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Well, I'm guessing he doesn't mean advanced metrics because Murray's are better.
That's what the Hawks' management thought Murray would also do and it turns out Trae can't play off ball.
Well, I'm guessing he doesn't mean advanced metrics because Murray's are better.
Trae can’t play off the ball, which is why the Trae/DJ back court didn’t work. He and Jokic would be oil and water.
Fair enough (I'm on the fence myself), but it may not be available, to where virtually everything lines up, when it's "ideal".
As far as his willingness to defer, I wouldn't be concerned with that here. Everyone knows Wembanyama is going to be a much bigger star and I think he'd accept that and concede that it's "his franchise" because he was here first.
Him being the target defensively in the playoffs especially is obviously a concern, but many times throughout history people thought something couldn't win, until it did. If he's the second best player to the player with the GOAT defensive ceiling, maybe he can.
Oh really? Cause that's not what BPM says. That's not what RAPTOR says. That's not what VORP says.
I'm not concerned with that either. He's on record saying Wemby could be the GOAT and that he needs peeople that help him make his life easier. His mental willigness I don't doubt, what I question is his capacity to be efficient off ball. He checks out when he doesn't have the ball on his hands. He doesn't move, he doesn't cut. He just stands still 5 feet from the 3pt line being a non-factor. I guess that can be coached, but still.
Young OBPM this year 4.9
Murray OBPM this year 4.0
Overall BPM
Young 2.6
Murray 3.5
Last year
Young OBPM 5.3
Murray 2.6
Overall BPM
Young 3.3
Murray 1.3
Career OBPM
Young 5.2
Murray 1.8
Overall BPM
Young 3.0
Murray 0.8
Career DBPM
Young -2.2
Murray -1
Young is a worse defender and there's no denying that, but Murray is not a good defender and has a better defense around him that hides this. Young is a FAR better offensive player despite your claims otherwise and over their career Young is overall the better player and its not even close according to advanced stats.
And before you start moving the goal posts, this is the standard you set. Its demonstrably wrong.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...layer-ratings/
This is only previous seasons since 538 is a s of its former self, but its the same as above.
Young
Off 4.9
Def -0.9
Tot 3.9
Murray
Off 3.6
Def -0.2
Tot 3.3
Same . So if by "pretty much everything" you mean nothing but defense then I concede. But basketball is more than just defense and it's not like Murray is a defensive player to begin with. He's a bit bigger but not really. He just has a ton of length around him and the best player in the NBA.
Using career stats to try and save face after realizing Murray's metrics were better this year.
Either way, this is still apples to oranges. I would like to see Young's metrics as a second option.
How is it wrong? Murray is the better defender, the better off ball player, the more efficient shooter. The only advantages Young has are because of the higher usage.
When did we limit it to one year? That's like me comparing the years Murray has been out. And even this year, Tre is better on the offensive side of the ball. I don't give a about saving face, the stats are right there. I'm having in discussion in good faith not trying to one some imaginary contest where you make up the rules as you go along.Using career stats to try and save face after realizing Murray's metrics were better this year.
Either way, this is still apples to oranges. I would like to see Young's metrics as a second option.
You clearly said Murray is better than Young as almost everything and even in THIS season, which is not what you said before, that is obviously wrong.
I'm not even a huge Young fan but you guys just ing make up bull about him all the ing time because you don't like him. The stats are right there. Keep making up bull if you want but its pretty damn transparent honestly. It makes for discussions when you all wont' even acknowledge reality.
First you want to talk about advanced stats and now you want to break up offense into sub categories. Murray isn't even the more efficient shooter! Young has a higher efg and true shooting. Like for s sake man. Murray is a league average 3 point shooter this year while Young is at 46%.
I don't have offball stats but I would be shocked if Young was better considering he doesn't play with this dude named Jokic, but the fact that even with that Young is substantially the betters shooter and you're trying to say otherwise is ridiculous.
DAF’s stuck in the past thinking the big three can be re-created just like that. And then you have these stat purists who say no to any player that doesn’t meet their criteria of uber-efficient players through their rudimentary understanding of stats.
