NBA: DWade or Harden?

[JamStone]

Returning to the point I was making, the reason people use caveats for greatness is 1st the claim of greatness. No one is saying Wade is all time great, if they were you'd see caveats regarding Shaq, Zo, Lebron, Bosh, Allen, etc. Harden isn't in the same conversation with Wade, mostly because James didn't play defense most of the time and laughably so. James' offense was on point, for sure, but the game happens at both ends. Wade has always been a good defender. Harden isn't respected for that reason.

But defense wasn’t even mentioned but once in this thread before your post. Most of the arguments initially were that Wade led a team to a le as the #1 while Harden has choked in the playoffs multiple times. You’re changing the argument, moving the goal posts. Defense is an easy and generic argument, and generally a convenient cop out when used. No one takes Magic out of the top 10 because he was a bad defender. No one qualifies Stephen Curry’s greatness with a “but his defense.” And we watched in real time the past couple years and this post season especially how the criticism of lack of defense of a great player is pretty much bull with the Joker-Embiid debates and Joker leading his team to a le with his “terrible defense.” And while Harden was never a good individual defender, particularly in space and in isolation, he did make up for it by being a good guard post defender when he switched on bigs and being a very good defensive rebounder especially for a guard. Doesn’t make him as good a defender as Wade. But it closes the gap quite a bit.

Right or wrong, the vast majority of greatest players rankings are based on offensive ability, individual offensive statistics, and the player’s ability to help his team win games, and ultimately rings. Not defense. You bring up defense like it’s some absolute decider. Let’s be real. It’s not. It’s offensive production. It’s winning.

The truth is if you line up the careers of Dwyane Wade and James Harden and you compare statistical production (both standard stats and deeper advanced stats) and team record over their respective careers, they’re extremely similar. Wade’s playoff team record is better, not surprisingly as my “he played with LeBron” argument highlighted. But the difference still isn’t lopsided. Wade has a FMVP, Harden a League MVP. But the rest of their careers are very similar.

A “but his defense” argument is bull imo.

[TD 21]

Maybe marketing works.

You might just call them brainwashed masses . . . I remember Raja Bell once speaking about how so much of the discourse is basically playing into what they know the league wants to the point where he'd always say Bryant when asked who was the most difficult for him to guard, but that it was actually Ginobili due to how unorthodox he is.

ESPN does it themselves. On air, Bryant (and Curry) are the most coddled/mythologized players and Duncan is largely ignored, but every time they update their GOAT rankings online, even they have Duncan ahead of Bryant.

[Tyronn Lue]

But defense wasn’t even mentioned but once in this thread before your post. Most of the arguments initially were that Wade led a team to a le as the #1 while Harden has choked in the playoffs multiple times. You’re changing the argument, moving the goal posts. Defense is an easy and generic argument, and generally a convenient cop out when used. No one takes Magic out of the top 10 because he was a bad defender. No one qualifies Stephen Curry’s greatness with a “but his defense.” And we watched in real time the past couple years and this post season especially how the criticism of lack of defense of a great player is pretty much bull with the Joker-Embiid debates and Joker leading his team to a le with his “terrible defense.” And while Harden was never a good individual defender, particularly in space and in isolation, he did make up for it by being a good guard post defender when he switched on bigs and being a very good defensive rebounder especially for a guard. Doesn’t make him as good a defender as Wade. But it closes the gap quite a bit.

Right or wrong, the vast majority of greatest players rankings are based on offensive ability, individual offensive statistics, and the player’s ability to help his team win games, and ultimately rings. Not defense. You bring up defense like it’s some absolute decider. Let’s be real. It’s not. It’s offensive production. It’s winning.

The truth is if you line up the careers of Dwyane Wade and James Harden and you compare statistical production (both standard stats and deeper advanced stats) and team record over their respective careers, they’re extremely similar. Wade’s playoff team record is better, not surprisingly as my “he played with LeBron” argument highlighted. But the difference still isn’t lopsided. Wade has a FMVP, Harden a League MVP. But the rest of their careers are very similar.

