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The problem is bidding against teams with more to gain. You lose that trade every time.
Trading for any player isn’t all about the direct win/loss outcome that comes from having said player. Sometimes it’s about the impact they have for years to come for the young core. Jrue is one of the best type of players to pave the way for that and is a perfect on court commander. What the Spurs pay here is worth it if they go this route.
It’s like buying a Toyota Corolla now to get from point A to C instead of driving a ty car that gets you from A to C. It’s not about the fun (in this case, the wins) that you get driving from A to C, the point is that you reliably get to destination C with a car that runs well (Jrue).
Wemby said in an interview how he would love to do stuff that helps the community. What better way to learn how to do that than to learn from someone like Jrue, who is known for doing so much community service? Jrue will keep Wemby grounded and help shape him to be a caring adult. We want Wemby to not only become one of the best Spurs players ever but if he had Kareem-level impact after his career is over too? That would be special.
Last edited by Dejounte; 09-28-2023 at 03:24 AM.
The problem is bidding against teams with more to gain. You lose that trade every time.
Spurs are going through a full rebuilding process and there is a blueprint for that with three stages:
Stage 1: The tear down.
The team is trading away its good vets for prospects, draft picks and cap space.
Stage 2: Building a young core.
The team is adding, mostly through the draft and sometimes with some tanking, a bunch of good young players to build the team around.
Stage 3: Being compe ive.
The team is adding through trades and free agency players to fill voids on the team.
That's the theory. In reality, these stages can overlap and have a various length.
Spurs have finished the stage 1 with the Pöltl trade and are fully in stage 2. To me their young core is basically 2 good but not great players (Vassell and Johnson) and 2 promising prospects (Sochan and Wembanyama). Spurs still need to expand their core of young players before starting the third stage. They're just too early in the rebuilding process to trade for Jrue Holiday.
Last edited by Bruno; 09-28-2023 at 05:04 AM.
Just want to say, this is so good for the NBA, for a small market team still going all in and prying Lillard from forcing himself to a big market team.
It’s actually too late to trade for Jrue. The Spurs needed him in 2018.
Trying to get him now is patently absurd, of course, but it’s the offseason and people need something to talk about.
The myth about rebuild processes having to revolve around an all-youth team is a myth that needs to be busted. Teams that went through that process successfully always had key vets in their line-up. I argue that it wasn’t until vets joined those teams was the point where true development finally started. Those years before an old ass Chris Paul joined the Suns were wasted years and that young core learned nothing.
Last edited by Dejounte; 09-28-2023 at 06:35 AM.
The Spurs may literally end up cutting the guys taken with those firsts anyway. We keep assuming they're going to consolidate those picks, but it very rarely works out that way. The gap between Holiday and Lowry is gigantic. I wouldn't pay for Lowry at all if I were the Spurs. At best, he'd've had utility on the team when compared to the cap space and expirings it took to get him.
As I said, I don't think the team is going to be a contender over the next two years. But I do think they can be a playoff team in that span. Guys like Keldon and Vassell need to figure out how to be actual good players and probably shouldn't be spending these years as the "established vets" of the rotation. In all honesty, I would've preferred if this opportunity were around next summer after the Spurs got one more high pick. But it's here now, and there probably isn't going to be a better combination of traits available next summer. Unless PATFO thinks the Spurs need to tank another year, they should try to build a real support system around Wemby. They shouldn't instantly go all-in like NOLA seems to keep trying to do every time they win the lottery. But they should absolutely give the guys on their roster the best chance to showcase their talent as they look to build a core. Getting an elite role-playing PG does that.
I can't say I agree with this. Well, I can agree that rebuilding often involves tearing down and then hopefully building back up. But I don't think one will find many examples of teams that have followed this path to success. Instead, it feels like a team will tear down, sit as a bad team as long as it takes to get a star through the draft, free agency or a trade and then try to capitalize on that star by aggressively adding talent. We don't know for sure if the Spurs have their star or even multiple stars yet and in general if what kind of talent they have. That's why getting players to help determine that and who can help refine whatever talent they do have is a worthwhile goal. Trade assets are not money -- they don't just sit in a bank and keep gaining value. The Spurs HAVE to use the six picks they're looking at somehow (with the exception of the Chicago pick). They won't necessarily be any closer to having their young core by then. In fact, if the roster is clogged with even more meh first-rounders they might be further from that goal. Holiday wouldn't make the Spurs contend, but he could improve guys who might be on the team when it contends.
Do you think Holiday could be to the Spurs what CP3 was to the Thunder? That's the closest parallel I can think of.
The Suns went 8-0 in the bubble the year before CP0 arrived, and missed the playoffs by an eyelash. They did learn and advance over a period of years, going from 4 years of winning less than 30% of their games to winning 46% that year before Paul arrived. He led them to the Finals, but I think they would have made the playoffs, regardless.