I have no issue with Young, other than his game. Is that so difficult to comprehend? He's arguably the worst defender in the entire league, he has subpar efficiency for a star, he hasn't shown he can adapt to play off ball. Do you really have that hard of a time believing that there are many people that won't like that type of player?
I don't want to re-create anything, I'm just not willing to settle for, arguably, the worst "star" out there. Why is that so difficult to understand?
I have named plently of guys I'd be fine getting like Markkanen, Garland, Jrue Holiday, etc. In which ways would they re-create the big three?
its not about liking him or not liking him its about how you guys just make up about him. He's is inarguably a bad defender. The stats and eye test bear this out quite clearly. Jamal Murry is a bad defender, too. But the game isn't just about defense. How good you are on offense matters.
And OF COURSE he's not an off ball player. This is quite honestly the stupidest line of criticism I've seen. Young is one of the best offensive players in the league and by FAR the best player on his team. Why would he be expected to play off ball when he's their best on ball player? Why would they put the ball in someone elses hands when they are better by having it in his hands?
Murray has a 27.1% usage. Tre is at 30%. OH NO THE INSANE USAGE DIFFERENCE.
There is something wrong with your head. You have obviously totally forgotten the point of talking about this.
The point is very tall, and one of his nicknames is Wemby.
Who has higher assist numbers, much higher in fact, Murray or Young?
Give an honest, straightforward answer to that question, and don’t lie.
So which of the two should be better, much better, at feeding Wemby?
That’s the point.
It isn’t about Murray and Young going 1 on 1 against each other. That has nothing to do with anything.
Are you really sure that the “only” advantage Young has is “higher usage?” Really?
You have so completely lost track that you’re going on about things without thinking about Wemby.
Ya dummy.
I mean if we're talking about players that aren't going to be moved then why limit it to these? I personally would love to see Wemby play with Anthony Edwards and I definitely would rather see than that Wemby with Young. Wemby Tatum would also be amazing. Wemby Luka!!! Wemby SGA would just be ing great too. Wonder why we're not talking about any of these pairings and instead talking about Young?I don't want to re-create anything, I'm just not willing to settle for, arguably, the worst "star" out there. Why is that so difficult to understand?
I have named plently of guys I'd be fine getting like Markkanen, Garland, Jrue Holiday, etc. In which ways would they re-create the big three?
What did I make up about him?
Well, we arguing his fit next to Wemby here. If he comes here, he's gonna be playing off ball a ton and so far he hasn't shown he can be efficient in that role.And OF COURSE he's not an off ball player. This is quite honestly the stupidest line of criticism I've seen. Young is one of the best offensive players in the league and by FAR the best player on his team. Why would he be expected to play off ball when he's their best on ball player? Why would they put the ball in someone elses hands when they are better by having it in his hands?
.....why would you expect Young to play offball to Wemby? I definitely would not want that and I don't see how anyone who has watched Wemby this year thinks that would be a good idea.
This is such a dumb ing post that I don't know why the I take the time to answer seriously.
Having more assists doesn't equal being the better passer. Many times it means having the ball in your hands more. Dejounte in his last season with the Spurs averaged over 9 assists per game, as soon as he teamed up with Young, DJ's assists went down to 6. Did Murray suddenly became a lesser passer or did he just had the ball in his hands less?
It is laughable that this is the kind of basketball debate you have to have with some people here. And the funniest part is that he's the one callong others "dumb".
Because Wemby would be the #1 option and Trae the #2. Or do you want Young to suck the air out of the ball like he does in Atlanta while Wemby watches?
No. Not really. Trae is one of the best on ball offensive players, but like Luka, he needs possessions off and that's when a secondary play maker is required, like Irving or Brunson. The same as prime LeBron, he always wanted another guard despite him being one of the best on ball players in history. The issue for Murray and the hawks was that they needed Murray to defend the best guards, which usually is the shooting guard. Tee can't guard down like Luka can just defend a ty wing player. Murray can't defend 2s as well as defending 1s. And the hawks have no flexibility on the roster to deal with that issue. That's the issue, Murray can't coexist with Trae on defense. You can say that's Trae fault, sure. But the Hawks blew their load on the wrong player.
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