The Irregular Trebuchet of Stephon Castle

[Pauleta14]

I will be so depressed and disappointed next year if both Sochan and Vassell are starting next year. I mean wtf would we even be doing as a franchise if that’s the plan going forward. Sochan is a high energy bench player. He just can’t be used on our team as a starter if we want to win. Vassell is just a brick layer. There’s nothing else to his game.

If we don’t make a ing trade or swing for a big move this offseason then this team again won’t make the playoffs next year.

Objectively, the Spurs just standing pat and wasting the first 3 years of Wembys career is just stupid. Spurs fans like to about contracts of other star players, their age, their supposed fit, which player is overpaid and whatever other nonsense. So they’d rather just stand pat instead of taking a risk. But the time to up and go for it is when we have Wemby for 13 million a year. FFS he’s about to cost 50+ million a year going forward. If we pay a Jimmy Butler (not even saying I want him just using him as an example) 50 million this year and next year. We make the playoffs both years and get bounced in the second round both years or even just one year. Does that hurt us at all? What is the risk of even pulling the trigger for that trade?

If this was a bar, most of Spurstalk would be watching others take home girls while members like Splits would be saying nope elbow too pointy. And just go home alone with a nice bottle of lotion

[spurraider21]

Well, Castle not being able to play PG would complicate everything. You can't really pair Castle with a PG who can't shoot and, ideally, you don't want to pair him with a defensive liability. Finding that player will be damn difficult. Just by looking at current mock drafts, player like Fears, Traoré, Saraf, Philon and Fland aren't that great fit with Castle.

pending FA's who come to mind include

Fred Vanvleet (player option)
Lonzo Ball

[itzsoweezee]

Castle has a lot of promise, but he has no business starting. I’d be surprised if he’s a net positive player for the season. I don’t see the benefit of forcing the issue with him. Let him come off the bench and learn how to play before trying to make him a major part of the team. They’ve made this mistake over and over again over the last few years and seem to have learned nothing.

[Pauleta14]

Castle has a lot of promise, but he has no business starting. I’d be surprised if he’s a net positive player for the season. I don’t see the benefit of forcing the issue with him. Let him come off the bench and learn how to play before trying to make him a major part of the team. They’ve made this mistake over and over again over the last few years and seem to have learned nothing.

I agree ideally he shouldn't be starting, the same way Sochan shouldn't have from he get go but win his place or Tre last season etc

The pb is that choices are made by default with this ty roster, Castle is just less of a liability than the other choices

[CorrectCrusader]

Castle has a lot of promise, but he has no business starting. I’d be surprised if he’s a net positive player for the season. I don’t see the benefit of forcing the issue with him. Let him come off the bench and learn how to play before trying to make him a major part of the team. They’ve made this mistake over and over again over the last few years and seem to have learned nothing.

Castle is very much a plus player, even in the starting lineup.

[ambchang]

Castle is very much a plus player, even in the starting lineup.

Surprisingly he’s not.

https://www.basketball-reference.com.../2025/lineups/

He has the lowest ws/48, ows, Dws, bpm, obpm and VORP amongst all the regulars, second worst in dbpm. Worst in ortg, and middle of the pack in drtg.

Of all the regulars he’s k my better than Vassell and KJ in pt different as a two man rotation with wemby.

Honestly I’m shocked as well but castle isn’t doing as well we all think he is. Yes he’s 19, he’s a rookie learning the toughest job in the league but let’s not let the shiny new toy syndrome take over for now.

I’m still pretty confident he’s going to be a good if not great player one day but he’s not there yet.

[dn0774]

He doesn't deserve to start yet clearly, problem is he plays so much better when starting than off the bench so idk lol

[BatManu20]

If Mitch starts Sochan again when he returns, we riot.

[quentin_compson]

I mean, it's not really surprising that Castle is playing better as a starter than with the bench unit, is it? As a starter, he gets more minutes with Wemby and Chris Paul.

[DAF86]

I need to see any kind of improvement on that jumpshot, tbh.

[dn0774]

I need to see any kind of improvement on that jumpshot, tbh.

