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  1. #76
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Damn, Exxon's annual statement is a 20MB monster. At first glance it seems to have plenty of data on refining capacity and throughput.

    That should be enough to marry it to gasoline price data and run a regression analysis. Heh, it would do my statistics professor proud.

    I suppose it would also be a good idea to comb through a few other large oil companies financial reports and get a better handle on the data.

    I love this stuff.
    If you are looking to regress gasoline price to... well... anything, a company's financial statement probably isn't going to be any use to you. I'd recommend DOE stats, which are readily available and updated weekly.

  2. #77
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting bit:

    "by investing primarily in low-cost debottleneck steps, we have effectively added a new industry-average sized refinery to our portfolio every three years and an average conversion unit each year..."

    Wonder if they hired an economist to find the bottlenecks?
    Did I ever say that economists = bottleneck finders? Maybe the problem is that your definition of economics is skewed and you think that because accountants have to take economics classes in college that makes their respective skills to be interchangable?

    At my company, we hire chemical and mechanical engineers to understand and develop detailed work arounds for bottlenecks at a refinery. Most economics wouldn't know the first thing about debottlenecking a delayed coker or an akly unit. But anyone body in the right place at the right time can find the debottlenecks... I used to work with a guy who majored in Spanish in college who is aptly capable of doing so.

    What exactly is the point of your post?

  3. #78
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Here is a question for you to ponder...

    If global oil production ((link) and suppy (link) are at an all time high and both exceed global refining capacity (link) and historically high crude oil inventory levels (link)... why are crude prices at record levels?

    Here is a excerpt from the latest DOE release:

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp

    EIA’s analysis of current oil market conditions has led us to believe that there are three major factors that have caused the price of West Texas Intermediate to go from $20 to $30 per barrel in 2000-2002 to over $70 per barrel the last couple of weeks. In no particular order, they are: 1) strong global demand growth, especially in China and the United States, 2) limited surplus capacity, both upstream and downstream, and 3) major weather and geopolitical risks that have highlighted the need for more surplus capacity, both upstream and downstream. If EIA is correct in its analysis that these are the major factors driving oil prices right now, then it is logical to assume that oil prices will stay at high levels until current concerns are eased in one or more of these areas. To see if any of these factors are likely to fade away soon, let’s analyze each one a little more closely.
    Along with that, I'll ask...

    1) In regards to strong global demand growth... what is it exactly that China and the United States demand? Do they demand crude oil or do they demand finished product?
    2) What is the next limiting factor on the ability to meet the demands in (1)?

  4. #79
    Garnett > Duncan sickdsm's Avatar
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    Biofuels will not be able to replace oil in the US. Brazil, yes. Mostly because they don't drive anywhere near the mileage that the US does. Biofuels based on sugar cane could replace some of our energy needs, but corn-based ethanol takes more energy to produce than can be extracted from it. I doubt we have the water resources to come anywhere even near the requirements to replace more than a fraction of our gasoline usage.

    I am really against biodiesel as a total replacement for gasoline, because even this cleaner form of diesel is still 70 times more polluting in terms of particulate soot than gasoline. Biodeisel could/should replace diesel as it burns a lot cleaner than oil-based diesel does.

    As for the persoan insults:
    Knock yourself out. Your stereotypes/prejudices don't concern me. Stick to the topic at hand, and I will give you reasoned arguments supporte by data.


    Prove it. I asked you for production data before and you shimmyed like Antoine Walker's photoshop of him leading the orchestra. You responed with bull of the us can't produce enough corn, even though you ignore that feed demands for livestock would drastically be reducuced bc a higher value, cheaper food source would be available. Seriously, why is it a yes/no question for you? No one source of energy is EVER going to completely replace another in one generation. There's still people using animal power to farm, also steam. Get my point?

