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  1. #76
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    A sign-and-trade for PG13 is interesting. The Clippers' future drafts are completely ed: they owe their 2024/2026/2028 firsts outright and other teams have swap rights with them in 2025/2027/2029. They don't have any second round picks at all from 2025 to 2029.

    If George wants to come to San Antonio, the Spurs want him, and they can agree on a contract (he will likely want at least 4/190), the Spurs have plenty of assets to get the deal done. Keldon and Collins provide enough matching salary and the Spurs have extra picks for days.

    There is no way Ballmer will let George go over money, especially with the Clippers moving into a new arena, so the only way this would happen is if George threatens to walk if he doesn't get dealt to the Spurs. Certainly a longshot.

    That's a huge contract for someone who will be 34 to start next season, but if the Spurs really want to win now it's hard to imagine a better free agent. If George wants to be a Spur he will know that he's going to be at best the second option, and probably more like 2a/2b with Vassell. There would be no reason to trade for Trae Young at that point. A starting lineup of Tre Jones/Vassell/George/Sochan/Wemby is definitely playable, especially if Jones's 3 point shooting as a starter can carry over.
    i think george is much more likely to go to philly if he leaves the clippers

    but yeah PG is probably my dream scenario. and he absolutely would not be in a 2a/2b situation with vassell, he'd clearly be ahead of him in the pecking order

  2. #77
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    Skimming through this, so many delusional takes in terms of potentially available names, what it would take to get them, disregarding whether they'd fit the precious "culture" (which is always the number one consideration from PATFO), etc.

    From a big move perspective, I would keep an eye on Giannis situation….
    At thinking he'll be attainable. Big ego, fiercely compe ive, guard like skilled big man in probably his late prime (considering how athletically reliant he is) is going to want to age into being the Robinson to Wembanyama's Duncan? Not good for the "legacy".

    If/when he wants out, the Thunder will be the overwhelming favorites. Best assets, would fill a need, out of conference and a more natural fit with Gilgeous-Alexander.

  3. #78
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    Ingram is an interesting target tbh. His injury history is concerning though.

  4. #79
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Ingram is an interesting target tbh. His injury history is concerning though.
    It’s also what could make the pelicans inclined to trade him in the first place. Tho they aren’t in cap trouble just yet

  5. #80
    Still Sporting Ben Davis Allan Rowe vs Wade's Avatar
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    light a candle wemby stays healthy

    that's it

  6. #81
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    Ingram is an interesting target tbh. His injury history is concerning though.
    That and he's overrated.

    The thing with him, Murray and Garland is, if they're to be traded, that means Young, Mitc and Williamson aren't, which means those remain win now situations so pick based packages probably aren't going to be their number one priority.

    The Pelicans supposedly had interest in Murray at the deadline and have long sought a rim protecting C. I could see Murray and Capela for Ingram and Nance Jr.

  7. #82
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    i definitely paused for a bit to process the full scope of chinook's scenario. instinctively didnt like it, seeing the ATL 25. but the more i thought the more i realized its quite a good deal tbh, though im not sure the other teams would do it.

    you are also getting back 22 in this year's draft and portis is quite a good player too. finding a natural way to offload zollins is nice, and you still hang onto keldon has a future trade chip as well.
    The Hawks would do this trade as an attempt to go all-in around Trae and Johnson. They can take Zach into a TE and basically make two new TEs for Murray and Capela in addition to the two firsts and two high-seconds. That gives them a lot of firepower to try to get some help.

    Milwaukee is rumored to be interested in Murray, and they simply don't have the picks to get a trade done. They have to trade ballast that can bring picks from a third team, and Middleton and Portis seem to be it. Of course, they could try to redirect Lillard, but that would be a tough pill for the team to swallow, and swapping out Dame for DeJounte doesn't actually get the Bucks closer to a le.

