Call Your Ideal Off-Season

[TD 21]

You love to bring up insecurity/fear of the S bag saga, yet you do the same with the team x who drafted "generational" prospect and it didn't pan out at least to the level intended (as if it'd be destined to be the Spurs fate).

You also love to bring up stages to championship contention, yet act like any significant trade would be the end game as far as their assets are concerned.

[Chinook]

I'm aware and was speaking generally.

Even so, you might want to operate within' the basis of reality and if you follow the league closely enough, you'd know that Middleton isn't going anywhere as long as Antetokounmpo is around and Portis wouldn't fit their precious "culture".

You're far from the only one, but this is the one I scrolled across and I don't care enough to bother going through the rest.

Why might I want to operate within the basis of reality when it comes to what PATFO wants in a thread about what I would want? That doesn't make sense on the face of it. This is accepting the idea you keep pushing about the Spurs avoiding "hood culture" and the assumption that Portis is part of that culture. There happens to be a thread already about a "realistic off-season" where folks are supposed to cleave as snuggly as they can to reality.

As far as Middleton goes, as I said, we'll see. The Bucks were trying to make a trade for Murray this season according to reports. They have no picks and nothing else of value to make such a deal. Middleton is definitely third behind Giannis and Lillard when it comes to guys the team would avoid moving last year. Giannis will eventually have to decide what he wants more, because he probably won't be able to call shots on a true contender for much longer. He's too far in his career, too expensive and has forced the Bucks into too many expensive moves for those dots to line up.

Of course, there are other scenarios out there to talk about.

[scott]

Usually when trades happen, players opt out of their options to get longer deals.
I don't see a reason why would 33 year old Middleton want to join the Spurs only to get the same contract security he would with the Bucks and to be out of contract as a 34 year old, injury prone veteran.
Tbh, idk why are we even discussing him. As long as Giannis is with the Bucks, Middleton will also be there.



Yeah, it's a given that Collins+Keldon are a perfect package for salary matching.
If we're going Harden route, my next move would be to call the Nets.
Keldon+Collins for Bridges+DFS. With 2 FRPs. Chicago and Toronto.
Or even Bridges+Cam Johnson, but that would likely require one more pick. Or anyone on the roster except Jeremy if they're into any of our scrubs.
I'd maybe even consider Devin for Bridges straight up.

Harden/Tre
Devin/Branham
Bridges/rookie
DFS/Sochan
Wemby/veteran (Drummond or Plumlee)

Guaranteed play-in team, would still keep all the valuable picks and cap flexibility because there would be no contracts running past 2026.

With that being said, no chance Harden comes here, but getting him would be ideal.

I hate that we are even discussing Harden being a Spur. He tops my list of Never-Spurs.

I do like the idea of Bridges, however, if we could find a way to get Bridges, Cam Johnson and Cam Thomas (Thomas I consider to be a prototypical sixth man).

Edit: wrote "third man" instead of "sixth man" in regards to Thomas.

[Chinook]

You love to bring up insecurity/fear of the S bag saga, yet you do the same with the team x who drafted "generational" prospect and it didn't pan out at least to the level intended.

So no. Being scarred about one player asking out in his seventh year and using that to worry about a rookie asking out is way different than looking at trends of teams overleveraging themselves trying to build and contender and seeing their star walk. As you were just high-fiving yourself about, the situations with Davis, Zion, Lebron, etc follow the league "reality", while the Kawhi situation is completely divorced from Wemby's situation in basically every way besides both players being on the Spurs.

You also love to bring up stages to championship contention, yet act like any significant trade would be the end game as far as their assets are concerned.

So I've typed too many words in your "Be Patient for Who" thread for you to act like I didn't give multiple ideas for major trades or explain why the specific trades we're talking about are bad. Trading for Mitc , Young, Markkanen and even Bridges isn't a major move compared to acquring Middleton and drafting Holland and Dillingham. Both are attempts to address the short- and long-term needs of the club. The former does so by trying to split the difference at a premium for a guy who will be good now and in the future, while the latter covers both bases with different players with a hopefully graceful transition between the two but with the added benefit of costing less. I think the team should be built sustainably if there isn't a chance to bring in a championship centerpiece to pair with Wemby. Durant is now becoming more realistic, but the team would have to protect a fair bit of assets from the negotiation which might back it too hard to pull out. But if they could get Durant and draft a PG while holding onto Vassell and Sochan, it would be a no-brainer. Better than any of those other guys by a mile.