    Corn has improved its yeilds 80 percent in 25 years, mainly from technology. You are no different than naysayers of any other major advancement, whether it be electricty, combustable engine or gunpowder. You also are only looking at the US, let me reitterate this to you AGAIN, Brazil has not yet "discovered" corn. They are a soybean only mentailty. When they get their infrastructure in place, they WILL produce 300 bu corn and more than enough beans. We are no where near even using the potential of the worlds ag land. I guarandamntee you that if American's farmed all the worlds' land they would use corn for roads and soybeans for baseballls. I will produce 300 bu corn in my lifetime and be dissapointed at the yield. Geuss what though? 200 bushel corn is common around here with NO irrigation. In other words, you want to be greedy and take the north central's supply of water for your area (southwest) that when you take a good look at it, should not even be inhabited. Monsanto has been working on there drought tolerant corn variety that a few years ago produced 80 bushel corn in the badlands of South Dakota, this is a variety aimed at africa. Severe droughts in the corn belt this year led to a surprising 120 bu average in those areas hit in indiana. Years ago that would have been a total loss as it wouldn't have fully matured.

    Canola is another crop that shows big promise in the US as a biodiesel, i believe that's what Canada uses.


    The negative energy theory may have been true years ago but not now. Believe me, there's a million things that aren't being factored in in just the production stage. Ethanol and Biodiesel are tied together tightly in the production area.

    They can make gas out of turkey and have been able to do that for years now but its not feasible enough to do widespread. Geuss what? there's still improving it! Should they stop bc its not penciling out?

  5. #80
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Did I ever say that economists = bottleneck finders? Maybe the problem is that your definition of economics is skewed and you think that because accountants have to take economics classes in college that makes their respective skills to be interchangable?

    At my company, we hire chemical and mechanical engineers to understand and develop detailed work arounds for bottlenecks at a refinery. Most economics wouldn't know the first thing about debottlenecking a delayed coker or an akly unit. But anyone body in the right place at the right time can find the debottlenecks... I used to work with a guy who majored in Spanish in college who is aptly capable of doing so.

    What exactly is the point of your post?
    It was close to my bedtime and I was being cranky. Please forgive my snarkiness there.

  6. #81
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The negative energy theory may have been true years ago but not now. Believe me, there's a million things that aren't being factored in in just the production stage. Ethanol and Biodiesel are tied together tightly in the production area.

    They can make gas out of turkey and have been able to do that for years now but its not feasible enough to do widespread. Geuss what? there's still improving it! Should they stop bc its not penciling out?
    Ok let's do some math.

    Let's assume:
    1. Corn is as efficient as sugar cane in producing ethanol. The reading that I have done is that it is still much less productive at converting mass into fuel, but let's roll with this for simplicity's sake.

    2. Ethanol has as much energy in it per volume as gasoline. I seem to remember it is a bit less, but again, simplicity.

    From the wikipedia article on ethanol in brazil, we can pull out the following information:

    Amount of sugar crop acreage allocated to Ethanol in 2003-2004:
    8789 square miles.
    45,000 km2, of which half is used for ethanol, and converted into square miles)

    This square area produces:
    88 Million barrels of ethanol per year
    (cubic meters converted to liters at 1000 liters per cubic meter, converted to gallons at .256 liters per gallon, converted to barrels at 42 gallons per barrel of petroleum)

    Directly converting this to gasoline would yield 88 million barrels of gasoline per year using our simplified assumptions.

    The US uses 3,321,500,000 barrels of gasoline per year per ( http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/ep/ep_frame.html )

    3.3Bn divided by 88M= 37.75 (the number of times larger that US gasoline consumption is than Brazil's consumption)

    37.75 times 8789 square miles is 331,521 square miles.

    Assume we can find 50% of that figure in unused crop land, that leaves us with 160,500 square miles of NEW crop land that would be need to completely replace gasoline with ethanol at current usage rates.

    Factor in the fact that Ethanol has less energy per unit of mass, and that square mileage will go up. Subs ute a less efficient crop of corn, and that square mileage will go up.

    According to the CIA factbook the united states has only 87,000 square miles of irrigated land now.
    Where would we get the water to irrigate the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF SQUARE MILES of crop land that fully replacing gasoline with ethanol will take, ASSUMING we can find the arable land?

    Saying "let's just replace our gasoline powered cars with ethanol" doesn't make it viable as a realistic solution.

    Rolling forward a bit:

    Yes, we will have to start driving less and buying more efficient vehicles. This will reduce the square mileage needed.

    Our population is also growing, as is the economy. This will increase demand for fuel. This will offset gains from efficiency somewhat, if not a lot.

    Yes, agricultural production will become more efficient, again reducing the square mileage issue. But not by enough of a conceivable factor to replace gasoline as it stands.