A “but his defense” argument is bull imo.

This in bold is enough to make the Wade vs Harden debate silly. It's not a Wade vs Kobe debate, you seem to want to make it so. In my previous response I was ignoring your tangents to get back to the Wade vs Harden question. I already told you why the Kobe tangent wasn't relevant. I have no idea why you're dragging so many other names in.

If your claim of offense is correct, Karl Malone>>>Tim Duncan.

[FkLA]

Teague is an idiot

Stop being such a female about Harden leaving Houston, dude.

I remember you claiming he should've won 3 MVPs in a row when he was still in Houston. He abandons y'all and now he's a lesser player. I hate what Kawhi did to the Spurs but I can't deny his greatness (when healthy).

[JamStone]

This in bold is enough to make the Wade vs Harden debate silly. It's not a Wade vs Kobe debate, you seem to want to make it so. In my previous response I was ignoring your tangents to get back to the Wade vs Harden question. I already told you why the Kobe tangent wasn't relevant. I have no idea why you're dragging so many other names in.

If your claim of offense is correct, Karl Malone>>>Tim Duncan.

That’s fine if you believe that. But it’s absolutely a debatable argument. My points have been to argue that one Finals MVP run does not simply decide it. Just as Cedric Maxwell’s Finals MVP cannot make an argument he was better than Dominique, or Andre Iguodala’s Finals MVP doesn’t make him better than Vince. Ignoring everything else and the context of Wade’s 2006 Finals run is short sighted and small picture. Wade doesn’t get out of the East without Shaq and even many Spurs fans on these boards have argued that there felt like a league manipulated and manufactured Finals outcome with all the free throws in the 2006 Finals.

I only brought up Kobe to show the hypocrisy in arguments on these boards. I wasn’t dragging him in for any other reason. It’s just drawing a parallel to make a point. Why are you talking about me going on tangents when your last post was all tangental to the discussion?

I have other examples but I’ll “drag” only one more. Chauncey Billups’ 2004 Finals run and I believe 6 straight deep conference final runs did NOT make him a better player than Jason Kidd. I’m a Pistons fan. Loved the Going to Work Pistons. Loved Chauncey. Jason Kidd was the better player. One Finals run as “the guy” is not enough to make a discussion like this “silly.” It ignores too much else.

As for the last part, Karl Malone was great. And for a long time before the likes of Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, he was viewed as the goat PF. There are no caveats or asterisks to Duncan’s championship or MVPs the way I believe there are with Wade’s. If there were, then maybe there could be a debate. You’re not following the discussion properly if that’s how you’re trying to spin my arguments.

[Tyronn Lue]

That’s fine if you believe that. But it’s absolutely a debatable argument. My points have been to argue that one Finals MVP run does not simply decide it. Just as Cedric Maxwell’s Finals MVP cannot make an argument he was better than Dominique, or Andre Iguodala’s Finals MVP doesn’t make him better than Vince. Ignoring everything else and the context of Wade’s 2006 Finals run is short sighted and small picture. Wade doesn’t get out of the East without Shaq and even many Spurs fans on these boards have argued that there felt like a league manipulated and manufactured Finals outcome with all the free throws in the 2006 Finals.

I only brought up Kobe to show the hypocrisy in arguments on these boards. I wasn’t dragging him in for any other reason. It’s just drawing a parallel to make a point. Why are you talking about me going on tangents when your last post was all tangental to the discussion?

I have other examples but I’ll “drag” only one more. Chauncey Billups’ 2004 Finals run and I believe 6 straight deep conference final runs did NOT make him a better player than Jason Kidd. I’m a Pistons fan. Loved the Going to Work Pistons. Loved Chauncey. Jason Kidd was the better player. One Finals run as “the guy” is not enough to make a discussion like this “silly.” It ignores too much else.