    Giving up a potential lottery pick with ATL25 makes this an overpay. Don’t like Middleton; he’s had injury issues in the past, played 55 games this year, and is 32 years old. Not saying that he’s a hard no - but I’d be more comfortable giving us SAS25 than ATL25 in that deal.
    ATL25 would be the Hawks' price for letting the Spurs into the conversation. I don't see it as negotiable, so the next step would be to see how much value the Spurs could get for that pick. There are other second teams that could want Murray and/or Young and trade players the Spurs might want. This was my pick for ideal scenario because Middleton checks all the boxes and Portis is probably the second-best flex big in the league right now with Horford declining. I also think there is talent in the second half of the first that should be part of the discussion, especially if the Toronto pick doesn't convey. Considering the real chance ATL gets its together next year after a trade like this, I'm okay with giving up the pick here.

    Would be a hard no for me. Old and injury prone isn't a good combination and if Milwaukee is trading him they're probably blowing everything up anyways because Giannis asked out. In which case just offer Milwaukee picks, swaps, Keldon, and maybe Devin for Giannis.
    As mentioned, the Bucks are looking to retool around Giannis in the same way they were about him when they traded Holiday. They would struggle to come up with a credible offer for Murray without trading one or Lillard or Middleton, and I doubt their intention is to swap Dame out for a borderline All-Star after they gave up so much to get him. So I don't see any reason why Giannis would be on the table.

    Anyway, I don't actually see Middleton's condition as a huge downer, seeing as the Spurs just drafted a high-upside SF in this scenario who would already be slated to take over from Khris anyway. That Holland would get some starts in during the season doesn't particularly bother me, and having a guy who knows how to be an elite perimeter defender there to teach a guy with all the physical tools to do the same seems like a huge bonus. This isn't supposed to be an off-season scenario that sees them become contenders. It's one more appropriate to where Wemby actually is and more of an evolution from where I think the team SHOULD have been this year had they brought in some lower-level vets and let them compete for minutes with the young guys. It's racheting up that compe ion while ultimately supporting the growth of the young guys.

  8. #83
    Veteran heyheymymy's Avatar
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    Dilly/Holland would be a nice pairing imo
    Been looking at tons of diff combos should the TOR convey and that's indeed an interesting pairing I've yet to consider, thanks. My main priority is at least one shooter and guard/wing combo though I've been looking at two guard parings as well.

  9. #84
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    The Hawks would do this trade as an attempt to go all-in around Trae and Johnson. They can take Zach into a TE and basically make two new TEs for Murray and Capela in addition to the two firsts and two high-seconds. That gives them a lot of firepower to try to get some help.

    Milwaukee is rumored to be interested in Murray, and they simply don't have the picks to get a trade done. They have to trade ballast that can bring picks from a third team, and Middleton and Portis seem to be it. Of course, they could try to redirect Lillard, but that would be a tough pill for the team to swallow, and swapping out Dame for DeJounte doesn't actually get the Bucks closer to a le.



    ATL25 would be the Hawks' price for letting the Spurs into the conversation. I don't see it as negotiable, so the next step would be to see how much value the Spurs could get for that pick. There are other second teams that could want Murray and/or Young and trade players the Spurs might want. This was my pick for ideal scenario because Middleton checks all the boxes and Portis is probably the second-best flex big in the league right now with Horford declining. I also think there is talent in the second half of the first that should be part of the discussion, especially if the Toronto pick doesn't convey. Considering the real chance ATL gets its together next year after a trade like this, I'm okay with giving up the pick here.



    As mentioned, the Bucks are looking to retool around Giannis in the same way they were about him when they traded Holiday. They would struggle to come up with a credible offer for Murray without trading one or Lillard or Middleton, and I doubt their intention is to swap Dame out for a borderline All-Star after they gave up so much to get him. So I don't see any reason why Giannis would be on the table.

    Anyway, I don't actually see Middleton's condition as a huge downer, seeing as the Spurs just drafted a high-upside SF in this scenario who would already be slated to take over from Khris anyway. That Holland would get some starts in during the season doesn't particularly bother me, and having a guy who knows how to be an elite perimeter defender there to teach a guy with all the physical tools to do the same seems like a huge bonus. This isn't supposed to be an off-season scenario that sees them become contenders. It's one more appropriate to where Wemby actually is and more of an evolution from where I think the team SHOULD have been this year had they brought in some lower-level vets and let them compete for minutes with the young guys. It's racheting up that compe ion while ultimately supporting the growth of the young guys.
    Those Atlanta picks and the swap are far and away the best trading chips the Spurs have and the 25 pick is the best asset of the three. You gotta get something better than the middle of the downswing of Middleton's career in the best case for that 25 pick. Holland is nowhere near a good enough prospect to throw away a 25 mid to late lottery pick for a past his prime used to be a secondary star who would only be under contract for one more year and becomes a very expensive free agent the year the new TV / Streaming deal kicks in.
    Last edited by baseline bum; 04-16-2024 at 11:33 PM.

