spurs trade rumors

[Chinook]

The Spurs look like they might have three or four top-10 picks incoming with their own and Toronto's this year and ATL's next year. Securing those picks should be the main restriction in any trade. To me, that means the Spurs have to remain worse than Toronto this year and that they can't make the Hawks better or give them back their pick. They don't have to keep all three guys they drat with those picks, but they do need to make sure they have those picks in hand to trade. That's way more important than trying to stop the "bleeding" this year by trading for Quickley or Murray or whomever else. I'm not worried about them acquiring someone like Ivey, Fultz or Davion Mitc at this point. That shouldn't affect any of those picks. If they wanna do something like that or be the team that lets Rubio rehab, it's whatever.

I don't think Johnson and Vassell have the low value folks are assigning to them. Devin might be too awkward to trade, so I don't him being dealt, but I could see a team offering something of value for Keldon. SpursTalk is meming right now, but the dude is having a good year, and it should be clear from last game that he's not the cause of the awful defense. Giving his contract, I could see a rising team wanting to bring him on as their long-term sixth-man solution. I think it'd be a mistake for the Spurs to jump ship on him outside of a really good package, though. I think he's being hurt by the lineup confusion as well. Until Pop stops ing around and plays the Jones, Vassell, Johnson, Sochan, Wembanyama lineup that always made the most sense if Vic showed he could handle the five, most of the main guys are going to look pretty bad. As I've said before, I wish Pop would actually put the team's best foot forward so we could what changes the team actually needs to make versus what they can hope will fix itself with experience.

Jones, Graham, Wesley
Vassell, Champ, Branham
Johnson, McDermott, Cissoko
Sochan, Osman, Mamukelashvili
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey

That should just be the rotation for 5-10 games, obviously with the exception of Collins and Bassey being hurt and the team having to play the two-ways and Mamu there. Let that rotation cook until the deadline, sell off the vets and give the young players the rest of the year to show if they should be in next year's rotation. Then basically go into next summer with an open mind when it comes to moving every player besides Wemby.

[TD 21]

None of those guys would stop the "bleeding". The only one I'd want is Ivey and it's because he'd have a chance to be a long term fit, not because he's good enough currently to change much. As I said, I also believe post draft would be a more realistic timeline anyway.

The rest is talking out of both sides of your mouth, saying they need to stay as bad as possible (as if any iteration of this team risks passing the Craptors), while following it up by saying the genius needs to play the logical rotation to maximize them.

[spurraider21]

None of those guys would stop the "bleeding". The only one I'd want is Ivey and it's because he'd have a chance to be a long term fit, not because he's good enough currently to change much. As I said, I also believe post draft would be a more realistic timeline anyway.

The rest is talking out of both sides of your mouth, saying they need to stay as bad as possible (as if any iteration of this team risks passing the Craptors), while following it up by saying the genius needs to play the logical rotation to maximize them.

i dont think he's talking out of both sides tbh, and i think the bolded is an assumption he also makes

chinook wants us to stay worse than the raptors to maximize the chance of their pick conveying. thats why he was opposed to something like a Quickly trade which theoretically could improve the team enough to jeapordize that, though he is not opposed to trading for Ivey (a move which he doesnt believe would move the needle much this year to threaten that), and he is especially not opposed to optimizing our current lineup, because

1) like you said, it doesnt jeopardize the toronto thing
2) it better helps evaluate what limited pieces we do currently have

[scott]

^ As I noted in this thread the Starting 5 that Chinook (and many of us) is calling for far and away our best lineup statistically, though they've only logged 27 minutes together this season, putting up a 25.9 Net Rating. The same lineup, but subbing out Wemby for Collins has a 0.0 Net Rating, which is pretty good for this team, so you can see that the team just seems to "work better" with that basic construction.

The new starting lineup of Bran-Dev-Champ-Soch-Wemby wasn't bad in the first 4 games together (+18.1 NetRtg), but the 15 minutes they played together against Boston really did a number on that, and now they have a NetRtg of -13.1

To Chinook's point about Keldon's value - he makes a ton of sense off the bench so being optimistic I am hoping this lineup change is attempt to develop him in that 6th man role for us into the future. If that is the case, you might argue that the best alternate starting 5 would be Jones-Dev-Champ-Soch-Wemby, but that combo has logged zero minutes this season. You'd think perhaps Pop is maybe trying to condition Jones for that bench role into the future as well, except Jones is already accustomed to it and is on a short-term deal anyway, so you'd have to question what his long-term outlook as a Spur looks like.