The Spurs aren't making any major moves. They already said they're going into the year with the same core team and Wemby.
Holiday would be a great vet to add to the roster. But he costs too much and the assets we'd need to give up aren't worth it imo. I'm sure he'd be a professional no matter what but I highly doubt he wants to play babysitter/mentor to a young team at this point in his career
Yeah, the Spurs aren't going for this guy. Team already has vets, etc.
The question is whether they can jump into any trade Portland makes. They do have expirings. I'm not sure I see a trade where they can get in, though.
And no one is available to "mentor" Wemby how to do community service other then a 36 million dollar per year negro?
Quite sure since the Patty coffee club and with CIA Pops rep for being generous that a "mentor" for community service can be found.
And Kream needs to take care of his own knife stabbing kid 1st.
The question for the Spurs FO is this:
"Do we already have the core of future stars on the team to compete for a le?"
If the answer is YES:
All of our resources, including draft capital, become dedicated to giving those players the help they need to develop, and then win.
That means we don't need 5-6 FRPs in the next two drafts and instead we need some veteran leadership that will help these kids develop and will help them learn how to win games.
That means we start to trade away some of our draft capital to get that veteran help. Guys like Jrue.
If the answer is MAYBE:
You keep your powder dry for another year to "see what we have."
This seems to be where the Spurs are.
We don't make major moves and hope that we get enough data in this upcoming season to make decisions going forward.
If the answer to the question is NO:
We keep all of our draft capital and just churn like OKC has done until the answer becomes YES.
What does YES look like?
To say definitively that we have a future core on the roster that can win les then we need:
Wemby to look like a reliable future superstar
TWO of Sochan, Devin, Keldon, or Branham to show that they can become borderline All-star level players (or better)
Why are you such a piece of ?
Who hurt you?
I want them to do it again.
The shtistain poster is back. ^
Holiday has always been one of my favorite players. If the Spurs were further along he'd be great in that Mario Elie sort of veteran role. Unfortunately I think the Spurs need a couple years to be ready for that sort of role player.
I'm super curious to see how well the Spurs play this year. He's not worth giving up two firsts if the team isn't going to make any noise for a few years.
whether they're consolidated or not, or they're thrown away for not, those still represent valuable opportunities to build out a roster that allows you to timely pounce and add the big players via trade/FA to really launch the team. they certainly wont all hit. but trading 2 firsts either costs you one of those opportunities, or costs you some of the ammunition you'd need to make one of those timely moves
i basically agree with all this. the gap between them is huge. but thats also reflected by their gap in cost. i dont think we should have to pay for lowry either, and while i dont think the scenario to acquire him for free exists anymore (if they pulled of the lillard deal, i think the avenue was there), im saying i would rather "overpay" and toss low value SRP or two than pay market rate for Holiday given where the team isThe gap between Holiday and Lowry is gigantic. I wouldn't pay for Lowry at all if I were the Spurs. At best, he'd've had utility on the team when compared to the cap space and expirings it took to get him.
this is fair tbh. dont want a rudderless ship. im just juggling it against the opportunity costAs I said, I don't think the team is going to be a contender over the next two years. But I do think they can be a playoff team in that span. Guys like Keldon and Vassell need to figure out how to be actual good players and probably shouldn't be spending these years as the "established vets" of the rotation.
it does appear they're going to "tank" again, depending on one's definition of tank. and to be fair, we do still have a lot of unanswered questions about what the roster needs going forward. we know we dont have a PG. we think Vassell should be able to be a starting 2/3, but he has to prove it still. i dont think keldon is a starter, but he wont be ask to carry the load this year to the same extent as last year, so he can be evaluated now under different cir stances. zollins may leave. we dont really know if branham/wesley can be rotation nba players. sochan still has a lot of question marks as to what his final product looks like.In all honesty, I would've preferred if this opportunity were around next summer after the Spurs got one more high pick. But it's here now, and there probably isn't going to be a better combination of traits available next summer. Unless PATFO thinks the Spurs need to tank another year, they should try to build a real support system around Wemby. They shouldn't instantly go all-in like NOLA seems to keep trying to do every time they win the lottery. But they should absolutely give the guys on their roster the best chance to showcase their talent as they look to build a core. Getting an elite role-playing PG does that.
basically the entire 15 man roster is a question mark. point being, they might not need to consolidate their FRPs... its plausible that we may actually need to use them to keep swinging until we find a few core players to surround around wemby before getting into aggressive mode
The Spurs aren’t going to trade for Jrue Holiday for the same reason that Portland isn’t going to keep him. He is a valuable piece on a contender. On a rebuilding team draft capital is worth more. So Portland, which is rebuilding, is going to trade him to a contender for draft capital.