  10. #85
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Those Atlanta picks and the swap are far and away the best trading chips the Spurs have and the 25 pick is the best asset of the three. You gotta get something better than the middle of the downswing of Middleton's career in the best case for that 25 pick. Holland is nowhere near a good enough prospect to throw away a 25 mid to late lottery pick for a past his prime secondary star who would only be under contract for one more year and becomes a very expensive free agent the year the new TV / Streaming deal kicks in.
    I'm not really worried about Middleton opting out if he's anything but spectacular next year. If he is, the pejoratives you're using wouldn't apply. , I'd argue that a Middleton playing well enough to seriously consider opting out of that last year would be a great trade piece if the Spurs don't think they can re-sign him. If he's more limited to the point where opting in is an overpay, he still provides the intangibles the team needs. Given his familiarity with Pop, I thin the team would know if they think Khris would be a locker room issue.

    The 2025 ATL pick is not really valuable in a world where the Hawks keep Young and trade Murray as a way to get win-now help. They're on track to get the 10th pick this year and shouldn't be worse next year. I'd say the 2026 swap and 2027 are more likely to convey a high pick because that's after the period where the Young trade window truly opens up.

    Anyway, the team is trying to win les, not free agencies. They should be making moves to reinforce and widen their window and not blow it chasing names like basically every team who's failed to hold onto a generational talent has done. Of course, I can't make you like Middleton, but I'd rather him for this price than Young for his projected price every day of the week.

  11. #86
    Veteran cutewizard's Avatar
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    Whiteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee is coming

  12. #87
    Veteran cutewizard's Avatar
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    Sign Kai Sotto

  13. #88
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    I'm not really worried about Middleton opting out if he's anything but spectacular next year. If he is, the pejoratives you're using wouldn't apply. , I'd argue that a Middleton playing well enough to seriously consider opting out of that last year would be a great trade piece if the Spurs don't think they can re-sign him. If he's more limited to the point where opting in is an overpay, he still provides the intangibles the team needs. Given his familiarity with Pop, I thin the team would know if they think Khris would be a locker room issue.

    The 2025 ATL pick is not really valuable in a world where the Hawks keep Young and trade Murray as a way to get win-now help. They're on track to get the 10th pick this year and shouldn't be worse next year. I'd say the 2026 swap and 2027 are more likely to convey a high pick because that's after the period where the Young trade window truly opens up.

    Anyway, the team is trying to win les, not free agencies. They should be making moves to reinforce and widen their window and not blow it chasing names like basically every team who's failed to hold onto a generational talent has done. Of course, I can't make you like Middleton, but I'd rather him for this price than Young for his projected price every day of the week.
    Completely disagree, Atlanta tried to trade Murray for win now help this year and all they got offered was D'Angelo Russell. That 25 Hawks pick is likely to be a lottery pick for a much better draft you're giving away to try to groom a prospect who looks to have very high bust potential. Keldon's more the kind of trade piece I'd use to go after a vet mentor.

  14. #89
    Veteran cutewizard's Avatar
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    Klay with 0 points

  15. #90
    Veteran playbonner15's Avatar
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    why?