So I'd like to see what Chinook describes above but with Keldon still coming off the bench.

Still don't think we see any trades unless someone is blowing it up and there is an opportunity to snag a cost-controlled potential second star (Ivey for example).

[Chinook]

None of those guys would stop the "bleeding".

That's the point -- the Spurs need to "bleed" this year to maximize their pick and hopefully box out Toronto to keep that pick. They also need to be mindful about making trades with ATL that jeopardizes that pick. I think a lot of people want them to make an impact trade now because they want to improve the team this season. While I think that approach could have worked in the off-season, I think it's too late for that to be the plan (assuming they don't have an option for an All-NBA player that can only be acquired during this season).

The rest is talking out of both sides of your mouth, saying they need to stay as bad as possible (as if any iteration of this team risks passing the Craptors), while following it up by saying the genius needs to play the logical rotation to maximize them.

We're at the point where people actively think the team has no NBA players outside of Wemby and MAYBE Vassell. That's not true, but it's a perception that's out there based on how terribly the team plays most of the time. We're getting to the point where the team is going to get a number of high picks each year for multiple years. They need to make decisions on guys and can't be hamstringing everyone like they are now. They need to not be afraid of moving on from guys too soon, but they also shouldn't get into a cycle of burning prospects by not properly evaluating them. So play them in logical places, with legit coaching, and evaluate.

At this point, the Spurs have likely lost enough games compared to the Raptors that they shouldn't get ahead of them. That's even more true if they end up selling off their vets next month and replace them with guys like Branham and Wesley. Given Pop's recent activity, there is some reason to wonder if the Spurs purposefully lost games with "experimentation" in order to create a cushion to actually try to win games later. Whether that was intentional or Pop is just starting to wake up to how much direction the team needs, it seems fortunate for the Spurs that they should get a high pick at this point no matter how hard they try given the record so far and the limit to the actualized talent on the roster.

In other words, they can stop tanking now and still get a high pick so long as they don't make win-now trades.

[Seventyniner]

At this point, the Spurs have likely lost enough games compared to the Raptors that they shouldn't get ahead of them. That's even more true if they end up selling off their vets next month and replace them with guys like Branham and Wesley. Given Pop's recent activity, there is some reason to wonder if the Spurs purposefully lost games with "experimentation" in order to create a cushion to actually try to win games later. Whether that was intentional or Pop is just starting to wake up to how much direction the team needs, it seems fortunate for the Spurs that they should get a high pick at this point no matter how hard they try given the record so far and the limit to the actualized talent on the roster.

In other words, they can stop tanking now and still get a high pick so long as they don't make win-now trades.

If the Spurs really haven't been trying to win, it would be a kick in the ass if they start trying to and still fail as hard as they have been.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Chinook]

If the Spurs really haven't been trying to win, it would be a kick in the ass if they start trying to and still fail as hard as they have been.

I'll believe it when I see it.

It's fine if they do, because then they'd know they can clean house on the roster. Right now, it's hard to honestly say anyone's played themselves off the roster because they've been playing a non-sensical rotation. That's not a good situation to be in when the team is looking at adding two to four additional players in the draft.

[TD 21]

That's the point -- the Spurs need to "bleed" this year to maximize their pick and hopefully box out Toronto to keep that pick. They also need to be mindful about making trades with ATL that jeopardizes that pick.

In other words, they can stop tanking now and still get a high pick so long as they don't make win-now trades.

And they will "bleed" either way, whether that's staying the course or acquiring the type of player you mentioned.

If you wanted to make that argument with Quickley, fine, but that ship has obviously sailed. No other realistic option is "win-now".

[Chinook]

And they will "bleed" either way, whether that's staying the course or acquiring the type of player you mentioned.

The players I mentioned were not "stop the bleeding" players. I don't know why you keep acting like I said they were. They're specifically "they won't move the needle this year in terms of jeopardizing the picks, so acquiring them is fine" players. The team's goal doesn't have to be to lose as much as possible, especially now that they've already lost so much.

If you wanted to make that argument with Quickley, fine, but that ship has obviously sailed. No other realistic option is "win-now".

Quickley, Murray, Young, Donovan Mitc -- the list goes on. There are trades that involve the Spurs giving up real assets to get Wemby "help" now. It's fine if you don't agree those trades would matter, but you can look at BB's thread to see that sentiment is alive and well with some Spurs fans. The Spurs have the capacity to trade for basically anyone. So "realistic" in terms of what the Spurs have the ability to do is extremely wide. "Realistic" in terms of what the front office is likely to do is basically a non-starter condition to place upon a discussion of what trades various fans want the team to do. The team is going to do whatever it does, regardless of what we think about them doing it. Trying to predict the team's moves is a worthwhile discussion, but I don't think that's what most are using this thread for.