[LeBowen]

Yes, like Middleton might take a paycut and lesser role to stay. Guys who are popular on here are going to be in the back half of their primes and at the peak of their earning potential. It's very unlikely the NBA culture shifts enough that fast in order for it to be kosher to give up money to form a good team.

My bad, should've clarified better. I wasn't talking about Middleton who'd already be 34/35 when he takes the paycut, but potential co-stars in their prime.
Like for example 30 year old Bridges or Trae giving Spurs a discount instead of pushing them into cap .

This is insecurity brought on by Leonard's situation. It's not rational to worry about that. Wemby doesn't actually give off vibes that he wants his teammates gone. That's fans and the media assuming it. He seems to like his teammates and probably hopes to win with them. Given that the team was much closer to a .500 club after the ASB, I don't think Wemby's as worried as you are.

Actually, it's just my opinion on current roster.
I've seen all 164 games from these past two seasons and I don't think anyone on the roster except Devin and Jeremy is worth keeping past 2025.
Wesley and Branham will get another year because there's space on the roster, but no way they get another contract.
If we talk current trajectories, Devin needs to take another step or he's not worth that contract. On his current level, he's a ~20M per year player in my eyes.
Jeremy as things stand now can be a glue guy off the bench. SlowMo role, more or less.
Others are just scrubs.

I've given my opinion on what the Spurs could do that is nothing like what you're proposing. They don't have to make some overpay for meh "young" players in an attempt to build a long-lasting team around Victor. They need to embrace how evanescent the NBA is and bring in guys who can be good examples in the locker room and on the court while the young players develop. The first mistake that teams that lose their star do is try to spent a bench on a "young co-star" for their franchise player. It's basically always the wrong move. I believe they should get older, good players and continue to draft guys to replace them. Along the lines of what folks are talking about in this thread, there are older vets who'd be interested in playing on the Spurs. They don't all have the compulsion to seek a ring, nor are all of them willing to take min deals to be bit players on one few true contenders assuming those teams have spots for them at all. The Spurs should absolutely be aggressive in finding those players. They just need to stay away from all of the popular targets mentioned here.

We're just talking about realistic targets. It's hard to find players where all the variables allign.
Trade availability, contract situation, personality, basketball fit, age.
For example, I think Markkanen would be a perfect fit in every way possible...but Ainge is his GM and it's just not worth bothering. Won't even pick up the phone without a massive haul.

Eh, it really wouldn't. It depends on how the season goes. Most of us expect the team to compete for a playoff spot. But there are a lot of scenarios where it doesn't happen and it not be a bad thing. I don't think folks have to worry about attendance numbers for a long time given Victor's abilities.

I wrote about it in that other topic. Wemby wants to be on the GOAT trajectory. Another season of nothing wouldn't be a good look.
I'm not saying he'd become unhappy, I just think that Spurs have enough rescources to enable him, but it takes a competent front office.
And that's the biggest question mark. We can throw at the wall in here all we want, but we're just a bunch of randoms killing time on an irrelevant forum.
People working for competent front offices are way more knowledgeable than us and a lot of them would do wonders with the assets Spurs have. Is Brian Wright one of them? I'm honestly not sure.
That's what causes my insecurity, not the Leonard situation you mentioned earlier.

I hate that we are even discussing Harden being a Spur. He tops my list of Never-Spurs.

Imagine the glorious Clutchfans meltdown, would be worth it just because of that.

I do like the idea of Bridges, however, if we could find a way to get Bridges, Cam Johnson and Cam Thomas (Thomas I consider to be a prototypical third man).

The way is fairly straightforward. Would maybe need to find a third team with a legit player because Nets can't tank unless Rockets give them their picks back, but Spurs have enough picks to get those three and not deplete their stash too much.

[TD 21]

Why might I want to operate within the basis of reality when it comes to what PATFO wants in a thread about what I would want?

This is accepting the idea you keep pushing about the Spurs avoiding "hood culture" and the assumption that Portis is part of that culture.

Fine, then I want an MVP caliber player for a top 55 protected '30 2nd and matching salary ballast.

You're not honestly going to debate otherwise, are you? Whether Portis is or not, he projects himself as such and they'd almost certainly perceive him that way too.

So no. Being scarred about one player asking out in his seventh year and using that to worry about a rookie asking out is way different than looking at trends of teams overleveraging themselves trying to build and contender and seeing their star walk. As you were just high-fiving yourself about, the situations with Davis, Zion, Lebron, etc follow the league "reality", while the Kawhi situation is completely divorced from Wemby's situation in basically every way besides both players being on the Spurs.

