’t get out of the first round without him.
The issue is harden had Durant westbrook Chris Paul embiid and still didn’t get it done. His game is extremely ball dominant and when he doesn’t have the ball he doesn’t produce. Wade is like that to a degree but he still found success being 2nd banana to Lebron.
For the record I agree with you. It’s much closer than people make it out to be. I’d put them on the same tier but wade a little higher.
I get it, but I still think Harden probably had the higher extended peak. He was about as good as it gets as an offensive load carrier in the regular season, which encompasses significantly more games obviously.
Of course, Wade getting his torn meniscus snipped instead of repaired in college cut his prime and career short, so maybe it'd have been different otherwise.
All you gotta do is not send Harden to the free throw line and he folds. When I think Harden, this is the signature game that comes to mind.
In a long regular season when other players can be disinterested he used to put up video game numbers but ultimately you're judged by what you do in the playoffs and Harden has truly hideous performances in the biggest playoff games. Even as a supporting player in OKC he was awful in the 2012 Finals. Playoff failure is his legacy.
Pretty sure people here are more than willing to put Kobe and Wade together in the all time rankings.
I think it's more like asking Chris Paul or Chauncey Billups.
Wade for his 2006 run alone.
Could also say Wade for Harden's 2017 run alone tbh
For the record, in my first post, I said I’d lean Wade because I like his game better. I just feel it’s actually close and a tough decision. The points I bring up about Wade without LeBron and Shaq are not so much to disparage Wade. It’s my reason why I think it’s closer than some some have contended it is. I don’t think there’s some huge gulf between the two because Wade had one great le run with a FMVP. If that’s what makes it a no-brainer and it isn’t even close for some, then cool, people can feel that way. What Wade did the other have of his career without playing next to a top 10 player in the history of the game gives me a little more context to believe it’s close.
Ok that’s cool. Don’t see how that has anything to do with what I said.
The reason people here bag on Kobe is Kobestan puts him in the top 10. Riding Shaq's coattails snuffs that out. He can sit with Wade though. That's how it fits. Harden isn't in the same conversation. James has never been on that level despite specific teams allowing him the lion's share of touches.
I’m a big Kobe fan but I don’t give a damn where anyone ranks him. I personally put him somewhere in the bottom of the top 10, maybe 8-10, but have zero issue if someone ranks him outside the top 10. You want to put him outside of the top 10, ok. You want to put him 12 or 25 or 58 or outside the top 100 completely, cool. Rankings are all subjective. What’s funny to me is that Spurs fans on these boards try to paint Kobe fans or Laker fans as delusional and unreasonable when it comes to Kobe. But Kobe fans aren’t the only ones that consider Kobe top 10. , a lot of basketball heads have Kobe in the top 5 and in the discussion as goat. NBA players, past and present, even rivals of Kobe do that. Former coaches, NBA analysts, basketball nerds. From Charles to Jamal Crawford to Kevin Durant to the guy we’re talking about in this thread Dwyane Wade to JVG to Coach K, ranking Kobe in the top 10 isn’t a Kobe homer take. It’s not only Kobestans. It’s actually a consensus majority basketball take.
Gregg freaking Popovich the man himself said Kobe belongs with the handful of greats like Jordan, Magic and Bird. The best one though, the one Spurs fans should really love, is Bruce Bowen. Back in 2020 when ESPN did their rankings of the greatest NBA player of all time, and they ranked Kobe 9th, sandwiched between Tim Duncan at #8 and Shaq at #10. On air, in response, Bruce gave his top 5, ranking Kobe #2 and Tim #5. Bruce Bowen. Your Bruce Bowen. Not a Kobestan. The guy who guarded Kobe, battled Kobe. The guy who witnessed Tim Duncan daily in practice and in games. Kobe #2. Timmy #5.
Maybe, just maybe, Kobestans aren’t the ones that are overly biased, let alone delusional.
Maybe marketing works.
Returning to the point I was making, the reason people use caveats for greatness is 1st the claim of greatness. No one is saying Wade is all time great, if they were you'd see caveats regarding Shaq, Zo, Lebron, Bosh, Allen, etc. Harden isn't in the same conversation with Wade, mostly because James didn't play defense most of the time and laughably so. James' offense was on point, for sure, but the game happens at both ends. Wade has always been a good defender. Harden isn't respected for that reason.
Let's go JamStone
Haven't read yet but I love the commitment
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