  16. #91
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    such a bad draft yet everyone wants that Toronto pick to convey?
    I hope Toronto keeps their pick, and Spurs draft Sheppard

    then I hope they make a Collins/Keldon trade during the season with a team that needs to change course or blow it up

  17. #92
    Believe. Em-City's Avatar
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    Yeah, I didn't put you in that camp. If I had to basically build different buckets for folks to fall in, I think I'd draw them up this way:

    Group A: This roster needs a major overhaul ASAP. Everyone but Wemby must go NOW. (Plenty of people on this board fall in here)
    Group B: This roster needs a major overhaul, but not quite as drastic and with some semblance of long-term vision in mind. Within 2 seasons the core 10-man rotation should look pretty different. (I'd put myself here)
    Group C: We should look to improve the roster via the draft and frugal moves. Don't spend too much to maintain flexibility for a potential big move TBD at some point in the future should it present itself. (I'd put you here, DPG)
    Group D: Run it back, this roster is good enough, just needs time to develop. (Where Mr. Body appears to be)

    We could undoubtedly come up with a lot of shades of gray between these, but these are the main buckets IMO. I'd curious and what bucket posters fall into... but mostly I am hoping to see some roster constructions that people would want to pursue this offseason based on what we know now.
    You should make a poll tbh

  18. #93
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    doesnt dame want out of the bucks? then again from bucks to spurs is still teh same city for a rich stud who just wants to living it up and fck hot es...

    how about that pos CP3?

  19. #94
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    such a bad draft yet everyone wants that Toronto pick to convey?
    I hope Toronto keeps their pick, and Spurs draft Sheppard

    then I hope they make a Collins/Keldon trade during the season with a team that needs to change course or blow it up
    Mostly because the Spurs need players now so they don't have another 22 win season and because they should have three firsts next year even if the Toronto pick conveys this season thanks to the Chicago pick they own.

  20. #95
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Completely disagree, Atlanta tried to trade Murray for win now help this year and all they got offered was D'Angelo Russell. That 25 Hawks pick is likely to be a lottery pick for a much better draft you're giving away to try to groom a prospect who looks to have very high bust potential. Keldon's more the kind of trade piece I'd use to go after a vet mentor.
    It's hard to agree with this. Like we don't know what ATL was actually offered. We only know they didn't do a trade. It was an odd strategy to trade DeJounte mid-season anyway, and the way he finished the year should reassure folks that he's actually a decent player rather than getting spooked the way they did by the Hawks' reported fervor to make a move. Moreover, the Hawks aren't trading Murray for win-now help in his trade. They're trading him for the ability to offer a number of picks for a win-now player and to create big trade exceptions to facilitate that. We don't know Atlanta's true plan of course. But an Atlanta that wants and is able to do this trade would probably be one that can make the improvements they need to take advantage of the 2025 tankaton coming up.

    Draft picks aren't lottery tickets. The Spurs shouldn't draft Holland or anyone thinking of them that way. He's either going to succeed or fail based on his development, not some random dice roll. If they're going to draft two guys in the top 10, they should definitely support them. Not doing so is how you get the jerky development that Wesley, Branham and Sochan have received. Most folks want the Spurs to draft wings and forwards, and whoever they pick should get the same level of support and not be forced to start. The time for starting prospects and giving young guys guaranteed minutes is over.

    Finally, mentors aren't cheap, especially not good ones who can stabilize a locker room and lead on the court. The Nuggets didn't trade for Millsap, but he cost $90M/3 when they signed him, which in today's cap dollars would be $127M/3. That's less than what Middleton and Portis make combined. I've talked a lot about the benefits these guys would have for the team leveling up. It's not just Holland who would be supported here. Vassell gets another vet wing to learn from with a skill-set a bit closer to his own. Dillingham gets a guy who can help take play-making pressure off him. Sochan gets another good to switch with. Wemby gets a very good compliment both as his main backup who has already proven he can play next to other bigs and Giannis. If the goal is to win les, this is a much better step toward that than trading for Young is. They can trade less now to get to a point where a Young trade potentially puts them over the top rather than trade for him now, still not be close to being a contender and be forced to give him a giant extension while hoping to acquire the depth to win.

  21. #96
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    It's hard to agree with this. Like we don't know what ATL was actually offered. We only know they didn't do a trade. It was an odd strategy to trade DeJounte mid-season anyway, and the way he finished the year should reassure folks that he's actually a decent player rather than getting spooked the way they did by the Hawks' reported fervor to make a move. Moreover, the Hawks aren't trading Murray for win-now help in his trade. They're trading him for the ability to offer a number of picks for a win-now player and to create big trade exceptions to facilitate that. We don't know Atlanta's true plan of course. But an Atlanta that wants and is able to do this trade would probably be one that can make the improvements they need to take advantage of the 2025 tankaton coming up.