Durant is now becoming more realistic, but the team would have to protect a fair bit of assets from the negotiation which might back it too hard to pull out. But if they could get Durant and draft a PG while holding onto Vassell and Sochan, it would be a no-brainer. Better than any of those other guys by a mile.

The point is, they're not doomed or screwed for the remainder of Wembanyama era if they make a significant trade that you don't approve of relatively soon, just because those other teams, with far less assets, were.

I don't think anyone rationale is worried about him asking out anytime (relatively) soon, we're concerned about having him for the long term and that means not continuing on the close minded path, at a snail's like pace, that we all know they'd prefer to operate on.

He'd have to be interested (no, he doesn't have a no trade clause, but when you're of his stature, it's how the league works), even in the highly unlikely event he were, he'd cost too much in assets relative to age. The Knicks are the obvious spot for him (I'd say Thunder, but too much baggage), but probably by the '25 off season.

[scott]

Re: Middleton - I've said this before in other threads, but I'm far less concerned about him opting-out in 2025-26, than him being completely broken and opting-in at $34MM. I definitely don't see his next deal starting at $34MM, honestly he may even end up being an MLE vet on his next deal if he doesn't flat out retire. He's on a clear decline, only averaging 15.1ppg while playing 88 games over the last two seasons.

I do think he'd be a nice mentor and vet on the team, but I don't want him eating up $34MM in cap space in Wemby Year 3 if it possibly hamstrings us from making other vital moves in that critical off-season. I'm more interested in the Terry mings-like vet (TC came to us at Age 28, coming off an All-Star appearance and All-NBA 3rd Team honors), and IMO Middleton is a little bit past that at this point in his career.

On the plus side, Middleton probably wouldn't cost much to acquire (or at least, he shouldn't). A lotto protected FRP is probably his max true value given his ability to stay healthy, performance in the last two years, and his contract. Bridges is probably a closer Terry mings-like acquisition, but will cost more.

I'm also with LeBowen. I think Lauri would be the ideal acquisition... but I don't want to even bother with Ainge.

[heyheymymy]

It's accurate and the entire story is kind of hillarious because it turned out to be a massive L for the Nets.
Before the season started, Memphis offered 4 FRPs for Bridges.
Still, it made sense since Memphis already has their core and those picks were supposed to be bad. I guess at least one was also lottery protected Wizards/Suns swap.

Anyhow, they didn't take the offer because they bought into the Bridges hype. He averaged 26ppg in 27 games after the trade last season.
He comes down to his actual level this season, his value tanks and Memphis pick will be top10 due to all the injuries they had.

Supposedly they asked for 3 FRP at the deadline and noone even tried to negotiate it.
They'll be lucky to get two average picks and a solid player this summer.
And it looks like Bridges is done with the Nets. He's about to turn 28, he's not good enough to be the first option and he wants to win.

If the cost is just something like I mentioned a few posts ago, then Spurs should go for it regardless of other roster developments.

Thanks for the info

If that's true lol

[buttsR4rebounding]

1. Trade Spurs 24 FRP + Keldon for DJM.
2. If the Tpups need to get under the 2nd apron trade the Toronto pick for Naz Reid.

DJM/Tre/Wesley
Vassell/Branham
Sochan/Champ/Cedi
Reid/Mamu
Wemby/Zollins/Barlow

1st team improves defense, rebounding and 3 point shooting. 2nd team still sucks on defense but should be able to score. Look to next year for draft help.

[Chinook]

Fine, then I want an MVP caliber player for a top 55 protected '30 2nd and matching salary ballast.

You're not honestly going to debate otherwise, are you? Whether Portis is or not, he projects himself as such and they'd almost certainly perceive him that way too.

I don't think you understood my point.

If you said that, I wouldn't care. That's what you want. Like so many other posts in this thread that post ideas that don't make sense to me, I'd just ignore it. As I mentioned, the boundaries for "realism" are at our convenience in this thread. If you want to limit your ideal off-season to the worldview you have where Portis is a "hood" player the Spurs would avoid due to their prejudice, that's fine. I personally, I don't buy into either of those premises, and I certainly don't think it makes sense to put them at the core of the assumptions I set out for these scenarios in the same way of trades being mathematically possible or lotto odds not being optimized are.

You do you, man. It's just weird to criticize people for saying they trust PATFO to pick the best guys and then to come back and criticize people for picking guys you don't think PATFO would pick. Are these folks sheep or pie-in-the-sky dreamers?

