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You didn’t follow the conversation. I love Herb Jones, but DeMuure said the Pels wouldn’t take anything less than a star in return, which is just plain foolishness. Back in the day, no one would have traded Kobe or even Ray Allen for Bowen.
You mean OKC (the model to follow if I'm listening to the spurs) went from bottom to top of the league and contender in 2 years..
And how did they got there? By trading for a star PG to play with their young phenom rookie center (who was actually out the first year).
Interesting.
You didn’t follow the conversation. I love Herb Jones, but DeMuure said the Pels wouldn’t take anything less than a star in return, which is just plain foolishness. Back in the day, no one would have traded Kobe or even Ray Allen for Bowen.
I followed the conversation, I just started a new one, tbh.
Because if you want to build a championship contender, some role players are more valuable that some former MVPs. You have more chances of winning a championship with a Bruce Bowen on your roster, than a Russell Westbrook.
A Westbrook elevates your floor, a Bowen elevetes your ceiling.
On this specific Spurs case what I'm trying to say is that if you want to have a bigger chance of getting to the playoffs next season, you are better off getting Trae Young than Herb Jones; but if the goal is to build a champonship contender in the long run, you are better off getting Herb Jones and looking for a true championship level 2nd guy somwhere down the road.
Last edited by DAF86; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:29 AM.
LOL ok. This is nonsense. Herb Jones won't make as much as Trae, nor will he get back as much in a trade. He's a good player, but he does not in any way move the needle the way a player like Trae Young does. This is a Mike Greenburg level of take like saying UCONN could beat NBA teams. Just outlandish.
If you already HAVE a championship core, THEN I could see teh argument of Herb Jones being more valuable. But if you want to make one? There are way more Herb Jones in the leagues than Trae Youngs. This isn't even debatable.
Im just going simplified here and it all wont be done in one off season - this is a multi year build:
But everyone outside of Wemby and to a lesser degree Devin+Sochan is on the block. Spurs need a complete overhaul of players at least 6-15 if not 4-15. It wont happen all this off season and maybe we see some leaps from Branham, Blake, etc…but Spurs are going to need major upgrades and change
Everyone who is not Wemby (and again to lesser degree Dev + Sochan) needs to be fighting for a reason to be kept or have a rotation spot as high as they do this season.
So what I would like to see at a minimum, is 5 guys over turned this off season. Hopefully Spurs draft two guys in the lottery assuming we get lucky with the TOR pick conveying.
We see at least 1 trade and maybe 2 free agent signings.
That is 5 “new” players with 5 current guys replaced.
If you want to build a championship core, I don't think a guy like Trae Young gets it done. Not as a second option, nor third. In fact, the lower he gets into the ranks within the team, the less useful he gets. I would argue having Herb as the 4th (or even 3rd) best player of your team, is more conductive to champinship level aspirations than a guy like Young.
So my reasoning is the following:
Herb or Young as your 2nd best player = no championship
Herb or Young as your 3rd best player = likely no championship either
Herb as your 4th best player = elite championship piece
Young as your 4th best player = an awful fit
That's why I would rather have a Herb Jones than a Trae Young if my aspiration is to build a championship core. If the aspiration is to get better sooner but never trully contend, then, yeah, go get Trae.
Since you think Young can't be the second or even third best player on a championship team, it makes perfect sense that you wouldn't want the Spurs to get him at all.
The idea that if I replace Jamal Murray with Trae Young that Denver is somehow a worse team last year is crazy to me.
Unfortunately, others then getting lucky in the lottery ( emphasize lottery)I don't have any faith in this current FO putting together a compe ive team.
The conservative approach will not work until they have at least a core and you can't build a core spending time developing scrubs.
The argument is wholly predicated on the fact that you don't like Young (which is completely fine). But replace Young with another all-star player and the argument starts to fall apart. I like the way you put it earlier: Trae raises your floor but Herb raises your ceiling. I think that is another way of saying that your stars set the range of outcomes - but all the complementary pieces are what fine tune and optimize your team and allow you to reach the upper range of outcomes that your stars provide. In the end, you need those stars AND you need those complementary pieces (duh), but a second star next to Wemby is going to elevate the range of outcomes for a Herb Jones-like player to help us optimize.