[BacktoBasics]

The players I mentioned were not "stop the bleeding" players. I don't know why you keep acting like I said they were. They're specifically "they won't move the needle this year in terms of jeopardizing the picks, so acquiring them is fine" players. The team's goal doesn't have to be to lose as much as possible, especially now that they've already lost so much.




Quickley, Murray, Young, Donovan Mitc -- the list goes on. There are trades that involve the Spurs giving up real assets to get Wemby "help" now. It's fine if you don't agree those trades would matter, but you can look at BB's thread to see that sentiment is alive and well with some Spurs fans. The Spurs have the capacity to trade for basically anyone. So "realistic" in terms of what the Spurs have the ability to do is extremely wide. "Realistic" in terms of what the front office is likely to do is basically a non-starter condition to place upon a discussion of what trades various fans want the team to do. The team is going to do whatever it does, regardless of what we think about them doing it. Trying to predict the team's moves is a worthwhile discussion, but I don't think that's what most are using this thread for.

Mitc hasn’t been able to move the needle. He’d be interesting on this roster and certainly solves a number 1 scoring hole but maybe he’s not the number 1 people think he is.

Young is a cancer but does seem to be having a better season this year.

[spurraider21]

The players I mentioned were not "stop the bleeding" players. I don't know why you keep acting like I said they were. They're specifically "they won't move the needle this year in terms of jeopardizing the picks, so acquiring them is fine" players. The team's goal doesn't have to be to lose as much as possible, especially now that they've already lost so much.




Quickley, Murray, Young, Donovan Mitc -- the list goes on. There are trades that involve the Spurs giving up real assets to get Wemby "help" now. It's fine if you don't agree those trades would matter, but you can look at BB's thread to see that sentiment is alive and well with some Spurs fans. The Spurs have the capacity to trade for basically anyone. So "realistic" in terms of what the Spurs have the ability to do is extremely wide. "Realistic" in terms of what the front office is likely to do is basically a non-starter condition to place upon a discussion of what trades various fans want the team to do. The team is going to do whatever it does, regardless of what we think about them doing it. Trying to predict the team's moves is a worthwhile discussion, but I don't think that's what most are using this thread for.

i dont think Quickly was about "winning now" so much as him being a young guy worth signing an extension to for the long haul. trading for him now would just be the way to get him in the door, as now toronto is almost certain to retain him

[scott]

I believe Chinook has very eloquently laid out an example of "useful tanking" (for lack of a better term). This is quite different than what the Spurs have done thus far, which is to just suck ass and lose games without any apparent long-term utility. Hopefully the rest of the reason is more like what has been laid out here.

[Chinook]

i dont think Quickly was about "winning now" so much as him being a young guy worth signing an extension to for the long haul. trading for him now would just be the way to get him in the door, as now toronto is almost certain to retain him

There's a difference between trading for a pick to take Wallace or trading for Ivey versus trading for Quickley, though. With those first two situations, you're acquiring players you feel aren't going to be good enough to jeopardize a high pick now because they're so young but hope they will be foundational players. In Quickley's case, you're trading for him basically thinking you'd've given him a sizeable extension had he been on the team back in October. You're committing to him as if he's a piece of the core. It's a much harder sell to be willing to lock up that much cap space in a guy you feel comfortable won't move the needle this year. Sure you don't have to think a fourth-year player is a finished product, but you've still gotta think he should be doing more than that if you're going to make him the second-highest paid player one your team. If the dude is just a finishing piece, you can afford to pay more later when the team is more certain of its core rather than trying to lock up a 4th-6th man on $100M/4 early on.

[MannyIsGod]

People thinking Wemby is bolting after 4 years of not winning a championship are pretty damn foolish. The money will be a big factor and so will the fact that almost no draft picks in this situation are truly contnendors at that point in the time line.

[MannyIsGod]

you mortgage the future via trading picks. this is literally the perfect time to.

This is literally the dumbest time to. I cannot think if a worse time to trade picks than when you are one of the worst teams in history.