    Draft picks aren't lottery tickets. The Spurs shouldn't draft Holland or anyone thinking of them that way. He's either going to succeed or fail based on his development, not some random dice roll. If they're going to draft two guys in the top 10, they should definitely support them. Not doing so is how you get the jerky development that Wesley, Branham and Sochan have received. Most folks want the Spurs to draft wings and forwards, and whoever they pick should get the same level of support and not be forced to start. The time for starting prospects and giving young guys guaranteed minutes is over.

    Finally, mentors aren't cheap, especially not good ones who can stabilize a locker room and lead on the court. The Nuggets didn't trade for Millsap, but he cost $90M/3 when they signed him, which in today's cap dollars would be $127M/3. That's less than what Middleton and Portis make combined. I've talked a lot about the benefits these guys would have for the team leveling up. It's not just Holland who would be supported here. Vassell gets another vet wing to learn from with a skill-set a bit closer to his own. Dillingham gets a guy who can help take play-making pressure off him. Sochan gets another good to switch with. Wemby gets a very good compliment both as his main backup who has already proven he can play next to other bigs and Giannis. If the goal is to win les, this is a much better step toward that than trading for Young is. They can trade less now to get to a point where a Young trade potentially puts them over the top rather than trade for him now, still not be close to being a contender and be forced to give him a giant extension while hoping to acquire the depth to win.
    You want to give away the Spurs best trade asset in the hope it improves an extremely high risk draft choice when that draft pick you're sending out is very likely to be a better prospect than Holland. If you want a veteran mentor to teach the young guys how to play defense and what it takes to win les Klay would be way cheaper both in terms of assets needed to make the deal and dollars paid out, assuming you'd have wanted Middleton for more than a one season rental.

  22. #97
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    You want to give away the Spurs best trade asset in the hope it improves an extremely high risk draft choice when that draft pick you're sending out is very likely to be a better prospect than Holland. If you want a veteran mentor to teach the young guys how to play defense and what it takes to win les Klay would be way cheaper both in terms of assets needed to make the deal and dollars paid out, assuming you'd have wanted Middleton for more than a one season rental.
    You insisting ATL25 is the best asset isn't the same thing as it actually being so. It's based on a number of assumptions you're equating with facts or even consensus. I'm not saying you can't think whatever you want. But I think you should adjust your framing a bit.

    I also think the impulse you have for the Spurs to be cheap in this transitional stage would put the team at risk if it's shared by PATFO. Thompson and Middleton aren't comparable pieces. Klay is pretty cooked and was pretty one-dimensional even when he had good games. He was always a non-factor on offense outside of scoring and had overrated defense even before he lost his mobility. I've never heard even a good thing about Thompson in the locker room, whereas Middleton has been noted as a strong presence. I'm not saying that the team shouldn't have Klay as a backup plan, but I don't think it's particularly close who's the better option for starting SF.

    Trading ATL25 for two better fits and a 2024 first makes sense to me rather than trading what folks think is a negative contract in Johnson, using only the modest amount of cap space the team has to try to haggle for talent. You're welcome to have the opposite opinion there. For me, these transitional years are extremely important in terms of building up the core talent around Wemby. They won't be able to afford to buy it all when the time comes. I don't believe the Spurs NEED to trade ATL25 or anything, but they shouldn't go into the fall banking on that becoming something great. It's more important in my mind that they give the 2024 and earlier guys the best chance they have to develop before they take on a full win-now posture. They won't do that bargain shopping or dismissing their prospects because the grass under next year's draft crop looks greener.

  23. #98
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    You insisting ATL25 is the best asset isn't the same thing as it actually being so. It's based on a number of assumptions you're equating with facts or even consensus. I'm not saying you can't think whatever you want. But I think you should adjust your framing a bit.