As for the last part, Karl Malone was great. And for a long time before the likes of Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, he was viewed as the goat PF. There are no caveats or asterisks to Duncan’s championship or MVPs the way I believe there are with Wade’s. If there were, then maybe there could be a debate. You’re not following the discussion properly if that’s how you’re trying to spin my arguments.

I don't feel like you've offered anything to support Harden in the debate. Instead you've offered other irrelevant comparisons. Why is Harden as good as if not better than Wade?

[lefty]

When you think about it, even thought hey are both SG's, it's still comparing apples to oranges.

Wade was a score first athletic SG.

Harden is actually a combo guard. he can score and make plays for others.


- Defensively I'm guessing Wade was better; at least on the perimeter; TBH I don't remember how good he was but he has to be better than Harden in that department, Harden is actually pretty decent when defending bigger dudes in the post... so defense is a wash

- les: eeeeh... Wade has rings but 2006 was a Christmas gift from Stern, combined with the Mavs' multiple brain farts
and the other 2 les Lebron was the leader; also, Wade started to decline rather quickly, around 2011-2012.... he didn't exactly have a long prime, and let's not forget he played for the Cavs and the Bulls as a TOSB

Offensively I think Harden is the better player; yes he is a flopper but that doesn't take anything way from his offensive skills
Wade didn't flop as much but he had an all time food stamps record in his first Finals
Defense is a wash



So who gives a tbh

[Texas_Ranger]

I think it's more like asking Chris Paul or Chauncey Billups.

yes, if Billups had 3 rings.

[resistanze]

For me Wade was clearly better. Wade's 2006 run even if you remove the ring, is better than anything Harden has done in his playoff career

They have similar regular season accolades but Harden has an MVP and a higher scoring peak..but that's about it...
- Wade was lead scorer in the 2006 championship playoff run by over 10 ppg over Shaq ... he was clearly the #1
- Wade was the 1a option in the playoff run in LeBron's first year in Miami and wins FMVP if LeBron chokes even a little bit less
- Defensively...not even close
- Wade's stats in the playoffs stay pretty much the same (or a bit better) while Harden does the Malone thing and regresses in the playoffs..with some all-time horrific performances
- If having a declining Shaq and having Lebron leads to 3 rings for Wade...Having KD (twice), Westbrook, Kyrie, Chris Paul, and Embiid as teammates should lead to at least one ring? More than one finals appearance that happened when Harden was a sixth man?

[baseline bum]

For me Wade was clearly better. Wade's 2006 run even if you remove the ring, is better than anything Harden has done in his playoff career

They have similar regular season accolades but Harden has an MVP and a higher scoring peak..but that's about it...
- Wade was lead scorer in the 2006 championship playoff run by over 10 ppg over Shaq ... he was clearly the #1
- Wade was the 1a option in the playoff run in LeBron's first year in Miami and wins FMVP if LeBron chokes even a little bit less
- Defensively...not even close
- Wade's stats in the playoffs stay pretty much the same (or a bit better) while Harden does the Malone thing and regresses in the playoffs..with some all-time horrific performances
- If having a declining Shaq and having Lebron leads to 3 rings for Wade...Having KD (twice), Westbrook, Kyrie, Chris Paul, and Embiid as teammates should lead to at least one ring? More than one finals appearance that happened when Harden was a sixth man?

Harden has the Malone act down 95%; namely, always completely ting the bed in the elimination game. Can't give him 100% though since I have never seen his season end on an 8 point game in what was supposed to be his year to win a le like we saw with Warm Karl.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...905270POR.html

[resistanze]

Harden has the Malone act down 95%; namely, always completely ting the bed in the elimination game. Can't give him 100% though since I have never seen his season end on an 8 point game in what was supposed to be his year to win a le like we saw with Warm Karl.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...905270POR.html

That pedo is the most overrated g0t in NBA history

But I hope that 5% is for molesting children, because Harden's 2015 (2-11 FG, 14PTS, 12 TO) and 2017 (no Kawhi or Parker, 39 point blowout, 2-11FG, 10PTS, 6 TO) elimination games have to be on par.