[MannyIsGod]

The Spurs look like they might have three or four top-10 picks incoming with their own and Toronto's this year and ATL's next year. Securing those picks should be the main restriction in any trade. To me, that means the Spurs have to remain worse than Toronto this year and that they can't make the Hawks better or give them back their pick. They don't have to keep all three guys they drat with those picks, but they do need to make sure they have those picks in hand to trade. That's way more important than trying to stop the "bleeding" this year by trading for Quickley or Murray or whomever else. I'm not worried about them acquiring someone like Ivey, Fultz or Davion Mitc at this point. That shouldn't affect any of those picks. If they wanna do something like that or be the team that lets Rubio rehab, it's whatever.

I don't think Johnson and Vassell have the low value folks are assigning to them. Devin might be too awkward to trade, so I don't him being dealt, but I could see a team offering something of value for Keldon. SpursTalk is meming right now, but the dude is having a good year, and it should be clear from last game that he's not the cause of the awful defense. Giving his contract, I could see a rising team wanting to bring him on as their long-term sixth-man solution. I think it'd be a mistake for the Spurs to jump ship on him outside of a really good package, though. I think he's being hurt by the lineup confusion as well. Until Pop stops ing around and plays the Jones, Vassell, Johnson, Sochan, Wembanyama lineup that always made the most sense if Vic showed he could handle the five, most of the main guys are going to look pretty bad. As I've said before, I wish Pop would actually put the team's best foot forward so we could what changes the team actually needs to make versus what they can hope will fix itself with experience.

Jones, Graham, Wesley
Vassell, Champ, Branham
Johnson, McDermott, Cissoko
Sochan, Osman, Mamukelashvili
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey

That should just be the rotation for 5-10 games, obviously with the exception of Collins and Bassey being hurt and the team having to play the two-ways and Mamu there. Let that rotation cook until the deadline, sell off the vets and give the young players the rest of the year to show if they should be in next year's rotation. Then basically go into next summer with an open mind when it comes to moving every player besides Wemby.

I don't disagree with this, and sure Devin and Keldon have more value but I have a hard time seeing that type of package makes sense to move them for. Trading them for draft picks that may or may not have good value in the future just seems pointless at this moment considering how many picks we already have. I don't know what an actual good package for Keldon looks like since I don't see the Spurs getting a direct upgrade.

As for Pop and lineups, if Pop isn't just a trash coach and this is an actual intentional tank, then we would supposedly see him switch to a more reasonable lineup at some point. I am not holding my breath.

[vy65]

People thinking Wemby is bolting after 4 years of not winning a championship are pretty damn foolish. The money will be a big factor and so will the fact that almost no draft picks in this situation are truly contnendors at that point in the time line.

I hope to god you’re right. It is re-assuring that even Kawhi re-upped with the team before pulling the bull that has traumatized the fans. But then that begs the question of what was the point of this year? It clearly hasn’t been to ac ulate draft capital - other than the Dallas trade, I don’t think the team has added any first round assets beyond a pick swap. I still have not heard an answer to why they needed another year of evaluating players that had at least 1 year’s tenure on the team to “see what they have.” So is the point to physically condition Wemby to play an NBA season? Maybe, but that’s not mutually exclusive of other deals that could be had. The Collins and Vessel extensions are concerning mysteries at this point. I get that Wemby shouldn’t move after his rookie deal is up, but to be this rudderless is at best confusing and at worst a signal to Vic that this team can’t put what he needs together. I hope I’m wrong, but there’s clearly no clear sense of purpose for this team - particularly given how horrific Vessel, Collins, etc are and have been.

[MannyIsGod]

I hope to god you’re right. It is re-assuring that even Kawhi re-upped with the team before pulling the bull that has traumatized the fans. But then that begs the question of what was the point of this year? It clearly hasn’t been to ac ulate draft capital - other than the Dallas trade, I don’t think the team has added any first round assets beyond a pick swap. I still have not heard an answer to why they needed another year of evaluating players that had at least 1 year’s tenure on the team to “see what they have.” So is the point to physically condition Wemby to play an NBA season? Maybe, but that’s not mutually exclusive of other deals that could be had. The Collins and Vessel extensions are concerning mysteries at this point. I get that Wemby shouldn’t move after his rookie deal is up, but to be this rudderless is at best confusing and at worst a signal to Vic that this team can’t put what he needs together. I hope I’m wrong, but there’s clearly no clear sense of purpose for this team - particularly given how horrific Vessel, Collins, etc are and have been.

A player like Wemby walking away from a rookie extension is leaving an incredible amount of money on the table. Wemby could very well earn a rookie extension that is 30% of the cap should he win a DPOY or two in these rookie years. Judging by this year that is a very real possibility if not likelyhood. That amount of money he'd leave on the table and decided to leave the Spurs is immense. Then there are supermax implications later if he leaves as well. Its just a monumental amount of money he'd have to be willing to walk away from if he indeed wanted out. You just don't see it happen.