    Biodiesel will face the same problems of water and arable land. Keep in mind that the figure given was just for gasoline, and not for diesel. Replacing oil-diesel with biodeisel will require a similar ramp up in devoted area to crops.

    One good factor that the wikipedia article pointed out is that a good chunk of the waste mass from producing ethanol can be used to produce electricity beyond what the refining process uses.

    I am not saying that ethanol is stupid.
    Ethanol is certainly part of what I consider part of an energy solution that takes a longer term view. I am all for ramping up usage of this renewable source of energy.

    I simply wanted to point out the scale of the problem we are trying to address.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 05-10-2006 at 02:32 PM.

  7. #82
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Here is a question for you to ponder...

    If global oil production ((link) and suppy (link) are at an all time high and both exceed global refining capacity (link) and historically high crude oil inventory levels (link)... why are crude prices at record levels?

    Here is a excerpt from the latest DOE release:

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp

    Along with that, I'll ask...

    1) In regards to strong global demand growth... what is it exactly that China and the United States demand? Do they demand crude oil or do they demand finished product?
    2) What is the next limiting factor on the ability to meet the demands in (1)?
    1) Both crude and refined.
    I actually pointed out that global refining capacity is expanding, both by making current refineries more productive (see the exxon annual report) and by countries like Saudi Arabia and others buliding new ones.
    2) Refining capacity is potentially unlimited over the long term. Crude oil production is not.

    Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other on some basic level here?

  8. #83
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Here is a question for you to ponder...

    If global oil production ((link) and suppy (link) are at an all time high and both exceed global refining capacity (link) and historically high crude oil inventory levels (link)... why are crude prices at record levels?

    Here is a excerpt from the latest DOE release:

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp



    Along with that, I'll ask...

    1) In regards to strong global demand growth... what is it exactly that China and the United States demand? Do they demand crude oil or do they demand finished product?
    2) What is the next limiting factor on the ability to meet the demands in (1)?
    Ok, I took a look at your links. (all figures in millions of barrels per day) Using 2004 as a basis and the higher of the two given production/supply figures of 82.995 versus refining capacity of 82.26, leaving a disparity of .735
    .735 as a percentage of refining capacity is .89%

    If refinery capacity is the true driver in the cost of gasoline, should a shortfall of .89% capacity cause gas prices to rise 30%+?
    This speaks only to the price of gasoline, not to oil itself.

    If the supply is constant or slightly increasing, and the price point is increasing it stands to reason that the demand curve is rising faster than the supply curve, all things held equal.

    While I will readily acknowledge that a bottleneck anywhere in the system, such as refining capacity, will cause the supply curve to move downwards, your own figures would seem to point out that refinery capacity doesn't seem to be as much of a driver as the fact that demand is outpacing overall supply.

    Given that I think that global supply of oil is at, near or recently passed its ultimate peak, I would say that building new refineries is a fool's errand, as efficiency gains can be had out of existing refineries, and oil production will be dropping off eliminating any refining bottleneck.

  9. #84
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    1) Both crude and refined.
    Here is where I have a fundemental disagreement. The demand for oil is not exogenous of the demand for refined products. If we could make gasoline (or other oil products) out of iPods and iPods were always cheaper than oil, there would be no oil demand.

    Put another way, I don't think it is accurate to say that "Intel iPod processor demand is X units per year" - people don't demand Intel iPod processors (don't know if Intel makes them... just throwing out examples)... they demand iPods.

    Let's say that Intel is the only maker of iPod processors and they have unlimited production capacity. Let's assume Apple can make 1 million iPods a year, but they have demand for 3 million and prices are allowed to float in order to allocate the scarce resource (iPods). Let's say the iPod price rises to $1,000. Previously when iPods were only $299, Intel was only charging $100 for their processor (which we will assume is the only cost that goes into making an iPod). Apple's profit margin, but their own inability to produce more iPods, has risen then from $200 per unit to $900 per unit.

    Intel has pricing power, and they are going to sit around and let Apple make monster profits - they are going to jack up the price of their processors. Let's say that they put them at $800, and Apple still makes $200 per iPod. In this case, it wasn't the processors driving up the iPod cost, it was the lack of iPod production capacity and the inherent pricing power of the monopoly supplier that drove up the cost of Intel processors.

