76ers: Wilt Chamberlain

[DAF86]

Is it safe to say that if he would have ended in the Celtics, instead of Russell, he would be the undisputed GOAT right now?

[adonis827]

what if... guess we would not know

[baseline bum]

Don't think he would have been nearly the fit Russell was and West + Baylor would have been able to take multiple les in the 60s. Russell was the whole reason those Celtics teams were devastating on the break. One of the best things about Wemby's defense is his shot blocks lead to changes in possession at a high rate since he is so early on a lot of his shotblocks that he can e them downward or tip them to teammates and Russell was even better at that (especially when he could block shots with his fingertips and tap it straight up so he could grab the rebound too). Russell also really knew where his teammates wanted the ball on the break, where they were effective attacking from, where they liked to finish, etc; kind of the same way Rodman was such a lunatic about knowing how different players would miss shots and what direction they were likely to bounce off the rim and all, like that. Now if Wilt ever played with a dominant PG like Kareem had in Oscar and Magic that would have really been something but I think those 1960s Celtics teams are significantly worse if you swap Russell out for Chamberlain. They'd win les but they wouldn't have won 11 of them.

[DAF86]

Don't think he would have been nearly the fit Russell was and West + Baylor would have been able to take multiple les in the 60s. Russell was the whole reason those Celtics teams were devastating on the break. One of the best things about Wemby's defense is his shot blocks lead to changes in possession at a high rate since he is so early on a lot of his shotblocks that he can e them downward or tip them to teammates and Russell was even better at that (especially when he could block shots with his fingertips and tap it straight up so he could grab the rebound too). Russell also really knew where his teammates wanted the ball on the break, where they were effective attacking from, where they liked to finish, etc; kind of the same way Rodman was such a lunatic about knowing how different players would miss shots and what direction they were likely to bounce off the rim and all, like that. Now if Wilt ever played with a dominant PG like Kareem had in Oscar and Magic that would have really been something but I think those 1960s Celtics teams are significantly worse if you swap Russell out for Chamberlain. They'd win les but they wouldn't have won 11 of them.

For the sake of argument, let's say they don't win 11, they win 8. Wilt would still be seen as the unquestioned GOAT. The most rings and dominated individually like no other player in history.

Just for the record, I don't buy for one second the Celtics would have won less, they were just that stacked.

[baseline bum]

For the sake of argument, let's say they don't win 11, they win 8. Wilt would still be seen as the unquestioned GOAT. The most rings and dominated individually like no other player in history.

Just for the record, I don't buy for one second the Celtics would have won less, they were just that stacked.

Lakers didn't win any with Wilt, West, and Baylor together. Sam Jones and John Havlicek were hardly the players West and Baylor were.

[Tyronn Lue]

No one from those days will ever be undisputed GOAT. The game doesn't translate well enough to today from a technical difficulty standpoint.

[TD 21]

^ That and bigs generally receive relatively little credit and respect because they're supposedly less "relatable" and marketable.

Media has brainwashed the masses/youth into thinking the league began with Bird, Johnson and Jordan, who then passed it to Bryant and him to James, Durant, Curry.

Chamberlain would probably be the consensus 3rd or 4th GOAT though, while Russell would probably fall out of the top 20 at least.

[DAF86]

Lakers didn't win any with Wilt, West, and Baylor together. Sam Jones and John Havlicek were hardly the players West and Baylor were.

In the 2014 finals, the Heat had, arguably, the 3 best players in the series, yet the Spurs easily dominated them. Sometimes a team is so deep, so well coached and work so well together, that individual talent doesn't matter. Those Celtics were clearly that kind of team.

[baseline bum]

In the 2014 finals, the Heat had, arguably, the 3 best players in the series, yet the Spurs easily dominated them. Sometimes a team is so deep, so well coached and work so well together, that individual talent doesn't matter. Those Celtics were clearly that kind of team.

Gotta disagree, Leonard was way better than Wade in that series and significantly better than Bosh too. Three best players in that Finals were (1) LeBron (2) Kawhi (3) Tim. I also don't really see the Celtics as having that monster of a supporting cast once Cousy retired in 63 (and then Heinsohn a couple years later). Don Nelson and KC Jones are HOFers for their coaching careers. Wilt was a monster when he was focused on the team like in 68 in Philly when his coach dared him to try to lead the league in assists. But Wilt chased stats a lot to the detriment of his team, especially with how he would just refuse to play defense once he got in foul trouble because he wanted to keep his record of never fouling out of a game intact. Lakers actually had a chance to get Wilt in the mid 60s but West and Baylor shot it down because they thought he was a statpadder and didn't come around to him joining until they had gotten their teeth kicked in by Boston a couple more times per Simmons' book.

[DAF86]

Gotta disagree, Leonard was way better than Wade in that series and significantly better than Bosh too. Three best players in that Finals were (1) LeBron (2) Kawhi (3) Tim. I also don't really see the Celtics as having that monster of a supporting cast once Cousy retired in 63 (and then Heinsohn a couple years later). Don Nelson and KC Jones are HOFers for their coaching careers. Wilt was a monster when he was focused on the team like in 68 in Philly when his coach dared him to try to lead the league in assists. But Wilt chased stats a lot to the detriment of his team, especially with how he would just refuse to play defense once he got in foul trouble because he wanted to keep his record of never fouling out of a game intact. Lakers actually had a chance to get Wilt in the mid 60s but West and Baylor shot it down because they thought he was a statpadder and didn't come around to him joining until they had gotten their teeth kicked in by Boston a couple more times per Simmons' book.