    I also think the impulse you have for the Spurs to be cheap in this transitional stage would put the team at risk if it's shared by PATFO. Thompson and Middleton aren't comparable pieces. Klay is pretty cooked and was pretty one-dimensional even when he had good games. He was always a non-factor on offense outside of scoring and had overrated defense even before he lost his mobility. I've never heard even a good thing about Thompson in the locker room, whereas Middleton has been noted as a strong presence. I'm not saying that the team shouldn't have Klay as a backup plan, but I don't think it's particularly close who's the better option for starting SF.

    Trading ATL25 for two better fits and a 2024 first makes sense to me rather than trading what folks think is a negative contract in Johnson, using only the modest amount of cap space the team has to try to haggle for talent. You're welcome to have the opposite opinion there. For me, these transitional years are extremely important in terms of building up the core talent around Wemby. They won't be able to afford to buy it all when the time comes. I don't believe the Spurs NEED to trade ATL25 or anything, but they shouldn't go into the fall banking on that becoming something great. It's more important in my mind that they give the 2024 and earlier guys the best chance they have to develop before they take on a full win-now posture. They won't do that bargain shopping or dismissing their prospects because the grass under next year's draft crop looks greener.
    The Atlanta 25 pick is the Spurs best trade asset because it's a likely lottery pick, unprotected, in what's expected to be a very strong draft and would convey soon. Keldon has already shown he can't play with Wemby which is why he was rightfully demoted to the bench in favor of a guy who should be an eighth or ninth man in a playoff team's rotation at best in Champagnie, and his trade value is likely to only decrease from here on out. Especially if the Spurs pick a forward like Holland as you're arguing for. Which is why I would move him this summer for a better fitting veteran. That pick is way too important to give away for a stopgap. I don't know why you're so against Trae who would instantly solve our PG problem and be someone they could still build longterm around. Then the Spurs could use their own picks plus the MLE in future years to try to find rotation players to put around Wemby, Trae, and hopefully Vassell. And that 25 pick could really be incredible if the Hawks panic and say trade Trae to the Lakers for their picks and Reaves; then we could be talking top 5. And #22 in this draft, gross.

  24. #99
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    Yeah, I didn't put you in that camp. If I had to basically build different buckets for folks to fall in, I think I'd draw them up this way:

    Group A: This roster needs a major overhaul ASAP. Everyone but Wemby must go NOW. (Plenty of people on this board fall in here)
    Group B: This roster needs a major overhaul, but not quite as drastic and with some semblance of long-term vision in mind. Within 2 seasons the core 10-man rotation should look pretty different. (I'd put myself here)
    Group C: We should look to improve the roster via the draft and frugal moves. Don't spend too much to maintain flexibility for a potential big move TBD at some point in the future should it present itself. (I'd put you here, DPG)
    Group D: Run it back, this roster is good enough, just needs time to develop. (Where Mr. Body appears to be)

    We could undoubtedly come up with a lot of shades of gray between these, but these are the main buckets IMO. I'd curious and what bucket posters fall into... but mostly I am hoping to see some roster constructions that people would want to pursue this offseason based on what we know now.
    I was a mixture of B and C before the season. There was every reason to believe we'd be over on the Vegas win prediction.

    Not any longer. I'm firmly B leaning hard towards A. If by the ASB of 2025 we are not fighting for the play-in, PATFO has ed up. It's honestly that simple - for me. I understand many will likely disagree with this, but it just reeks of saving money and squeezing every drop of $$ out of the city if they don't have winning, at least enough for a play-in spot, in their sights for season 2. Wemby and the fanbase deserve better. It was a bit different in the 90s, I'd wager, though I was too young to have an opinion about such "complex" sports topics. The reason being, the Spurs hadn't won a 'ship. We're now 5 deep, and if we don't win, we are underachieving. That is the new reality, whether or not PATFO want to accept it. Again, this is all just my opinion and based off of your groupings, Scott. Not a direct response to the exchange that was occurring in the post.

    Circling round, therefore, my ideal off-season would be picking up one of the two Atlanta players on the trading block - preferably Trae Young. However, I'd be ok with DJM as well. I can't comment on the draft until we know our position. From there, we've got choices. I wouldn't be against trading a #1 pick in this draft at all, however, if it netted us someone who can help us win now. I'm trusting PATFO - one last time - to do the right thing here. I think they do have the ability, but do they have the balls?

  25. #100
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