    That is an extremely simplified version of what is going on with refining.

    I actually pointed out that global refining capacity is expanding, both by making current refineries more productive (see the exxon annual report) and by countries like Saudi Arabia and others buliding new ones.
    2) Refining capacity is potentially unlimited over the long term. Crude oil production is not.
    These are generally true statements - but I'm not debating what may be the driver of oil and petroleum product prices 5 to 10 years from now - but what is driving them today.

  10. #85
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Ok, I took a look at your links. (all figures in millions of barrels per day) Using 2004 as a basis and the higher of the two given production/supply figures of 82.995 versus refining capacity of 82.26, leaving a disparity of .735
    .735 as a percentage of refining capacity is .89%

    If refinery capacity is the true driver in the cost of gasoline, should a shortfall of .89% capacity cause gas prices to rise 30%+?
    This speaks only to the price of gasoline, not to oil itself.
    The price elasticity of demand for gasoline has proven to be very inelastic - so maybe a small shortfall of capacity could result in a 150% rise in gasoline price. From a statistical perspective I can't tell you, because I haven't run the numbers. But fundementally and logically, it is not too far fetched. Demand for gasoline continues to grow despite record high prices, and we went from a situation 5 years ago when we were long refining capacity to a situation where we are now short.

    Another thing to consider is that it is not just refining capacity (the number of barrels of crude oil that can be processed into product) but refining capability (the ability to process certain qualities of crude into product that meets tightening specifications). The capabilities part of the equation is BIG. The price of oil you see quoted is for West Texas Intermediate, a light sweet (low sulfur) grade of crude. This is easier to refine and easier to make low-sulfur spec product with. While the price of this grade has skyrocketed, the discount of a heavy-sour barrel of crude oil has widened tremendously. This is an indication to the impact that refining capabilities are having on prices for finished product.

    If the supply is constant or slightly increasing, and the price point is increasing it stands to reason that the demand curve is rising faster than the supply curve, all things held equal.
    Demand is rising faster than supply, exactly correct. But again, what do YOU, the consumer... demand? It isn't raw crude oil.

    While I will readily acknowledge that a bottleneck anywhere in the system, such as refining capacity, will cause the supply curve to move downwards, your own figures would seem to point out that refinery capacity doesn't seem to be as much of a driver as the fact that demand is outpacing overall supply.
    I strongly disagree with your interpretation of my numbers.

    Given that I think that global supply of oil is at, near or recently passed its ultimate peak, I would say that building new refineries is a fool's errand, as efficiency gains can be had out of existing refineries, and oil production will be dropping off eliminating any refining bottleneck.
    Peak oil is a topic for another discussion - but I will say that spare capacity exists today and at $70 oil a lot of projects are coming online. There is a peak to oil production, but I don't think we are at that peak (physically capable peak, not a price driven peak). Either way, we won't know until we are passed it.

  11. #86
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I would take a wild guess that you work for Valero...

    Thanks for the analysis. I would defer to you in terms of economics and oil, over my more limited knowledge of the market.

    You seem to have access to better data than I do, you could run the numbers and let me know. This is something that interests me a lot. I prefer to take positions based on understanding and data.

  12. #87
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Ok, I took a look at your links. (all figures in millions of barrels per day) Using 2004 as a basis and the higher of the two given production/supply figures of 82.995 versus refining capacity of 82.26, leaving a disparity of .735
    .735 as a percentage of refining capacity is .89%

    If refinery capacity is the true driver in the cost of gasoline, should a shortfall of .89% capacity cause gas prices to rise 30%+?
    This speaks only to the price of gasoline, not to oil itself.
    One more thing... even at the peak of production margins, refineries don't run at 100% of capacity - it is not sustainable over periods of time due to maintence needs (both scheduled and unscheduled) and the physical strain placed on the assets. "Refining capacity" is officially measured by the capacity of the crude unit though, and different refinery configurations lead to some "skewing" of official data. You can have refineries that have over or undersized crude units. Gasoline production per barrel of crude comsumption varies WIDELY from refinery to refinery (for a number of reasons).

    I bring this up because if you take a historically high refinery utilization number like 95%, the gap between crude production and refinery capacity is more evident. Again, my explaination for prices applies only to the current situation.

