Call Your Ideal Off-Season

[KobesAchilles]

There are zero people I still want on this team in two years time. Get rid of half this season and the other half next season. None of the starters on our team fits with Wemby. They are either not good enough (in Jones and Champ) too one dimensional in Vassell, or just undersized and not skilled at enough in Sochan.And too those idiots who claim to "wait and see," I will permaban myself if any of those players make an all-star team in our jersey. He is surrounded by bad basketball players. It doesn't help that they are too dumb to know how to play too.

As far as our bench go, Collins, Graham, and Mumu have to go. Tbh we could replace all our bench too and I would be ok with that. But if you want to wait on Branham and Wesley to somehow miraculously learn how to play basketball to where they would actually be useful on a winning team, it won't happen, then we can keep them for one more season. But again they will be gone in two years as well.

So my team is Wemby, FRP, FRP and that's it.

Also ideal is Pop is fired. The dude can't coach anymore. He's lost whatever it was that made him a good coach. You can still be very knowledgeable and be bad at coaching. It happens to older coaches all the time. He has no idea how to connect with this team to teach them how to do anything positive

[jesterbobman]

Chinooks Middleton / Portis option is pretty good, if we want to get better, we have to give up assets. I think it's too early for a full all in move (s), but some draft assets for good players is fine.

Everyone is going to have differing opinions on draft prospects and the exact guys, but the concept of getting real contributing vets, and building the roster up so that the development of young guys is in meaningful roles that are close to what they're best at, with some room to move around and stretch a bit is pretty important. Good vets, in both the aspect of being good players who contribute to winning, and have a meaningful, respected voice in the locker room is valuable.

The other detailed thing that I'd think of as a dream / ideal is moving down in the draft after the lottery, getting off of Collins.

Dallas went from 10 -> 12 last year to get off of Bertans' contract, which is (IMO) similar in negative value to Zach's deal. This draft doesn't seem as strong, but if we could move down from 5 to 8 or so (or 1 to 3, or ...) and get off Collins (and still get the player we wanted at 5, as this is such a beauty in the eye of the beholder draft) that'd be perfect.

[Chinook]

The Atlanta 25 pick is the Spurs best trade asset because it's a likely lottery pick, unprotected, in what's expected to be a very strong draft and would convey soon.

It's not necessarily a lotto pick. The Hawks will have nothing to tank for next year (this year, they chose to accept a tank because they could keep their pick), and multiple other teams will have an incentive to tank just as they did for 2023. So even if they stay the same, the bottom half of the league will be worse. Young's most likely trade window would be in 2025-2026 from July to Feburary. That's when the Hawks would be at real risk of bottoming out whether they want to or not and why the 2026 and 2027 picks could easily be more valuable. It doesn't hurt that 2026 has the Boozer twins rather than just Flagg, meaning there's a higher chance of getting one.

Keldon has already shown he can't play with Wemby which is why he was rightfully demoted to the bench in favor of a guy who should be an eighth or ninth man in a playoff team's rotation at best in Champagnie, and his trade value is likely to only decrease from here on out.

Who cares? You don't trade players because they suck. That you think Keldon has little value but should be used to bring in a mentor is another way of saying you want a mentor for cheap. You can want that, sure. But we aren't disagreeing on the value difference between the two, like you might be assuming.

That pick is way too important to give away for a stopgap.

It's not a stop gap. Next year is important, even though it's quite unlikely to end with a deep playoff run. The point of Middleton and Portis is to level the young guys up, not to take up space. Getting Wemby to something close to his final form is the path to a le, which is facilitated by a support structure. Pretending his already there and blowing assets on lesser win-now pieces is a slower path.

I don't know why you're so against Trae who would instantly solve our PG problem and be someone they could still build longterm around.

The Spurs are building around Wemby long term. That's going to mean rotating in multiple supporting casts. I don't think it's wise at all to value Young beyond what he will provide on his current contract. His age is a hindrance here, not a help. The Spurs have never been a team that's won les with stars who are all the same age. Most winning teams don't have that either. There are better win-now and win-later pathways than Young, Mitc and Markkanen.

