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this from the moron who thought the spurs we surefire over in Vegas
The team is watchable. Winning and being watchable don't have to be the same thing. I basically agree with the take that you can't expect a team that was torn down to the studs is going to turn things around in one year. You have to use selective cognition to hold the team to a higher standard than most other rebuilding clubs. Like the poster who said the Spurs have spent more time in the lottery than anyone else while ignoring that they've been 9-12 in those years and the blatant lie given that Detroit and Charlotte have been in the lottery since 2017 rather than the Spurs only entering that range in 2020.
A lot of things I've said before could be applied here, and I'm not gonna spend a lot time just repeating those. Just briefly: Wemby is playing well, the team is playing with him better, due to the choices they made in the off-season it's in the team's best interest to lose, Wemby's not going to leave for years, and him not wanting to lose games is not a sign of trouble but a sign of him being a compe or. The thing about an uncomfortable period of time is that it only seems short in retrospect. During that time, it's lose and grueling and not all that fun.
I agree with the idea that fans who are struggling to find enjoyment right now take a break from watching the team. That's not because they aren't "true fans" or whatever. It's because the Spurs are at a point where they aren't going to even be in a position to make big changes for a while. It's like if you were on a transatlantic voyage and and were complaining about how stupid it is to be using a ship. It's like whether you're right or wrong, you're already on the ship and won't get off it until the trip is complete. The Spurs are in a very good position for the choice they've seemingly made. They have one good lotto pick and another that seems likely. They a young gold-chip prospect who's justifying his hype. Their second-best player has added a lot to his game. Their non-natural picks seem to be lining up to have good value. The Collins extension was an obvious miss, but it's the only black mark on the team's near future.
We've gone over how teams can accelerate badly and how often they make that choice. I'm happy they haven't already done that. They've chosen a different approach, and it's way too soon to determine if that was a mistake. I think even if they chose to accelerate going forward, this year will have played an important role in facilitating that. That cost of what they've gained was worth the small price of wearing on some folks' patience.
this from the moron who thought the spurs we surefire over in Vegas
OP is me once the spurs traded kawhi for demar.
I've been a Spurs fan for over 2 decades now. Like many of us, I've been spoiled by the beautiful, poetic, high level of basketball the spurs use to play. Man I miss those days!This season has been really painful to watch. Of course the only thing that's stopping me from turning of the tv wemby.
I completely understand that this team is young and learning but man last year's team was tanking and was better than this team. I don't think we were planning tanking this year. The level of IQ being displayed by some of the players who are in their 3rd or 4th year is shocking.
- Keldon has taken a step backward this year. Keldon's energy is great but his offensive game, defensive game and bball IQ has stalled.
- I'm really surprised why Champagne is on the court. He does not right. He's not making shots, can't create for himself or others, defense sucks, freakin he can't even make a simple pass to a 7'4 guy.
- Vassel's offensive game has grown but he's such a one dimensional player. He looks for his own shot first, he makes so many bad decisions on offense. The way he's developing, his game won't fit Wemby's.
- Sochan's offensive game is limited but man I love watching him play defense. Its a beauty to see him lock players on defense.
- Wesley is slowly gaining his confidence back and growing. I always thought that Wesley is a better prospect than branham.
- other guys like Collins, Branham, Osman we know they are not in the long term plans of the Spurs so they are not worth discussing
I understand that most of these guys won't be on the team next year. Hopefully the team next season is just smarter than this team. We can see how badly Wemby wants to win. Right now he's buying into the "Process" but the last thing Spurs want is a frustrated generational talent.
Sorry for my rant. I just needed this to get it off my chest lol
a real Point Guard will solve half of these problems.
It could also be that there is a succession plan with a HC short list that the plan is to get the crap years out of the way under pop to protect the new guy instead of having a coaching hotseat during the 3-4 year down period... The first two years of missed play-offs were somewhat accidental.
the worst part is they're not worried about charting a different course.
yeah, i posted early in the season that the spurs should do the opposite of what pop just said recently. the spurs should rush. don't wait years. if i'm wemby and next year is close to this year... i'm asking out tbh.
the spurs should've swung for the fences via trade early this season.
it's about struggling to find enjoyment due to lack of prospects on the roster. how do you manage to miss that ?? the spurs aren't okc when shai arrived. the spurs aren't the braintrust of the heat getting to the finals when they had no business doing so.
this analogy is absolutely dogshît.