Simmons he's basically the Mr. Body of Celtics fans, disguised as a journalist. Of course he's gonna say anything to make Russell look better than Wilt.

I have no idea, because I have never seen Wilt nor Russell play live, I suspect you haven't either. But just by looking at stats and watching tape I think it's pretty safe to say Wilt was a better player than Russell, but Russell just got to play on the most stacked team of the era.

I don't care how much you stat pad, the fact that you say to yourself "this season I'm gonna average 50 ppg", "this season I'm gonna average 30 rpg", "now I'm gonna lead the league in assists", "now I'm gonna average a triple double" and you actually pull it off, it's remarkably to me. It speaks to the kind of individual dominance Wilt had over his peers. How many players in history you think could have pulled that off? How many other players you know of that treated the NBA as their own personal NBA2K "my career" game mode? The answer is "nobody else".

[baseline bum]

Simmons he's basically the Mr. Body of Celtics fans, disguised as a journalist. Of course he's gonna say anything to make Russell look better than Wilt.

I have no idea, because I have never seen Wilt nor Russell play live, I suspect you haven't either. But just by looking at stats and watching tape I think it's pretty safe to say Wilt was a better player than Russell, but Russell just got to play on the most stacked team of the era.

What, do you think he made the story up? And the stacked team argument probably died with Cousy's retirement and certainly did with Heinsohn's retirement.

[ambchang]

Wilt was a huge talent and a serious stat padder. He was Jordan before Jackson and hakeem before Rudy T. All time great who cares more about stats than winning. If wilt had a coach who held him accountable from the start of his career he’d be the goat.

[Raven]

of course it is

[DAF86]

What, do you think he made the story up? And the stacked team argument probably died with Cousy's retirement and certainly did with Heinsohn's retirement.

As if this would be the first time an ancient story gets made up or distorted . And even if it was true, it doesn't prove anything, since they still had to humble themselves and go get Wilt.

With a hand in your heart, just by looking at stats and analyzing them and their impact, do you really think it's likely that Russell was the better player?

[ambchang]

As if this would be the first time an ancient story gets made up or distorted . And even if it was true, it doesn't prove anything, since they still had to humble themselves and go get Wilt.

With a hand in your heart, just by looking at stats and analyzing them and their impact, do you really think it's likely that Russell was the better player?

Shaq have better stats than duncan. Was shaq better?

[DAF86]

Shaq have better stats than duncan. Was shaq better?

Actually, Shaq's prime is probably the most dominant I have ever experienced. I have no problem with folks ranking Shaq ahead of Duncan.

[FrostKing]

Wilt probably crumbles under the "racism" of Boston. Props to Bill. Hank Aaron of NBA.

[ambchang]

Actually, Shaq's prime is probably the most dominant I have ever experienced. I have no problem with folks ranking Shaq ahead of Duncan.

But why would anyone rank duncan over shaq. Shaq had better stats.

[DAF86]

But why would anyone rank duncan over shaq. Shaq had better stats.

The difference between Shaq and Tim's stats aren't as big as Wilt and Russell's.

[Arcadian]

^ That and bigs generally receive relatively little credit and respect because they're supposedly less "relatable" and marketable.

And yet basketball is a game dominated by big men. In any reasonable person's top 10, at least half of them are bigs.

I know you're just reporting what other people think, but I really hate when people make the "relatable" argument. What does that have anything to do with greatness?

[ambchang]

The difference between Shaq and Tim's stats aren't as big as Wilt and Russell's.

But better is better. It should be quite cut and dry if you go by stats alone. That’s your argument isn’t it?

[DAF86]

But better is better. It should be quite cut and dry if you go by stats alone. That’s your argument isn’t it?

Not at all. You can keep trying to be a smartass if you want, though.

[DAF86]

Also, which stats?

Shaq: 23.7 ppg - 10.9 rpg - 2.5 apg - 2.3 rpg - .208 WS/48 - 5.1 BPM

Duncan: 19 ppg - 10.8 rpg - 3 apg - 2.2 bpg - .209 WS/48 - 5.6 bpm

Shaq dominates (some) of the counting numbers but Duncan wins all the advanced metrics. Wilt dominates both over Russell:

Russell: 15.1 ppg - 22.5 rpg - 4.3 apg - .193 WS/48

Wilt: 30.1 ppg - 22.9 rpg - 4.4 apg - .248 WS/48

I think it's clear for anyone not trying to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, that there's a huge difference.

[baseline bum]

With a hand in your heart, just by looking at stats and analyzing them and their impact, do you really think it's likely that Russell was the better player?

You're making a different argument now. Your original argument was that Wilt would be considered the GOAT if he was drafted on the Celtics team that Russell was. I don't think he would because I don't think he would have won 7+ les beginning his career there, which is the minimum he'd need to eclipse the narrative of Jordan's six les in a tougher league. Saying he would have won 7 or 8 with Boston's supporting cast is kind of strange when Wilt didn't capture a le with ridiculous supporting casts in LA until his fourth year there.

[ambchang]

Not at all. You can keep trying to be a smartass if you want, though.

So what’s your argument that wilt is clearly better than Russell? I’m not following at all. And questioning you now is a smartaas? How?