Then the Spurs could use their own picks plus the MLE in future years to try to find rotation players to put around Wemby, Trae, and hopefully Vassell. And that 25 pick could really be incredible if the Hawks panic and say trade Trae to the Lakers for their picks and Reaves; then we could be talking top 5.

You say that like it's an opportunity rather than a sentence. The Spurs would be restricted to lesser means to fill out their roster. They lock themselves into a core way too soon or let Young walk and have pissed away those assets for a worse version of Middleton.

You seem to be relying on the Hawks making an awful trade at the worst team but then passing that off like it's a reasonable outcome. If the Hawks have their 2025 pick, they might do that, which means the 2026 and 2027 picks legit gain a boost. If they don't have their pick, they probably don't make a panic move in the middle of the season, because they're likely to get back worse picks.

And #22 in this draft, gross.

Players are not dice.

[mo7888]

It's not necessarily a lotto pick. The Hawks will have nothing to tank for next year (this year, they chose to accept a tank because they could keep their pick), and multiple other teams will have an incentive to tank just as they did for 2023. So even if they stay the same, the bottom half of the league will be worse. Young's most likely trade window would be in 2025-2026 from July to Feburary. That's when the Hawks would be at real risk of bottoming out whether they want to or not and why the 2026 and 2027 picks could easily be more valuable. It doesn't hurt that 2026 has the Boozer twins rather than just Flagg, meaning there's a higher chance of getting one.



Who cares? You don't trade players because they suck. That you think Keldon has little value but should be used to bring in a mentor is another way of saying you want a mentor for cheap. You can want that, sure. But we aren't disagreeing on the value difference between the two, like you might be assuming.



It's not a stop gap. Next year is important, even though it's quite unlikely to end with a deep playoff run. The point of Middleton and Portis is to level the young guys up, not to take up space. Getting Wemby to something close to his final form is the path to a le, which is facilitated by a support structure. Pretending his already there and blowing assets on lesser win-now pieces is a slower path.



The Spurs are building around Wemby long term. That's going to mean rotating in multiple supporting casts. I don't think it's wise at all to value Young beyond what he will provide on his current contract. His age is a hindrance here, not a help. The Spurs have never been a team that's won les with stars who are all the same age. Most winning teams don't have that either. There are better win-now and win-later pathways than Young, Mitc and Markkanen.



You say that like it's an opportunity rather than a sentence. The Spurs would be restricted to lesser means to fill out their roster. They lock themselves into a core way too soon or let Young walk and have pissed away those assets for a worse version of Middleton.

You seem to be relying on the Hawks making an awful trade at the worst team but then passing that off like it's a reasonable outcome. If the Hawks have their 2025 pick, they might do that, which means the 2026 and 2027 picks legit gain a boost. If they don't have their pick, they probably don't make a panic move in the middle of the season, because they're likely to get back worse picks.



Players are not dice.

To your point about the 26 draft, it also has AJ Dybantsa at the top...

[baseline bum]

It's not necessarily a lotto pick. The Hawks will have nothing to tank for next year (this year, they chose to accept a tank because they could keep their pick), and multiple other teams will have an incentive to tank just as they did for 2023. So even if they stay the same, the bottom half of the league will be worse. Young's most likely trade window would be in 2025-2026 from July to Feburary. That's when the Hawks would be at real risk of bottoming out whether they want to or not and why the 2026 and 2027 picks could easily be more valuable. It doesn't hurt that 2026 has the Boozer twins rather than just Flagg, meaning there's a higher chance of getting one.

I don't buy this year was a tank for them. But fine, they might be an 8-seed in a really bad case scenario where they bring the band back and you draft #15 in what's expected to be a really solid draft. I think it's more likely they keep being a team with poor chemistry frustrated with each other and you end up with a mid to late lottery pick instead. Or maybe you get lucky and they have injuries or panic and trade Trae to the Lakers for Reaves and picks and you're in the Cooper Flagg / Ace Bailey hunt with that pick.

Who cares? You don't trade players because they suck. That you think Keldon has little value but should be used to bring in a mentor is another way of saying you want a mentor for cheap. You can want that, sure. But we aren't disagreeing on the value difference between the two, like you might be assuming.

Yes, I want to trade assets not very useful to this team as opposed to assets that are critically important to put talent around Victor.