[vy65]

A player like Wemby walking away from a rookie extension is leaving an incredible amount of money on the table. Wemby could very well earn a rookie extension that is 30% of the cap should he win a DPOY or two in these rookie years. Judging by this year that is a very real possibility if not likelyhood. That amount of money he'd leave on the table and decided to leave the Spurs is immense. Then there are supermax implications later if he leaves as well. Its just a monumental amount of money he'd have to be willing to walk away from if he indeed wanted out. You just don't see it happen.

I agree with that. And, the glimpses of his character (liking deep nerd , thinking Vegas is dystopian) along with the TD/TP connection give me hope he’ll stay, along with the financial reasons you’ve detailed. That still leaves open the question of what the the team is doing and what direction they’ve set themselves on. They obviously have a huge part to play as well, and what we’ve seen from nearly 1/2 the season is troubling.

[Frenchfred]

People thinking Wemby is bolting after 4 years of not winning a championship are pretty damn foolish. The money will be a big factor and so will the fact that almost no draft picks in this situation are truly contnendors at that point in the time line.

it is not about winning a championship in the next 4 years but putting a team capable of competing in 4 years, i.e., the team needs to be good (OKC actual level) in 3 to give Wemby confidence that the Spurs can win. Money is important but Wemby made it pretty clear that he wants to win, I’m pretty sure that he would give up some money if that meant playing for a team competing for the championship. At the end, earning 250 millions or 180 millions, what’s the difference, that’s already a lot of money and plenty to live until he dies

[MannyIsGod]

it is not about winning a championship in the next 4 years but putting a team capable of competing in 4 years, i.e., the team needs to be good (OKC actual level) in 3 to give Wemby confidence that the Spurs can win. Money is important but Wemby made it pretty clear that he wants to win, I’m pretty sure that he would give up some money if that meant playing for a team competing for the championship. At the end, earning 250 millions or 180 millions, what’s the difference, that’s already a lot of money and plenty to live until he dies

And yet, players somehow all seem to pick the route with the most early career money. Which top pick recently has declined their rookie extension? Especially when the outcome is restricted FA. Giving up a lot of money to end up in the exact same place isn't a very good decision. People thinking Wemby won't be a Spur after his rookie contract because he walked away don't make much sense.

[scott]

The difference between a 25% max and a 30% on his second deal can easily be made up by the additional endorsement value that comes from being in a glamour market. Fortunately for us, it doesn't seem Wemby is all too interested in that.

[rogcl1]

I hope to god you’re right. It is re-assuring that even Kawhi re-upped with the team before pulling the bull that has traumatized the fans. But then that begs the question of what was the point of this year? It clearly hasn’t been to ac ulate draft capital - other than the Dallas trade, I don’t think the team has added any first round assets beyond a pick swap. I still have not heard an answer to why they needed another year of evaluating players that had at least 1 year’s tenure on the team to “see what they have.” So is the point to physically condition Wemby to play an NBA season? Maybe, but that’s not mutually exclusive of other deals that could be had. The Collins and Vessel extensions are concerning mysteries at this point. I get that Wemby shouldn’t move after his rookie deal is up, but to be this rudderless is at best confusing and at worst a signal to Vic that this team can’t put what he needs together. I hope I’m wrong, but there’s clearly no clear sense of purpose for this team - particularly given how horrific Vessel, Collins, etc are and have been.

This year of evaluation does not only involve the other players, it also involves seeing what Wemby has and what he can do and how to build around him for the future.

[MannyIsGod]

The difference between a 25% max and a 30% on his second deal can easily be made up by the additional endorsement value that comes from being in a glamour market. Fortunately for us, it doesn't seem Wemby is all too interested in that.

But other teams can't offer him a 25% max. And what they can offer, we can match in RFA or he has to play a year on a QO (in year 5) in order to reach UFA which is a of a gamble to take on long term security. The odds are incredibly stacked in the drafting teams favor here.

[buttsR4rebounding]

The difference between a 25% max and a 30% on his second deal can easily be made up by the additional endorsement value that comes from being in a glamour market. Fortunately for us, it doesn't seem Wemby is all too interested in that.

Not that easily. You’re talking about upwards of $10 million/ year of extra endorsements. Plus factor in the lack of a state income tax that comes with every glamour market except Miami and it’s a significant chunk of change.