Chinook's posts are 100% like his profile picture, he can't see outside of the pond that he's in.
he says you won't get off the ship until the trip is complete. how about all the people who died along their transatlantic voyage?
you should try selling water to a whale.
While I largely agree with scott's views.. some points of differences -
1. The Spurs are regressing in the last 7 years (since Nephew got Pachulia'ed) and haven't made the playoffs since 2018-19 when the Midrange Maestros (Demar and Lamarcus) went toe-to-toe with the early version of the Denver dynasty and lost 3-4 in a closely fought 1st round. His argument - no other Coach/ FO would have survived such a long regression or the absence of playoff basketball. I agree. Any other team would have fired its coach and hired someone else for a new rebuild during such a drought.
But there is a subtle difference within the Spurs. The Spurs went for a pivot away from the Leonard era by getting DeRozan, a relatively much more flawed player and tried to contend. And they reached a peak in 2018-19 and by that time LMA was declining too. The Spurs again tried to make hay with homegrown talent in Murray and White plus useful role players such as Poeltl, but I think Pop could only do so much with the talent he had and I think the Spurs did creditably to reach the play-in in the covid years ('20, '21 and '22).
2022-23 was the key season that the Spurs rightly used to go for a hard rebuild and they did well to luck into Wemby. I would discount this year from the seven that scott talked about. In the rest, the Spurs made the playoffs in two (17-18 and 18-19 despite losing a superstar out of pique), and made the play-in in three with just role players and one all-Star. Pop and his assistants could only do so much with the talent they had and I think they maximized it in terms of outcomes.
That means if 2022-23 is discounted, 2023-24 is the first truly bad season for Pop as a coach relative to the talent he had. The Spurs are still supposed to be bad, but with Wemby they should be better than 2022-23 but as many have rightly said, some key role players such as Keldon regressed, some made improvements but also had periods of regression (Sochan) and some are so bad that they showed little improvement (Branham).
But look at what happened in the six years since Nephew left - the Spurs got good picks in the late first round in White and Murray.. one of them developed into an All-Star while playing for the Spurs itself and the other is probably the best role player in the NBA today, thanks largely to great honing by Pop and co. Even Lonnie Walker has managed to stick in the league as a crucial bench player after disappointing to live upto his draft position (19th). And the only clear disappointments/ busts have been Samanic (19) and Primo (12). The blame for this has got to PATFO front office rather than the coaching staff.
2. The next question to be asked is.. even if the years since Nephew left are seen as utter failures, should Pop have resigned after we drafted Wemby or should he have continued as he did. The evidence from this season shows that the first choice seems more correct, but I think some credit has to go to Pop for developing Wemby's overall game and honing his mentality so well that he is outgrowing his already astounding learning curve relative to talent. So, in that sense, Pop should be given the chance to see what he can do with better talent around Wemby while helping Wemby reach further heights.
3. So, the sum and substance of what I am saying is that, yes, this season has been a huge disappointment and Coach Pop has been a relative failure compared to his own past and also other young coaches who have help mold contending teams with young talent- Taylor Jenkins with the Grizz (before Morant's moronic acts), Daigneault with Thunder and Mosley with Magic come to mind. But apart from Wemby and probably Vassell, no other player would have been starting with any of the other teams or even be in a core-eight lineup. While the starting lineup of all the other teams would walk into the Spurs' starting lineup around Wemby and the Spurs will be a far better side, maybe Wemby would have even been in a sure-shot championship contender, if say he was with the Thunder instead of Chet, despite an outstanding season by the latter.
In other words, it is the Front Office that is on the line now and not the coaching staff. The only true drawback for Pop is his age, I believe, but it seems that hasn't dulled his passion for the game.
Here's where I will agree with scott and others who are asking for accelerating the process around Wemby instead of it being played out in the form of draft picks, minor free agents, conservative trades and spending. Wemby is so good that the future is now. There is a good chance that the Spurs can contend for the playoffs next year while retaining up and coming talent, plus the ability to draft a game changer because they have enough FRPs and a load of seconds.