It's not a stop gap. Next year is important, even though it's quite unlikely to end with a deep playoff run. The point of Middleton and Portis is to level the young guys up, not to take up space. Getting Wemby to something close to his final form is the path to a le, which is facilitated by a support structure. Pretending his already there and blowing assets on lesser win-now pieces is a slower path.

It's an expensive trade to make. What makes you think Middleton is going to turn Holland into Kawhi? And Portis, the guy who beat his teammate's ass in practice and sent him to the hospital? He's going to level up the young guys? Plus Middleton has one year remaining on his deal before he can opt out, and he surely will with the cap likely to jump a good amount from a new TV/streaming deal in 25-26. So you either give a big raise to the 34 year old or you let him walk and then you really have pissed a great asset away for little in return.

The Spurs are building around Wemby long term. That's going to mean rotating in multiple supporting casts. I don't think it's wise at all to value Young beyond what he will provide on his current contract. His age is a hindrance here, not a help. The Spurs have never been a team that's won les with stars who are all the same age. Most winning teams don't have that either. There are better win-now and win-later pathways than Young, Mitc and Markkanen.

So don't put a talented PG next to Wemby because he'll grow his game better in a bottom tier offense? How is being 25 a hindrance for Young? It means he's still probably in his prime as Victor begins hitting his and you hopefully built up some real chemistry by the time Wemby is a top 5 player in the league. Also can't sell short how excited Young would likely be to play here given he grew up a Spurs fan and the way he raves about Wemby to the media every chance he gets.

And the bolded part? Tim is like a year older than Manu.

You say that like it's an opportunity rather than a sentence. The Spurs would be restricted to lesser means to fill out their roster. They lock themselves into a core way too soon or let Young walk and have pissed away those assets for a worse version of Middleton.

So lock themselves into 34 year-old Middleton instead in the summer of 25? Or let him walk and pray cap space gets you someone?

You seem to be relying on the Hawks making an awful trade at the worst team but then passing that off like it's a reasonable outcome. If the Hawks have their 2025 pick, they might do that, which means the 2026 and 2027 picks legit gain a boost. If they don't have their pick, they probably don't make a panic move in the middle of the season, because they're likely to get back worse picks.

I don't think it's an awful trade for a team going nowhere that gets a chance to blow it up and tank for what look to be two very strong drafts. Something like the ATL 25+27, ripping up the 26 swap, and the Chicago 25 pick plus salary is way better than they're likely to get anywhere else.

Players are not dice.

Draft picks in the 20s are absolutely rolls of the dice, and especially in a weak draft. Looks like they rolled snake eyes with Branham and Wesley for example.

[scott]

I don't buy this year was a tank for them. But fine, they might be an 8-seed in a really bad case scenario where they bring the band back and you draft #15 in what's expected to be a really solid draft.

One important note... you're saying that pick #15 in next year's "strong draft" will be valuable, but next year is only considered a strong draft because of Flagg and Bailey at the top. From 3-15, it may in fact end up being utter , we just don't know yet. This year was actually supposed to be a strong year for PG prospects, but a lot of the top names (Collier, Wagner, Proctor) just ended up not living up to expectations. So I think the basic idea that maybe you're better off trading a potential #15 next year (ATL25) for Middleton, Portis and #22 this year isn't all that bad. If that ATL25 ends up being a top 2 pick however, then you're going to have some regrets of course.

I don't think Chinook's idea is all that bad from a value perspective, I just don't like it because Middleton is a little TOO ripe on the vine for my liking AND I don't want 3 FRPs this year. I'm less concerned about Middleton opting out as I am him opting in, tbh. I think that $33MM in 2025-26 is going to be well above his market value at that point and he'll opt in and you're stuck with an old guy not worth his salary for a year.

[baseline bum]

One important note... you're saying that pick #15 in next year's "strong draft" will be valuable, but next year is only considered a strong draft because of Flagg and Bailey at the top. From 3-15, it may in fact end up being utter , we just don't know yet. This year was actually supposed to be a strong year for PG prospects, but a lot of the top names (Collier, Wagner, Proctor) just ended up not living up to expectations. So I think the basic idea that maybe you're better off trading a potential #15 next year (ATL25) for Middleton, Portis and #22 this year isn't all that bad. If that ATL25 ends up being a top 2 pick however, then you're going to have some regrets of course.