  13. #88
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Some folks, it appears, is not really happy with Gore and his "junk science". Seems
    he has erred somewhat according to the real experts.

    Guest Column
    Scientists respond to Gore's warnings of climate catastrophe
    "The Inconvenient Truth" is indeed inconvenient to alarmists
    By Tom Harris
    Monday, June 12, 2006

    "Scientists have an independent obligation to respect and present the truth as they see it," Al Gore sensibly asserts in his film "An Inconvenient Truth", showing at berland 4 Cinemas in Toronto since Jun 2. With that outlook in mind, what do world climate experts actually think about the science of his movie?

    Professor Bob Carter of the Marine Geophysical Laboratory at James Cook University, in Australia gives what, for many Canadians, is a surprising assessment: "Gore's cir stantial arguments are so weak that they are pathetic. It is simply incredible that they, and his film, are commanding public attention."

    But surely Carter is merely part of what most people regard as a tiny cadre of "climate change skeptics" who disagree with the "vast majority of scientists" Gore cites?

    No; Carter is one of hundreds of highly qualified non-governmental, non-industry, non-lobby group climate experts who contest the hypothesis that human emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) are causing significant global climate change. "Climate experts" is the operative term here. Why? Because what Gore's "majority of scientists" think is immaterial when only a very small fraction of them actually work in the climate field.

    Even among that fraction, many focus their studies on the impacts of climate change; biologists, for example, who study everything from insects to polar bears to poison ivy. "While many are highly skilled researchers, they generally do not have special knowledge about the causes of global climate change," explains former University of Winnipeg climatology professor Dr. Tim Ball. "They usually can tell us only about the effects of changes in the local environment where they conduct their studies."

    This is highly valuable knowledge, but doesn't make them climate change cause experts, only climate impact experts.

    So we have a smaller fraction.

    But it becomes smaller still. Among experts who actually examine the causes of change on a global scale, many concentrate their research on designing and enhancing computer models of hypothetical futures. "These models have been consistently wrong in all their scenarios," asserts Ball. "Since modelers concede computer outputs are not "predictions" but are in fact merely scenarios, they are negligent in letting policy-makers and the public think they are actually making forecasts."

    We should listen most to scientists who use real data to try to understand what nature is actually telling us about the causes and extent of global climate change. In this relatively small community, there is no consensus, despite what Gore and others would suggest.

    Here is a small sample of the side of the debate we almost never hear:

    Appearing before the Commons Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development last year, Carleton University paleoclimatologist Professor Tim Patterson testified, "There is no meaningful correlation between CO2 levels and Earth's temperature over this [geologic] time frame. In fact, when CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now, about 450 million years ago, the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years." Patterson asked the committee, "On the basis of this evidence, how could anyone still believe that the recent relatively small increase in CO2 levels would be the major cause of the past century's modest warming?"

    Patterson concluded his testimony by explaining what his research and "hundreds of other studies" reveal: on all time scales, there is very good correlation between Earth's temperature and natural celestial phenomena such changes in the brightness of the Sun.

    Dr. Boris Winterhalter, former marine researcher at the Geological Survey of Finland and professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki, takes apart Gore's dramatic display of Antarctic glaciers collapsing into the sea. "The breaking glacier wall is a normally occurring phenomenon which is due to the normal advance of a glacier," says Winterhalter. "In Antarctica the temperature is low enough to prohibit melting of the ice front, so if the ice is grounded, it has to break off in beautiful ice cascades. If the water is deep enough icebergs will form."

    Dr. Wibjörn Karlén, emeritus professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden, admits, "Some small areas in the Antarctic Peninsula have broken up recently, just like it has done back in time. The temperature in this part of Antarctica has increased recently, probably because of a small change in the position of the low pressure systems."

    But Karlén clarifies that the 'mass balance' of Antarctica is positive - more snow is ac ulating than melting off. As a result, Ball explains, there is an increase in the 'calving' of icebergs as the ice dome of Antarctica is growing and flowing to the oceans. When Greenland and Antarctica are assessed together, "their mass balance is considered to possibly increase the sea level by 0.03 mm/year - not much of an effect," Karlén concludes.

    The Antarctica has survived warm and cold events over millions of years. A meltdown is simply not a realistic scenario in the foreseeable future.