This is a discussion forum, though. The Spurs have made it clear 100,000 different ways that they don’t intend aggressively to improve the roster around Wemby, but rather to stand pat. Standing pat does not provoke a lot of discussion. That is why for a while there were threads with no responses for 2 weeks lingering on the first page. There wasn’t much to talk about. But speculation about things that aren’t going to happen at least gives posters something to talk about.
Other things that get discussed when there isn’t much to talk about:
What cons utes tanking?
Is Wemby’s dye job temporary?
Who are the draft prospects for 9 months from now?
Is the wood trim in the new practice facility good or bad?
Only the San Antonio Spurs could make the acquisition of Victor Wembanyama so anticlimactic that their own fans are bored.
Holiday definitely won't be this guy since I doubt he is looking to close out his career on a team probably headed for another top 5 pick. I bet if he got asked what 20 teams he would want to play for the Spurs wouldn't be on the list.
People think every "veteran player" wants to "teach" young guys something. Most don't. Most have made the money they wanted and now probably want to ring chase.
I don't think we're disagreeing that much, honestly. I just think that using two of the tier picks is them enjoying an opportunity that most other teams can't. Most team's aren't going to have multiple firsts they can trade with it not being a big deal. For most other teams, it's a real future sacrifice. For the Spurs, we're talking completely moveable assets. For the reasons I've said, I think it could be worth the gamble. Even the ty firsts have real value, as you said, but they don't have that value forever. They passed on potential opportunities to convert some of those picks into more immediate opportunities during the draft. Even after this, they'll have more opportunities. I just hope they don't "hold" their ways into pissing away those assets. That feels way more likely than not at this point though.
I don't see "seeing what we have" to mean that they have to let the players run around like headless chickens. Most players are not stars or have rotations built around their leadership or skill. In theory it's nice to see if Vassell or Keldon can become stable players with a higher option in the lineup. But what are we actually hoping for here? Do we wish that Vassell becomes a ball-dominant scorer or that Keldon gets a good iso game? Are we hoping that Tre Jones learns to score to the point that he's a decent PG? Personally, I'm hoping that they can become decent role-players who can fit in with stars when those develop or are brought in.it does appear they're going to "tank" again, depending on one's definition of tank. and to be fair, we do still have a lot of unanswered questions about what the roster needs going forward. we know we dont have a PG. we think Vassell should be able to be a starting 2/3, but he has to prove it still. i dont think keldon is a starter, but he wont be ask to carry the load this year to the same extent as last year, so he can be evaluated now under different cir stances. zollins may leave. we dont really know if branham/wesley can be rotation nba players. sochan still has a lot of question marks as to what his final product looks like.
basically the entire 15 man roster is a question mark. point being, they might not need to consolidate their FRPs... its plausible that we may actually need to use them to keep swinging until we find a few core players to surround around wemby before getting into aggressive mode
I'm sort of annoyed at how much the Spurs have neglected drafting or developing role-players since 2016. At some point they need to stop playing with the idea that X or Y can be a lead play-maker and instead ask "Can they shoot? Can they defend? Do they know how to do little things on the court?" That means you have to be willing to ramp up the compe ion guys like Branham, Wesley and the like get. No one who can't beat out Tre Jones is good enough to ignore getting an All-Star and champion player. The scenario that you bring up, where most of the team flops to justify bringing in six to ten new players over the next two drafts is a horror show, and I simply cannot imagine that many players being that irredeemably bad. That would be bad enough to cost basically the entire front office and staff their jobs. The team should absolutely be looking into upgrading their core, but that means they need to actually upgrade it when they have the chance and not just add lotto tickets to it.
Even in the pre-contending phase, they shouldn't just be looking at the draft to gain talent. They have plenty of salary flexibility now that doesn't roll over. Wasting that or selling it for cheap isn't innately smart. They should be looking at every tool to acquire and upgrade talent. They should not be sitting their passively waiting for a contending core to fall into their laps.
That's just the offseason for you. The draft was 3+ months ago and while the Spurs made a few interesting moves, it seems pretty clear they are running with what they got now.
Personally, I'm all for it. No one should expect Wemby to come in and make us instant contenders, and there is probably no move the Spurs could have made to enable that.
But yeah, it's been a long time since Spurs fans have gotten any interesting news. Fortunately, preseason is right around the corner.
The Spurs can almost not afford to bad top-five pick bad again. Guys like Vassell and Johnson can't afford to be terrible again. The Spurs had to try really hard to tank last year. I don't think they'd be anywhere near a top pick if they changed to a win-now posture.
As far as Holiday goes, they should 100-percent ask him if he's willing to pick up his option and stay in SA through his contract prior to trading for him. I don't actually think Jrue would have an issue with not being on a contender so long as he's on a team trying to win games and play their best players. But they shouldn't trade for him while he still has his PO unless it's for basically nothing. As much as those picks lack value, they have too much value for that.
Don't worry, the Spurs aren't going to be bottom 5. It's just a fantasy some fans have for some bizarre reason.
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