I don't think Chinook's idea is all that bad from a value perspective, I just don't like it because Middleton is a little TOO ripe on the vine for my liking AND I don't want 3 FRPs this year. I'm less concerned about Middleton opting out as I am him opting in, tbh. I think that $33MM in 2025-26 is going to be well above his market value at that point and he'll opt in and you're stuck with an old guy not worth his salary for a year.

Are you not expecting a jump in the cap from a new TV/streaming deal kicking in the year he can opt out? My expectation is a new contract for Middleton would close most of the gap with the money Young has due that people are scared of. I mean Van Vleet got Trae Young money last summer.

And I have #15 as a worst case scenario for that pick. I expect the Atlanta 2025 pick to be better than Holland or Cody Williams or Jakobe Walter who would be the player Middleton would supposedly be brought in to mentor. If you can get Middleton for Keldon and change by all means I'd be for it but I don't want to give up such a great asset in the Atlanta 25 unprotected pick for a guy who is past his prime and seems to be injured a lot. That's not going to get any better with age.

Anyways, pooling lottery picks is how you can trade for stars and I don't want to peel one off, probably the best one off, just for Middleton.

[timtonymanu]

Anything but “run back the same 22 win team.” Knowing pop though, we’re giving extensions to sochan and calling it an offseason.

[timtonymanu]

There are zero people I still want on this team in two years time. Get rid of half this season and the other half next season. None of the starters on our team fits with Wemby. They are either not good enough (in Jones and Champ) too one dimensional in Vassell, or just undersized and not skilled at enough in Sochan.And too those idiots who claim to "wait and see," I will permaban myself if any of those players make an all-star team in our jersey. He is surrounded by bad basketball players. It doesn't help that they are too dumb to know how to play too.

As far as our bench go, Collins, Graham, and Mumu have to go. Tbh we could replace all our bench too and I would be ok with that. But if you want to wait on Branham and Wesley to somehow miraculously learn how to play basketball to where they would actually be useful on a winning team, it won't happen, then we can keep them for one more season. But again they will be gone in two years as well.

So my team is Wemby, FRP, FRP and that's it.

Also ideal is Pop is fired. The dude can't coach anymore. He's lost whatever it was that made him a good coach. You can still be very knowledgeable and be bad at coaching. It happens to older coaches all the time. He has no idea how to connect with this team to teach them how to do anything positive

These idiots keep comparing our young guys to Manu like they’re gonna break out without realizing Manu was already fundamentally talented.

[MultiTroll]

I just don't like it because Middleton is a little TOO ripe on the vine for my liking AND I don't want 3 FRPs this year. I'm less concerned about Middleton opting out as I am him opting in, tbh. I think that $33MM in 2025-26 is going to be well above his market value at that point and he'll opt in and you're stuck with an old guy not worth his salary for a year.

Followed Middleton for years. His Championship was definitely the apex and he's been injured / declining ever since.
Short of some Kobme / Lebron level PEDs and Lebron/Brady level dieting, he will continue to decline.

I don't buy the mentorship thing at all. Who the mentored this years Spurs to NOT throw a farking pass that a 9 year old could do?

Timmy Dunks, GNob and Parker occasionally if not often are around and yet look at the ish that took place.

That having been said, yes i would take Middleton for 1 year only, next season. He fills about 5 needs the Spurs are lacking in. If he could give 20 minutes per game either starting or coming off the bench would be very helpful.

[scott]

Are you not expecting a jump in the cap from a new TV/streaming deal kicking in the year he can opt out? My expectation is a new contract for Middleton would close most of the gap with the money Young has due that people are scared of. I mean Van Vleet got Trae Young money last summer.

And I have #15 as a worst case scenario for that pick. I expect the Atlanta 2025 pick to be better than Holland or Cody Williams or Jakobe Walter who would be the player Middleton would supposedly be brought in to mentor. If you can get Middleton for Keldon and change by all means I'd be for it but I don't want to give up such a great asset in the Atlanta 25 unprotected pick for a guy who is past his prime and seems to be injured a lot. That's not going to get any better with age.