Historically speaking, shooting improvements tend to happen in the off season. Time to tinker during the season is at a minimum. Shot selection is something that can be worked on in season with film/coaching (we saw Wemby get better at that as last season went along) but I actually mostly like Castle's shot selection, their results are just all over the place. I've seen him knock down a couple shots in a row and look like he is in a groove and then he airballs the next couple middies lol. All over the place.

[scott]

If Mitch starts Sochan again when he returns, we riot.

Someone else pointed this out the other day, that there seems to be a contingent of fans that Castle should start because Castle plays better with the starters. Kind of silly logic, since the Spurs' goal isn't to simply maximize Castle's output. The best metrics to track are how the team does with Castle starting versus not starting.

Personally, I think still think it should be Castle and Champ starting with Devin and Sochan off the bench (and Devin should definitely be in the closing lineup, and Sochan situationally). The Castle/Champ SL (+13.2 NETRTG) is about on par with the Dev/Sochan SL (+15.5 NETRTG), but both are better than the Vassell/Castle SL (+7.9 NETRTG). However, Devin and Jeremy off the bench VASTLY improves our bench unit (and tbh, I think Devin's best role would be as a 6th man, the the point where I think he could grow into a legit perennial 6MOY contender).

[Kevin]

Took a gander at Castle's jump shooting numbers in comparison to past Spurs projects that had questionable jumper and the data is pretty bleak.

Rookie Jump Shot Shooting %

Castle: 29%
DJM: 35%
SlowMo: 27%
Derrick White: 43% (had to use second year data because of small sample size)

Rookie 3PT Shooing %

Castle: 26%
DJM: 34%
SlowMo:27%
Derrick White: 33% (had to use second year data because of small sample size)

None of these guys turned into legit second scoring options of championship caliber teams despite better shooting than Castle at roughly the same point in their career's. Castle's realistic scoring ceiling is probably a fourth option on a contender. People are allowed to hope and dream for whatever they want but the odds look really long that Castle will develop into a top three scoring option on a contender.

[LeBowen]

Took a gander at Castle's jump shooting numbers in comparison to past Spurs projects that had questionable jumper and the data is pretty bleak.

Rookie Jump Shot Shooting %

Castle: 29%
DJM: 35%
SlowMo: 27%
Derrick White: 43% (had to use second year data because of small sample size)

Rookie 3PT Shooing %

Castle: 26%
DJM: 34%
SlowMo:27%
Derrick White: 33% (had to use second year data because of small sample size)

None of these guys turned into legit second scoring options of championship caliber teams despite better shooting than Castle at roughly the same point in their career's. Castle's realistic scoring ceiling is probably a fourth option on a contender. People are allowed to hope and dream for whatever they want but the odds look really long that Castle will develop into a top three scoring option on a contender.

You say you used second year data for Derrick, but you were fine using data for DJ?
DJ had 0.6 and 0.4 3pta in his rookie and sophmore seasons. Tore his ACL in a pre-season game before his third season, reworked his shot during a year long break.
DJ was at 26% on 0.4 attempts in his sophmore season.

SlowMo's first season with more than 1 3pta was his second season with Memphis.
Data for players with such low volume is irrelevant.

Castle's 26% is awful, but he's at 3.8 attempts, which is solid volume.
He'll surely get it up to ~33% in a few years, the question is will he ever be able to go above 36%?

It's easier to develop a bad shooter (Castle) than a non-shooter (DJ).

[Kevin]

You say you used second year data for Derrick, but you were fine using data for DJ?
DJ had 0.6 and 0.4 3pta in his rookie and sophmore seasons. Tore his ACL in a pre-season game before his third season, reworked his shot during a year long break.
DJ was at 26% on 0.4 attempts in his sophmore season.

SlowMo's first season with more than 1 3pta was his second season with Memphis.
Data for players with such low volume is irrelevant.

Castle's 26% is awful, but he's at 3.8 attempts, which is solid volume.
He'll surely get it up to ~33% in a few years, the question is will he ever be able to go above 36%?

It's easier to develop a bad shooter (Castle) than a non-shooter (DJ).

Not sure I would classify Castle as a shooter even if he willing to let it fly. Dreadful data. Its more likely Castle end up closer to wing equivalent Sochan than Derrick White at this point.