The point is, they're not doomed or screwed for the remainder of Wembanyama era if they make a significant trade that you don't approve of relatively soon, just because those other teams, with far less assets, were.

It's like how you can still run a marathon if you cut your foot off. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it doesn't hinder the process. The Spurs prioritizing gathering elite prospects when they are in a position to develop them isn't a period of time they can replicate. I've talked about a sustainable to way to grow talent, and trades like this eat into the seed corn of that talent for very little gain. There are Young-esque talents available for leverage trades every year. If they build organically for another season, there will be a trade like this available. The acceleration option never leaves the table. But once you light that burner, you can't stop it. If you aren't ready to move at that time, you're just burning fuel while sitting in idle.

I don't think anyone rationale is worried about him asking out anytime (relatively) soon, we're concerned about having him for the long term and that means not continuing on the close minded path, at a snail's like pace, that we all know they'd prefer to operate on.

There are a myriad of opinions on this that can't be summed up by either of us speaking for them. There are a hundred positions between "sell the farm" and "do nothing". We don't actually know where the Spurs are sitting on that line right now. Mark Stein and Brian Windhorst don't either. If you think you do, I can't stop you. But I'm also not going to take your interpretation as the basis for reality.

He'd have to be interested (no, he doesn't have a no trade clause, but when you're of his stature, it's how the league works), even in the highly unlikely event he were, he'd cost too much in assets relative to age. The Knicks are the obvious spot for him (I'd say Thunder, but too much baggage), but probably by the '25 off season.

We don't know what Phoenix wants for him. I'm not sure OKC or New York even want him after seeing his recent history. Both of those teams would make the move primarily to contend, and Durant hasn't instilled that much confidence there. The Spurs would be bringing him in as a super mentor for Wemby and Vassell with a chance at them being a dark horse if everything breaks right. With cap space, prospects and assets, the Spurs can be a lot more flexible with the packages they offer or multi-team scenarios they join than those other teams.

Like as a example of a proto-deal:

SAS: Durant
PHX: Murray
ATL: Vassell

Hawks trade Murray out for an actual shooting guard on a great long-term deal who is from the area
Suns shave a critical $20 Million off their salary and get a point-guard
Spurs get a legit co-star and mentor to Wemby and still have the ability to draft or sign a starting SG.

I'm assuming other assets would flow around there, as the Suns and Spurs especially would want to make moves to capitalize on their roster change. But neither New York or OKC can provide the Suns a lesser-star PG help stave on the effects of the second apron as easily. For a team as locked in as the Suns, value plays second fiddle to mechanics.

[CGD]

^ I’ve been following your Durant lark some. I’m warming to it, but I’d like to keep Dev. He’d be the perfect no. 3.

The hope is people get unhappy in PHX quick, and Durant starts to agitate. Build a draft day trade around 24FRP(s) + Keldon as the starting point for talks.

[vy65]

Re: Durant, I didn't realize that Beal (the obvious #3 and prime candidate to trade) has a no-trade clause. It's hard to envision a deal that PHX, its counter-party, and Beal all would agree to. Then, the question becomes what, if anything, does PHX do. If they stand pat, they likely remain a second apron team (https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryanto...h=58b9f1f5b01d). I don't see a world where they would entertain offers for Booker given his age and length of contract. Do they try to trade Nurkic? What would be the market for that - and - what moves involving him could they do that would be a needle-mover? Moving Nurkic would deplete already minimal depth at the 5. The same needle-moving comments could be made about a Grayson Allen deal too.

This could be wishcasting, but if I were PHX, I'd think long and hard about trying to sell a reset/mini-reset to Booker. He's 27. Adding a high draft pick this year, tanking the 24-25 season in the hopes of winning the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes, and re-orienting for 25-26 sounds a whole lot better than maintaining the status quo, with an aging KD, while being constrained from being able to do much, if anything, due to the second apron.

All of which is to say that PHX has to do something, but it seems like their best option is to do a KD deal for a handful of higher-end roleplayers and 24/25 draft capital.

[Chinook]

^ I’ve been following your Durant lark some. I’m warming to it, but I’d like to keep Dev. He’d be the perfect no. 3.

The hope is people get unhappy in PHX quick, and Durant starts to agitate. Build a draft day trade around 24FRP(s) + Keldon as the starting point for talks.

The idea in that case would be to draft someone like Dillingham to be the third option and bring in a defensive two-guard to balance the lineup. I wouldn't want to trade Vassell either, as he'd benefit from being KD's teammate. Just talking about the ways the Spurs can offer different type of packages than the teams already trying to contend can.