Anyways, pooling lottery picks is how you can trade for stars and I don't want to peel one off, probably the best one off, just for Middleton.

I think whatever new TV/streaming deal to come is already priced into the salary cap. IIRC, the maximum per-year increase in the cap is 10% per the new CBA, so even if the cap maxes out at $155MM, Middleton's opt-in will be 21.29% of the cap. I personally do not think 34-year old Khris Middleton is going to do better than his $33MM opt-in number (21.29% of the cap).

Even if the Atlanta pick projects at number 8 (12.3% chance at a top-2 pick), my point is that we don't know that 2025's draft will be any stronger than this year's after pick 2 (and even then, we are still just projecting though we have a fairly strong degree of confidence). So I wouldn't simply assume that a pick next year is better than a pick this year. A lot of folks (not you, per se) have said they'd rather the TOR pick convey next year when it will be a stronger draft... but picks 7 and onward may be just as terrible as this year's. We don't know.

[baseline bum]

I think whatever new TV/streaming deal to come is already priced into the salary cap. IIRC, the maximum per-year increase in the cap is 10% per the new CBA, so even if the cap maxes out at $155MM, Middleton's opt-in will be 21.29% of the cap. I personally do not think 34-year old Khris Middleton is going to do better than his $33MM opt-in number (21.29% of the cap).

Even if the Atlanta pick projects at number 8 (12.3% chance at a top-2 pick), my point is that we don't know that 2025's draft will be any stronger than this year's after pick 2 (and even then, we are still just projecting though we have a fairly strong degree of confidence). So I wouldn't simply assume that a pick next year is better than a pick this year. A lot of folks (not you, per se) have said they'd rather the TOR pick convey next year when it will be a stronger draft... but picks 7 and onward may be just as terrible as this year's. We don't know.

IDK the FVV contract gets me thinking there will be good money on the market for Middleton in 25 with a ~15% higher salary cap than FVV signed under.

I'm conditioning on this looking to be the tiest draft since at least 2013, but probably even worse with no one who looks to be an enormous upside swing like Giannis was that year. I mean is there anyone in this draft you have any excitement about? Dillingham is it for me, but I expect there is no way in the Spurs will take him since they like drafting big PGs in the first ever since George Hill.

[Chinook]

I don't buy this year was a tank for them. But fine, they might be an 8-seed in a really bad case scenario where they bring the band back and you draft #15 in what's expected to be a really solid draft. I think it's more likely they keep being a team with poor chemistry frustrated with each other and you end up with a mid to late lottery pick instead. Or maybe you get lucky and they have injuries or panic and trade Trae to the Lakers for Reaves and picks and you're in the Cooper Flagg / Ace Bailey hunt with that pick.

Eh, I had a response typed, but it was just getting silly how long it was. I think we're at the point were we're both dug into our positions, and unless something happens to actually make the debate relevant, we will just go back and forth on something not likely to matter.

[DAF86]

-If the Raptors' pick conveys, I want to end up with a PG/wing combo of Dillingham/Sheppard and Risacher/Buzellis.

-Draft Ulrich Chomche with the second round pick.

-Sign Royce O'neale.

-Convince Batum to play one more season so that he can team-up with the eventual French GOAT.

Depth chart:

-Tre / Dilly-Sheppard / Wesley
-Vassell / Keldon / Branham
-Risacher-Buzellis / O'Neale / Champaigne
-Sochan / Batum / Chomche
-Wemby / Collins / Barlow

Just go into next season and see if the improvement shown at the end is for real. Keep your options open for a midseason or 2025 offseason splash.

[TDMVPDPOY]

mike conley anyone? vet pg

[skin27]

mike conley anyone? vet pg

Its better to pick dillingham or topic

[tbdog]

mike conley anyone? vet pg

Signed a no trade clause extension

[CGD]

Anything but “run back the same 22 win team.” Knowing pop though, we’re giving extensions to sochan and calling it an offseason.

I’m all for the improvements, but I’m also encouraged that the Spurs had a record of 11-16 after the All-Star Game. Obviously we can’t project that it will carry over neatly into the next year, but adding a few pick and pieces around the edges could get them in the mix for the play-in. That, while holding their powder dry for a right trade down the road.