    Gore tells us in the film, "Starting in 1970, there was a precipitous drop-off in the amount and extent and thickness of the Arctic ice cap." This is misleading, according to Ball: "The survey that Gore cites was a single transect across one part of the Arctic basin in the month of October during the 1960s when we were in the middle of the cooling period. The 1990 runs were done in the warmer month of September, using a wholly different technology."

    Karlén explains that a paper published in 2003 by University of Alaska professor Igor Polyakov shows that, the region of the Arctic where rising temperature is supposedly endangering polar bears showed fluctuations since 1940 but no overall temperature rise. "For several published records it is a decrease for the last 50 years," says Karlén

    Dr. Morgan, former advisor to the World Meteorological Organization and climatology researcher at University of Exeter, U.K. gives the details, "There has been some decrease in ice thickness in the Canadian Arctic over the past 30 years but no melt down. The Canadian Ice Service records show that from 1971-1981 there was average, to above average, ice thickness. From 1981-1982 there was a sharp decrease of 15% but there was a quick recovery to average, to slightly above average, values from 1983-1995. A sharp drop of 30% occurred again 1996-1998 and since then there has been a steady increase to reach near normal conditions since 2001."

    Concerning Gore's beliefs about worldwide warming, Morgan points out that, in addition to the cooling in the NW Atlantic, massive areas of cooling are found in the North and South Pacific Ocean; the whole of the Amazon Valley; the north coast of South America and the Caribbean; the eastern Mediterranean, Black Sea, Caucasus and Red Sea; New Zealand and even the Ganges Valley in India. Morgan explains, "Had the IPCC used the standard parameter for climate change (the 30 year average) and used an equal area projection, instead of the Mercator (which doubled the area of warming in Alaska, Siberia and the Antarctic Ocean) warming and cooling would have been almost in balance."

    Gore's point that 200 cities and towns in the American West set all time high temperature records is also misleading according to Dr. Roy Spencer, Principal Research Scientist at The University of Alabama in Huntsville. "It is not unusual for some locations, out of the thousands of cities and towns in the U.S., to set all-time records," he says. "The actual data shows that overall, recent temperatures in the U.S. were not unusual."

    Carter does not pull his punches about Gore's activism, "The man is an embarrassment to US science and its many fine prac ioners, a lot of whom know (but feel unable to state publicly) that his propaganda crusade is mostly based on junk science."

    In April sixty of the world's leading experts in the field asked Prime Minister Harper to order a thorough public review of the science of climate change, something that has never happened in Canada. Considering what's at stake - either the end of civilization, if you believe Gore, or a waste of billions of dollars, if you believe his opponents - it seems like a reasonable request.

    Tom Harris is mechanical engineer and Ottawa Director of High Park Group, a public affairs and public policy company. He can be reached at [email protected]




    This page printed from: http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/harris061206.htm

  14. #89
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    Thank you for your explanations. In europe, this stuff is common cause, but it's nice to read here.

  15. #90
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    In fact, when CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now, about 450 million years ago, the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years." Patterson asked the committee, "On the basis of this evidence, how could anyone still believe that the recent relatively small increase in CO2 levels would be the major cause of the past century's modest warming?

    This is a common misconception put out by industry sponsored eco-shills. As you can see by this graph from Wikipedia's global warming page, before the industrial revolution CO2 levels remained consistant for almost a thousand years. Median temperatures rose and fell slightly, probably attesting to the effects of solar radiation on the planet due to active and inactive sun cycles and Milankovitch cycles. However, the long-term peaks in the earth temperature always coorelated with increased CO2 activity. High CO2 levels used to be naturally due to increased volcanic activity, but there aren't too many active volcanos in the world today.

  16. #91
    Hey Bruce... Lebron is the Rock Sec24Row7's Avatar
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    yeah... that graph is 400,000 years when earth is 4.6 BILLION years old.

    So basically you are saying that something that is a 1/11500 sample of earths history holds true for everthing. I challenge you to find anything that you can look at 1/11500th of and get a decent picture of how it works.

    He refered to a time in the Ordovician... 450 million years ago that had more CO2 in the atmosphere than we have now and was a ton colder.

    Nice try dip .

  17. #92
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    that graph is 400,000 years when earth is 4.6 BILLION years old.
    I covered naturally occuring increasing CO2 levels, but I guess that went over your head like 90% of my posts.