[baseline bum]

That pedo is the most overrated g0t in NBA history

But I hope that 5% is for molesting children, because Harden's 2015 (2-11 FG, 14PTS, 12 TO) and 2017 (no Kawhi or Parker, 39 point blowout, 2-11FG, 10PTS, 6 TO) elimination games have to be on par.

The main difference is 1999 was supposed to be Malone's year to ring. All you heard was he'd have two rings if there was no Jordan and this was his chance and instead he got bent over by Hall of Fame franchise bigman Brian Grant.

[Tyronn Lue]

When you think about it, even thought hey are both SG's, it's still comparing apples to oranges.

Wade was a score first athletic SG.

Harden is actually a combo guard. he can score and make plays for others.


- Defensively I'm guessing Wade was better; at least on the perimeter; TBH I don't remember how good he was but he has to be better than Harden in that department, Harden is actually pretty decent when defending bigger dudes in the post... so defense is a wash

- les: eeeeh... Wade has rings but 2006 was a Christmas gift from Stern, combined with the Mavs' multiple brain farts
and the other 2 les Lebron was the leader; also, Wade started to decline rather quickly, around 2011-2012.... he didn't exactly have a long prime, and let's not forget he played for the Cavs and the Bulls as a TOSB

Offensively I think Harden is the better player; yes he is a flopper but that doesn't take anything way from his offensive skills
Wade didn't flop as much but he had an all time food stamps record in his first Finals
Defense is a wash



So who gives a tbh

You lost me at "defense is a wash"

But yeah, no one gives a

[JamStone]

I don't feel like you've offered anything to support Harden in the debate. Instead you've offered other irrelevant comparisons. Why is Harden as good as if not better than Wade?

Similar career statistics, similar career win%. They’re comparable players. It’s not opinion. Statistically, they are very similar. It also helps to make almost an apples to apples comparison because they played a similar amount of games in both their regular season and post season careers, and their careers overlapped about a decade, so roughly the same era.

James Harden regular season career:
1000 games 651 wins, 349 losses (.651 win percentage)
24.7 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 7.0 APG
.442 FG, .363 3P, .609 TS%
24.4 PER, 158 WS, .218 WS/48, 6.7 BPM, 76 VORP

Dwyane Wade regular season career:
1054 games, 611 wins, 443 losses (.580 win percentage)
22.0 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 5.4 APG
.480 FG, .293 3P, .549 TS%
23.5 PER, 120.7 WS, .162 WS/48, 5.0 BPM, 6.8 VORP

James Harden post season career:
160 games, 85 wins, 75 losses (.531 win percentage)
22.7 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 6.3 APG
.424 FG, .338 3P, .585 TS%
22.0 PER, 20.6 WS, .172 WS/48, 6.2 BPM, 11.9 VORP

Dwyane Wade post season career:
177 games, 105 wins, 72 losses (.593 win percentage)
22.3 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.9 APG
.474 FG, .338 3P, .549 TS%
22.4 PER, 21.6 WS, .155 WS/48, 5.3 BPM, 12.3 VORP

Again, my first post in this thread, I said I leaned Dwyane Wade. I’ve just been arguing that it’s close. Wade’s better defense didn’t give him a significant better plus-minus, regular season or post season, which suggests that the difference in defense didn’t impact winning as much as you might believe. Sure, Wade has the 2006 run. And again, my opinion is that Shaq and the free throws in the Finals de-values it some. Not discredit, not take away. Just de-value. And I don’t give Wade much credit for his 2012, 2013 sidekick les. You’re free to do so. I’m not. So even when we take into consideration Harden’s playoff chokes, I personally don’t think there’s some huge gulf between them as players.

You’re free to disagree. But that’s my opinion. And there’s the “support” you asked for.