Seems like a smart goal for next year.

[Pauleta14]

-If the Raptors' pick conveys, I want to end up with a PG/wing combo of Dillingham/Sheppard and Risacher/Buzellis.

-Draft Ulrich Chomche with the second round pick.

-Sign Royce O'neale.

-Convince Batum to play one more season so that he can team-up with the eventual French GOAT.

Depth chart:

-Tre / Dilly-Sheppard / Wesley
-Vassell / Keldon / Branham
-Risacher-Buzellis / O'Neale / Champaigne
-Sochan / Batum / Chomche
-Wemby / Collins / Barlow

Just go into next season and see if the improvement shown at the end is for real. Keep your options open for a midseason or 2025 offseason splash.

Bring Brogdon instead of Wesley (can play 1-2, mentor and shoot the 3)

Bring a real defensive big instead of Barlow. Collins is un-tradable, could be better offensively but will alwaya suck on D. We need inside presence wehn Vic is on the bench

Batum is my hope for months but his hype has gone way up with his game vs the Heat. They already love him in Philly so it'll be tough imo

[DAF86]

I’m all for the improvements, but I’m also encouraged that the Spurs had a record of 11-16 after the All-Star Game. Obviously we can’t project that it will carry over neatly into the next year, but adding a few pick and pieces around the edges could get them in the mix for the play-in. That, while holding their powder dry for a right trade down the road.

Seems like a smart goal for next year.

This past season's record was hindered by Pop playing mad scientist to start the season, Wemby's minutes restriction, and just blatant tanking at the end.

Just playing Wemby around 35 minutes should increase the victories. Also, the lineup of Tre, Vassell, Keldon, Sochan and Wemby was the 5th best in the entire league at some point. The Spurs' record should be a lot better just by Pop playing the right rotation. Add lottery talent and a couple of veterans to the mix and, yeah, I think that would provide all the improvement you need to see from year 1 to year 2, while giving you more time to really assess how to build a serious contender in the near future, instead of rushing the process and giving up vital assets to build a pretender sooner.

[baseline bum]

This past season's record was hindered by Pop playing mad scientist to start the season, Wemby's minutes restriction, and just blatant tanking at the end.

Just playing Wemby around 35 minutes should increase the victories. Also, the lineup of Tre, Vassell, Keldon, Sochan and Wemby was the 5th best in the entire league at some point. The Spurs' record should be a lot better just by Pop playing the right rotation. Add lottery talent and a couple of veterans to the mix and, yeah, I think that would provide all the improvement you need to see from year 1 to year 2, while giving you more time to really assess how to build a contender in the near future.

The blatant tanking at the end might have helped the record since no more Vassell and Keldon calling their own numbers

[DAF86]

The blatant tanking at the end might have helped the record since no more Vassell and Keldon calling their own numbers

You skipped the part where those players were part of the 5th best lineup in the NBA at some point, tbh.

[baseline bum]

You skipped the part where those players were part of the 5th best lineup in the NBA at some point, tbh.

What point was that? Keldon looked terrible next to Wemby. Vassell was playing great defense early on but seemed to get lazy on it by 30 games into the season.

[DAF86]

What point was that? Keldon looked terrible next to Wemby. Vassell was playing great defense early on but seemed to get lazy on it by 30 games into the season.

Don't remember exactly, but it was well into the season, past the all-star break.

[spurraider21]

-If the Raptors' pick conveys, I want to end up with a PG/wing combo of Dillingham/Sheppard and Risacher/Buzellis.

-Draft Ulrich Chomche with the second round pick.

-Sign Royce O'neale.

-Convince Batum to play one more season so that he can team-up with the eventual French GOAT.

Depth chart:

-Tre / Dilly-Sheppard / Wesley
-Vassell / Keldon / Branham
-Risacher-Buzellis / O'Neale / Champaigne
-Sochan / Batum / Chomche
-Wemby / Collins / Barlow

Just go into next season and see if the improvement shown at the end is for real. Keep your options open for a midseason or 2025 offseason splash.

i agree with all the bolded, though i know you wont like it, i'd add Holland to the list of wings.

im not as crazy about O'Neale as others, but he'd be fine. batum would be awesome on a one year deal but i dont see it happening.