[LeBowen]

Not sure I would classify Castle as a shooter even if he willing to let it fly. Dreadful data. Its more likely Castle end up closer to wing equivalent Sochan than Derrick White at this point.

We can guesstimate all we want, but the fact is that Castle is way ahead of rookie/sophmore DJ because DJ didn't even look at the basket from outside the paint.

While we're at Derrick, he was at 29% on 5 attempts in 21-22 season before he got traded.
It took him a long time to become a good shooter.

[dn0774]

You say you used second year data for Derrick, but you were fine using data for DJ?
DJ had 0.6 and 0.4 3pta in his rookie and sophmore seasons. Tore his ACL in a pre-season game before his third season, reworked his shot during a year long break.
DJ was at 26% on 0.4 attempts in his sophmore season.

SlowMo's first season with more than 1 3pta was his second season with Memphis.
Data for players with such low volume is irrelevant.

Castle's 26% is awful, but he's at 3.8 attempts, which is solid volume.
He'll surely get it up to ~33% in a few years, the question is will he ever be able to go above 36%?

It's easier to develop a bad shooter (Castle) than a non-shooter (DJ).

Not to mention that of those 3 (DJM, White, Slomo) only Dejounte was a 1 and done. , in Whites comparison season he was 24. Slomo is an interesting case, he has been all over the place with regards to 3 point shooting in his career. He shot 41% from 3 a couple seasons ago and followed it up with a 23% shooting season (admittedly lower volume) and this season is back up to 37%...

Obviously as Spurs fans we are going to take optimistic views of Castle's potential, but the shooting concerns are very real and the Spurs cant just count on time/reps to fix it. Hopefully Castle is willing to acknowledge the issue going into this summer after a season of data (he was in denial of the issue in training camp when asked about it by a reporter) and make adjustments. Steph being 20 and seemingly not requiring a complete tear down of his current shot bode somewhat well at least.

That being said, I also have very real doubts about our teams shot doctor(s?) because in a results driven league they aren't getting any.

[scott]

While I hope that Castle takes a Kawhi like developmental path, I'm not counting on it (and he's not started out on that path). However, I don't see anything to indicate he can't follow DJM's or Derrick's path. He's ahead of both starting out, but there is a long way to go.

Hopes are one thing, but we shouldn't be relying on Castle to save this roster from itself. Lots of upgrades still need to be made. Wemby is clearly untouchable, Castle is promising, Sochan right behind him, everyone else should be viewed as readily available.

[CGD]

Took a gander at Castle's jump shooting numbers in comparison to past Spurs projects that had questionable jumper and the data is pretty bleak.

Rookie Jump Shot Shooting %

Castle: 29%
DJM: 35%
SlowMo: 27%
Derrick White: 43% (had to use second year data because of small sample size)

Rookie 3PT Shooing %

Castle: 26%
DJM: 34%
SlowMo:27%
Derrick White: 33% (had to use second year data because of small sample size)

None of these guys turned into legit second scoring options of championship caliber teams despite better shooting than Castle at roughly the same point in their career's. Castle's realistic scoring ceiling is probably a fourth option on a contender. People are allowed to hope and dream for whatever they want but the odds look really long that Castle will develop into a top three scoring option on a contender.

In fairness Derrick was already a 4 year college player and SloMo I believe was a junior when drafted.

[cutewizard]

[Atl Spur]

Steph’s shooting/scoring will only get better. Overall, his game is nice but needs refinement ( to be expected from a rookie )!

[Raven]

another legitimately atrocious game from him, somebody needs to start explaining him he is supposed to be the next mike conley, not the next kirby bryant ffs

[scott]

another legitimately atrocious game from him, somebody needs to start explaining him he is supposed to be the next mike conley, not the next kirby bryant ffs

tell us more about how devin vassell is pretty darn good, consistently

[Raven]

tell us more about how devin vassell is pretty darn good, consistently

it is obvious, is it actually being discussed?

[TDMVPDPOY]

rather see castle chuck then wendy chucking the team out of momentum of the game....

he shouldnt be afraid to chuck under mitch, he wont get sub out with continuous poor decision making like if it was under popa