I wrote this in a lengthy prior post but the Spurs FO should go no holds barred on all three fronts in the offseason - Drafting, Trades and Free Agency. They must prioritise a two-play potential All-Star via trade and be willing to give up a portion of their draft treasure to get one. My choice has been Mikal Bridges who is gettable because the Nets suck, their owner has taken enormous losses and they need to bottom out to get better.
But the Spurs can also smartly utilise various factors such as the Celtics going to have a mountain of salary to pay next season with Brown's extension, the Warriors' going to try to break-up a chunk of their squad to wiggle out of their monstrous repeater tax (potentially making Klay Thompson and certainly Wiggins available), the Nuggets having to factor in luxury tax payments as small market team (and making someone like Aaron Gordon being available), the Clippers probably wanting to choose between Paul George and James Harden after having to pay hefty repeater tax (which Ballmer can easily afford, unfortunately), the T'wolves having to give up a useful role player or two to avoid luxury tax too (Naz Reid?), Phoenix potentially blowing it up and so on.
The Spurs must use their cap room and trade to address one key shortcoming around Wemby - the lack of a two-way wing beyond Vassell -- that won't be possible immediately through the draft. But they can use the draft in 2024 to get one more young talent who can use the Murray/White/ Anderson/Green/ Hill route to developing into a useful player. And they should also try to upgrade on PG by getting Tre's brother who is eminently gettable too and/ or get Topic to back up one of the Joneses.
The possibilities are immense if the Spurs apply a clear and aggressive stance to make the squad much better around Wemby without giving up on the ability to draft high in the future using some of their Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Chicago and their own picks. The alternative - being conservative, predicated upon the Hinkie method of using the draft or the Presti method (which worked largely because they got Shai in their bottoming out trades) will not be of great use to Wemby's growth and his ambition.
So Brian Wright is the one who should be on the hot-seat in the offseason. And if Wright fails to improve the squad and Pop repeats what we are seeing this season in 2024-25.. it should herald a complete reset of PATFO into completely new personnel both in coaching and in the FO. That is how the Spurs must plan for the immediate future.
Last edited by Spursfanfromafar; 02-27-2024 at 04:06 AM.
Nah, they're unwatchable. People are just checking Wemby's highlights on YT.
I find them unwatchable at times. Because they are really bad. The way the NBA is now, things get ugly quickly. I am enjoying the growth of Wemby, Sochan, and Vassell. But Sochan is super inconsistent, which is expected. Vassell is still too inconsistent, which is not expected. I've seen enough of Johnson and Jones to know what type of ceiling they will have. Brenham has been the most disappointing because the growth is too slow and stagnant this season, and Wesley has a shot to be a point of attack defender. Barlow is intriguing at best. The rest won't be in the NBA for long. Maybe Champeganie might have enough of skill set to find a future.
No, a lot of people are actually watching the games. I do agree there are plenty of folks who are seeing the highlights too, and that's how they come to the impression Wemby is farther along than he is. They think the good is him and the bad is everyone else, when in reality there has been a lot of evidence for Wemby needing to grow. No one can make you enjoying watching anything. Gambit admits the Spurs without Kawhi were unwatchable for him, and that's why he became a Raptors fan. For me, the 2017-2018 season was one of my favorites. I also had a lot of fun watching the 2021-2022 season. The full season matters less to me than the game-to-game endorphin hits. While Wemby is his own enjoyment, I'd be having fun watching Scoot, Miller or Thompson figure it out too. To me, I can't see OP's point at all. Letting someone like Champ be a point of frustration makes no sense to me.
It's about struggling to find enjoyment because a team that became bad enough to get the first-overall pick is still bad one year into having that pick. For years folks ed about the Spurs "not picking a lane". Now they pick one, and folks want them to switch. "Picking a lane" means sticking to a plan. You don't "blow it up" for one draft and then immediately have it back together.