[Millennial_Messiah]

How many rings does Harden have?

Just because ZOMG HE SHOOTS THREEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZ doesn't make him better than Wade.

I'm not a fan of Wade's politics lately, but there's no denying his prime was better than anything James Harden had to offer. Harden arguably peaked in OKC in 2012.

[lefty]

The main difference is 1999 was supposed to be Malone's year to ring. All you heard was he'd have two rings if there was no Jordan and this was his chance and instead he got bent over by Hall of Fame franchise bigman Brian Grant.

Malone, but Bavetta really ed Utah super deep in game 6

Howard Eisley's 3 should have counted (it was before the 24 shot clock buzzer) and Ron Harper's running 2 shouldn't have (after the buzzer)

5 point swing

"but jOrDaN nEvEr pLaYeD a gAmE 7 in the fInAls"

Bavetta, worst ref ever

[ambchang]

& Bavetta is so bad even his own mother called him " ".

[baseline bum]

Malone, but Bavetta really ed Utah super deep in game 6

Howard Eisley's 3 should have counted (it was before the 24 shot clock buzzer) and Ron Harper's running 2 shouldn't have (after the buzzer)

5 point swing

"but jOrDaN nEvEr pLaYeD a gAmE 7 in the fInAls"

Bavetta, worst ref ever

Yeah the Eisley three being waived off was a horrible call. I could see the Harper shot going either way in the days before instant replay. Malone has always shown an incredible talent for stealing defeat from the jaws of victory though. Pretty embarrassing he couldn't even win that one game against a Bulls team with a 10% at best Scottie Pippen. Though not as embarrassing as getting wrecked by Brian Grant once Jordan was gone and the road to a le was supposedly cleared for him.

[lefty]

& Bavetta is so bad even his own mother called him " ".

[lefty]

Yeah the Eisley three being waived off was a horrible call. I could see the Harper shot going either way in the days before instant replay. Malone has always shown an incredible talent for stealing defeat from the jaws of victory though. Pretty embarrassing he couldn't even win that one game against a Bulls team with a 10% at best Scottie Pippen. Though not as embarrassing as getting wrecked by Brian Grant once Jordan was gone and the road to a le was supposedly cleared for him.

Yeah no excuse , with Pippen ailing he should have done better

In 1999 Jazz started to show their age, their window was 1988-1998 (the 88 Jazz seemed to be better than the 97-98 team)

Also the shortened 1999 season with its compact schedule wasn't good for old teams ike the Jazz and Rockets; the Blazers were youngers and fresher..
Knicks too except Ewing and LJ, Spree, Houston and Camby just outrun and outjumped other Eastern teams.
Shaq and Kobe under 30 but were coached by Rambis

Sure Spurs were old, but their new franchise player wasn't.

[Tyronn Lue]

Similar career statistics, similar career win%. They’re comparable players. It’s not opinion. Statistically, they are very similar. It also helps to make almost an apples to apples comparison because they played a similar amount of games in both their regular season and post season careers, and their careers overlapped about a decade, so roughly the same era.

James Harden regular season career:
1000 games 651 wins, 349 losses (.651 win percentage)
24.7 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 7.0 APG
.442 FG, .363 3P, .609 TS%
24.4 PER, 158 WS, .218 WS/48, 6.7 BPM, 76 VORP

Dwyane Wade regular season career:
1054 games, 611 wins, 443 losses (.580 win percentage)
22.0 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 5.4 APG
.480 FG, .293 3P, .549 TS%
23.5 PER, 120.7 WS, .162 WS/48, 5.0 BPM, 6.8 VORP

James Harden post season career:
160 games, 85 wins, 75 losses (.531 win percentage)
22.7 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 6.3 APG
.424 FG, .338 3P, .585 TS%
22.0 PER, 20.6 WS, .172 WS/48, 6.2 BPM, 11.9 VORP