This is a fantastic post. I get that Trae Young is not a good fit for every team out there but I just think people really need to stop the hyperbole around him. The idea that Young's deficiencies somehow make him unable to win a Championship in any scenario as a 2nd star is just insane to me. There have been other guards who have won as score first guards who aren't good defenders. The example of Jamal Murray above is one such player and one who is not nearly as good as Young on offensive!
Herb Jones and role players like him are valuable and vitally important but lets be real. There's a reason why players like Young get a max contracts and why players like Jones don't and it isn't because everyone else's evaluation systems are wrong.
Well they would be worse because Murray is a better player. More efficient, better defender, and most importantly can play within a system instead of being the system. Oh and he has one more thing working for him - unlike Young, he raises his game in the playoffs.
Oh, but they would definitely be. Trae is worse at pretty much everything.
Well, yeah, but I'm not arguing I would rather add Herb Jones over any all-star. I'm saying I would rather add Herb Jones over what I consider extremely flawed all-stars like a Trae Young or prime Westbrook.
Yeah, but not just any all-star. You have to choose the right ones, that's why I want no part of Trae Young.I like the way you put it earlier: Trae raises your floor but Herb raises your ceiling. I think that is another way of saying that your stars set the range of outcomes - but all the complementary pieces are what fine tune and optimize your team and allow you to reach the upper range of outcomes that your stars provide. In the end, you need those stars AND you need those complementary pieces (duh), but a second star next to Wemby is going to elevate the range of outcomes for a Herb Jones-like player to help us optimize.
By all means make the statistical case for it because its not what I see when I look at the actual numbers. Jamal is a slightly better defender, I'll definitely grant you that, but Trae young's offensive numbers are substantially better and that is without the benefit of playing alongside Jokic (which also applies to the his defensive numbers FWIW).
Just to be clear, I was responding to posts suggesting Herb could be had for Keldon Johnson + a FRP, and my point was he's valued in New Orleans and fits the team very well, so I don't think they'd include him in a trade unless it was as part of a package for a big upgrade. I wasn't saying that Herb is a star.
But I'd argue that another of his qualities is that as a defense first guy, he'll also never demand the salary that Trae can, as an offense first/little-to-no D guy. Adding Herb wouldn't handcuff a team financially the way a Trae contract would, either now or in the future.
Last edited by R. DeMurre; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:24 AM.
You guys do realize that stats are a thing, right? That you can't just make up and it somehow becomes reality, right?
Well, isn't that an esqueletic ass analysis.
Since when "more counting stats" = better player? Was Westbrook the best player in the World when he was averaging a 30pts triple double, or was he just a shameless statpadder?
Years of watching Duncan, Manu and Spurs basketball didn't teach you anything?
Do you really think Trae would be able to mantain his counting stats having to defer to Jokic?
That's just it; you don't get to. No one in their right mind would pick Young or any small guard even near the top (now that Paul is ancient and Curry is old) if given their druthers, but it doesn't work that way.
Between that, having a GOAT caliber prospect, a desperate need for someone with his skillset and the goods to make the move, it's why the Spurs will be virtually forced to at least give it serious consideration if he becomes available.
I would rather wait a little before making a desperate move like that, tbh.
The idea of Trae Young to San Antonio gives me pause only because of the potentially hefty price tag, but why wouldn't he improve in San Antonio?
After Dejounte, who is the best teammate he's ever had? Bogdanovic? Jalen Johnson? Clint Capela? Atlanta has been AWFUL at surrounding him with talent. It's easy to point at his shooting percentages and wonder if he's overrated, but the team context has made it impossible for him to be more efficient. The one year that they advanced in the playoffs (2021 when they beat New York in convincing fashion and added fuel to the fire in Philly over Ben Simmons) was on Trae's back. Having Victor (and Vassell for that matter, in comparison to the talent in Atlanta) would make his life so much easier.
MannyIsGod didn't say counting stats. Only you did.
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