I do think it's funny that you mention the Thunder as if they had a lot of prospects when SGA arrived. The only person still on the team from Shai's first year is Dort. That team had 10 other guys in their first three years, and only one of them made it. Somehow, the Thunder managed to survive.
The point is not "You're on a ship, so you'll be fine." The point is "You ing won't make the ship go faster, so STFU." I'm not surprised you missed that analogy. If you want to jump overboard and drown, that's your right. But for everyone else who isn't enjoying watching the ocean move by, I recommend just staying in their cabins for a while.he says you won't get off the ship until the trip is complete. how about all the people who died along their transatlantic voyage?
Sorry, but I am not missing out watching 30 minutes of Wemby each game. He is special and yes I shake my head a lot during games because of the incompetencies of this team. But two of the three last games were fun to watch.
Like it or not, I don't think the spurs are going to use those Atlanta picks for a big swing. This is how I see it based on what we know about the team and ownership right now:
1. Wemby is a cash cow for the franchise. Holt isn't an idiot, he will fire everybody if it means he gets to hang onto him for longer. There are literally billions of dollars at stake here, so ownership is way more motivated to keep him than casual fans like us who have little to no financial stake in the team. But more importantly, they want to hang onto him for as long as possible.
2. Spurs probably don't want to pay a ton of tax over the course of Wemby's career unless they get big financial backers. Holt is rich, but this isn't like Golden state going hundreds of million into the tax every year.
3. Salaries are getting big enough with mid-career guys that you have to have constant level of churn, even for core pieces, to avoid that luxury tax. The best way to avoid that is to have guys in the early to mid part of their career whose talent does not outstrip their salary.
4. This means that the Spurs would prefer a period of sustained excellence after the initial 3-4 years of pain where they are never a "dominant" team, but are always one of the best teams. They would prefer this to having a 5 year period of dominance followed by a decline where they're capped out or no longer have assets.
What's going to end up happening is that the Spurs are going to be bad for a while longer. Wemby is not going to ask out as long as he continues to see improvement and the team is on a reasonable trajectory to contention. As long as they are in contention by the end of his rookie contract (3 years from now) and he sees a reasonable path forward, he's not going to ask out. This is pure conjecture, but in my mind Wemby sees his path to GOAT as Duncan's longevity, ability to win, and importantly being with the same team for most if not all of his career combined with Wilt-like numbers. Maybe wishful thinking but he doesn't seem like the team-hopping type of guy like LeBron or Durant and would view that as something that diminishes his legacy. And even if he is clearly unhappy, it's a big step to assume he's going to take the qualifying offer just to be a free agent after his rookie deal ends. As bad as the product on the court is this year, the time to panic isn't right now.
The time to panic is probably spring of 2026. By that time Vassell will be 25 going on 26. He should be a borderline all-star at that point with the ability to score from all 3 levels efficiently. Sochan will be a 23 year old guy in his 4th season who should have cleaned up his jumper, and learned to play defense, and further developed his handles. You will have had almost 2 years to evaluate your high lottery picks from this summer. Until that time, I don't think you have enough evidence to say that this front office is incompetent with regards to evaluating talent. They missed badly on Primo, and they busted on Samanic relative to draft slot. Everyone else (even Lonnie Walker) has been at least a single relative to draft slot and often times more than that. The Hawks picks are probably the second best asset in the league right now after Houston's Nets picks, it looks like they're somehow threading the needle with the Raptors pick, and there may even be hope that the Bulls pick is able to thread the needle in the next few years. That at least shows some level of competence when it comes to evaluating talent on other teams. I just think it's too early to call out front office incompetence until you really get a feel for what they do in these next 2 years. Make no mistake, this summer is the single most important summer of the last decade, they up these 1-2 picks this summer badly enough and history says they're probably not keeping Wemby over the long term. But I'm willing to see what they do going forward and am still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.
Spursfanfromafar - you always have really solid, well thought out takes and I hope you post more often!
Whether the Spurs are watchable depends on what you want to watch. Good basketball? Nah, skip it. Clown shows? Plenty of that.
Wemby is the only reason the average person should bother to watch the Spurs. The team offers nothing else of any quality.
For fans, well, normal humans are social creatures, and the Spurs offer plenty to talk about. As we know.