Dwyane Wade post season career:
177 games, 105 wins, 72 losses (.593 win percentage)
22.3 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.9 APG
.474 FG, .338 3P, .549 TS%
22.4 PER, 21.6 WS, .155 WS/48, 5.3 BPM, 12.3 VORP

Again, my first post in this thread, I said I leaned Dwyane Wade. I’ve just been arguing that it’s close. Wade’s better defense didn’t give him a significant better plus-minus, regular season or post season, which suggests that the difference in defense didn’t impact winning as much as you might believe. Sure, Wade has the 2006 run. And again, my opinion is that Shaq and the free throws in the Finals de-values it some. Not discredit, not take away. Just de-value. And I don’t give Wade much credit for his 2012, 2013 sidekick les. You’re free to do so. I’m not. So even when we take into consideration Harden’s playoff chokes, I personally don’t think there’s some huge gulf between them as players.

You’re free to disagree. But that’s my opinion. And there’s the “support” you asked for.

My original response was regarding your comment on how posters here held Kobe to a different standard, and it was to point out Kobe wasn't being compared to Harden or Wade. That remains true.

The comparison between Harden and Wade has to ignore Wade's playoffs in 2006, because he won the Finals MVP. Meanwhile Harden didn't do so well during his lone trip to the Finals. Remember, Wade has been to the Finals 5 times and won 3 of them. Shaq wasn't a monster during that 2006 Finals. Also the difference between Wade on defense and Harden on defense is much greater than their difference on offense. If you don't believe that you didn't watch the games. It's unfortunate for James that his legacy will be of someone who folded in the playoffs but excelled during otherwise meaningless regular season games. The eyeball test really indicts James.

[Tyronn Lue]

I'll say one more thing about the comparison, Jamstone then let it rest. You said James only had "career loser Chris Paul" but James is exactly the same, a career loser in terms of post season performances. You cannot discount Chris Paul as help because of his post season legacy, then say James' post season results are someone else's fault.

[JamStone]

I'll say one more thing about the comparison, Jamstone then let it rest.

I’ve never been accused of brevity. I realize and acknowledge I’m long-winded. Sorry, bear with me.

The point of those stats was to show why I think it’s close. It’s not just standard stats, but the catch-all advanced stats even non basketball geeks accept, particularly in the playoffs. Look at WS/48 and BPM specifically. They indicate that when Harden’s teams win, it’s more because of him than it is on Wade when his teams win. I think that’s important because of the perception of playoff Harden. It’s not like Harden is complete no show in the post season. In fact, overall, playoff Harden is nearly indistinguishable from playoff Wade statistically... statistically, I know, relax.

You misinterpreted the Kobe reference. I didn’t compare Kobe with Wade or Harden as players. I compared the narrative of qualifying Kobe’s championship success with qualifying Wade’s championship success. I was criticized for pointing out Wade without LeBron, but Spurs fan love qualifying Kobe getting carried by MVPau. It’s ironic and hypocritical. That’s why Kobe was brought up. Nothing to do with comparing the actual players.

I don’t argue that Harden isn't a career loser. Sure he is. I’m not blaming Harden’s failures on his teammates, just offering context. The point of calling CP3 a career loser is to compare Harden’s teammates to Wade’s. CP3 and Dwight Howard compared to Shaq and LeBron. Harden had two really good players, all stars, playing alongside him. When Wade won, he had two guys that go down as top 10 players in the history of the game that won les without Wade. That’s why CP3 as a career loser is relevant.

I think Wade is probably the better player. And 2006 can absolutely be the deciding factor. I don’t think defense is because I don’t think Wade’s defense is the reason why Wade won more in the playoffs or won les. I do think it’s close between the two. And I believe those who don’t think it’s close is because of personal bias against Harden.

[resistanze]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...has_made_more/

[baseline bum]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...has_made_more/

Harden in the company of other NBA legends such as Dolph Schayes, Corey Maggette, and Donald Royal