What the future holds? Most likely, as long as the same characters are in charge the Spurs will present more of the same problems to talk about. A lousy roster, lousy coaching. The Spurs will continue to be losers as long as the people running the show are losers.
Who is against the Spurs trading or signing FA to get talent?
I don't know that any pick or player is off limits other than Wemby himself in any discussion we have had around here. With the Spurs benching KJ and admitting they overestimated their talent in self scout there is plenty writing on the wall.
Game threads barely reach 5-6 pages on here. And that includes the first presentation page... The last 4 pages are just "man, we suck so bad"...
the team is watchable in the first quarter. After that I usually turn the game off cause we down 20
I watch every game that isn't blacked out where I live (which tends to be LA-based teams). I definitely wouldn't call them unwatchable (unless I am a complete masochist), but you definitely have to approach each game with a different perspective than in years past. At this point, I agree with others that I'd like to see some more Dom, some Sidi, and maybe some increased run from Wesley. I don't think there is much more to be learned from watching Cedi (who I actually like for this team and hope we bring back) and Zach (who I don't like at all
Lots of good points -
2. Spurs probably don't want to pay a ton of tax over the course of Wemby's career unless they get big financial backers. Holt is rich, but this isn't like Golden state going hundreds of million into the tax every year.
True.
3. Salaries are getting big enough with mid-career guys that you have to have constant level of churn, even for core pieces, to avoid that luxury tax. The best way to avoid that is to have guys in the early to mid part of their career whose talent does not outstrip their salary.
Slight disagreement here. There are players out there who are No 3s, No 4s or even No 2s in contending teams, and in the mid part of their careers, who can be had by the Spurs till the time Wemby's own salary goes up to match his superstar status, when he reaches it. So from Wemby's 2nd year to his 4th year, if the Spurs can get another borderline all-star or a good two way player to pair with him and Vassell and make up the rest of the roster with good role players, they can still pay salaries close or just above the cap.
And then, when the draft talent that they identify from the remaining of the picks that the Spurs have, they can groom the next No 2 / 3 to Wemby and trade out the moderately played No 2/3. This process needn't always be draft-driven for salary purposes, is what I am saying.
4. This means that the Spurs would prefer a period of sustained excellence after the initial 3-4 years of pain where they are never a "dominant" team, but are always one of the best teams. They would prefer this to having a 5 year period of dominance followed by a decline where they're capped out or no longer have assets.
I am not sure the fan-base is keen on 3-4 years of pain after a run of 5 seasons of no playoffs and no contention. Gate prices will crash, interest will dwindle, Wemby's own motivation as a compe or will flag for sure. If by "pain", you mean the pain of losing in the 1st or 2nd round in the playoffs, that is another matter. That will be akin to what Duncan went through during the Lakers Kobe-Shaq domination period. It only made him even better a player.
For that kind of contention, you can wait for the drafts to help you out. You need to use the FA, trade market.
...
Make no mistake, this summer is the single most important summer of the last decade, they up these 1-2 picks this summer badly enough and history says they're probably not keeping Wemby over the long term. But I'm willing to see what they do going forward and am still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.
I am willing to give the benefit of doubt to PATFO too but the countdown starts in the 2024 offseason itself. Any more goof-ups like the atrocious Primo pick or lame trades to pick up non-playing veterans or those who will be cut and repeatedly playing turd lineups like Champagnie, Branham, Collins, Mamu etc to surround Wemby.. will test not only the fanbase's patience but that of Wemby himself.
This is just false. I can list off a ton of national media folks who have had plenty of criticisms of him over the past two years especially. It reached an all time high this year with his refusal to start a ing point guard for half the season.
You seem to struggle with the idea of generally.
Of all this, I'm reminded that the FO decided to reward all the season ticket holders who hung in with them to 20-25% raise in prices. We all know they are not going anywhere this season, but losing games in the last few minutes gets old. I'm in a quandary about who is staying. If our starting five remains the same so will our record. Perfect world if we acquire a PG and SF that's a step in the right direction. If they are both found in the draft we have a another season of learning the ropes. If we get a veteran PG maybe we pick up the pace next season.
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