  18. #93
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    I covered naturally occuring increasing CO2 levels, but I guess that went over your head like 90% of my posts.
    OMG! How are we still freakin' breathing!?!?!?!?

  19. #94
    Hey Bruce... Lebron is the Rock Sec24Row7's Avatar
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    I covered naturally occuring increasing CO2 levels, but I guess that went over your head like 90% of my posts.

    You know what dan? You arent even worth responding to anymore. Why don't you go find Zarqawi since he is still alive and go plot our destruction with environmentally friendly weapons of mass destruction.

  20. #95
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    You know what dan? You arent even worth responding to anymore. Why don't you go find Zarqawi since he is still alive and go plot our destruction with environmentally friendly weapons of mass destruction.
    That's right, when personal attacks fail - quit.

    Show me the evidence.

  21. #96
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    That's right, when personal attacks fail - quit.

    Show me the evidence.
    Did you read my post? The people who really deal with weather say your
    bunch are "experts" alright, just not about weather. But as you say,
    truth normally passes right over your little tinfoil hat. Like, hey, you
    reading, there is no melting of the ice caps. Like the man says:
    ""The breaking glacier wall is a normally occurring phenomenon which is due to the normal advance of a glacier," says Winterhalter. "In Antarctica the temperature is low enough to prohibit melting of the ice front, so if the ice is grounded, it has to break off in beautiful ice cascades. If the water is deep enough icebergs will form."

    and

    "Gore tells us in the film, "Starting in 1970, there was a precipitous drop-off in the amount and extent and thickness of the Arctic ice cap." This is misleading, according to Ball: "The survey that Gore cites was a single transect across one part of the Arctic basin in the month of October during the 1960s when we were in the middle of the cooling period. The 1990 runs were done in the warmer month of September, using a wholly different technology."

    Now go back to your room and I will bring you some more tinfoil. That's
    a nice boy.

  22. #97
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The Pacific is getting warmer and more acidic, while the amount of oxygen and the building blocks for coral and some kinds of plankton are decreasing, according to initial results from scientists with National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory, the University of Washington and elsewhere.

    "There are big changes," said Christopher Sabine, chief scientist for one leg of the research trip, which ultimately traveled from Antarctica to Alaska.

    Many of the most interesting results are tied to the ocean becoming increasingly acidic because of its absorption of carbon dioxide.
    GRANTED:

    Humans are responsible for the massive e in atmospheric CO2.

    Humans=more CO2
    More CO2=more acid rain,
    more acid rain=more acidic oceans,
    more acidic oceans=die off of micro-organisms
    die off of micro-organisms=collapse of aquatic food chain
    Therefore
    Humans=collapse of the aquatic food chain

    None of the poo-pooing of global warming that conservatives have been doing in this thread has changed the above.

  23. #98
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    In case you start wanting to claim that the billions of tons of CO2 that we have released in since the start of the industrial revolution don't really mean much, the only other driver in atmospheric CO2 is volcanic activity.

    If you look at a graph of CO2 levels based on millions of years of data, you can see that the current e (30%+ in 200 years) is faster than any other trend in that period of time.

    Meaning that either
    1) the Earth has had an uptick in volcanic activity on a massive scale that has not been seen in millions of years and this activity has happened in the last 200 years without us noticing it,
    or
    2) humans really did cause the e in global CO2.

    The problem is not with the scale of the change in CO2 levels, which is in line with historic variances, but with the PACE of those changes.

    This is one that will drive the creationists nuts, so hold on ta yer hats.

    The pace of the change in CO2 levels is so fast that organisms can't adapt fast enough.

    If god really did plunk everything down "as is" 10,000 years ago and no evolution happens, the organisms that were created for lower acid levels in the oceans will all die off and "piff" goes the food chain.

  24. #99
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    yeah... that graph is 400,000 years when earth is 4.6 BILLION years old.

    So basically you are saying that something that is a 1/11500 sample of earths history holds true for everthing. I challenge you to find anything that you can look at 1/11500th of and get a decent picture of how it works.

    He refered to a time in the Ordovician... 450 million years ago that had more CO2 in the atmosphere than we have now and was a ton colder.

    Nice try dip .
    If you want to get technical the levels of CO2 were so high because the earth was so cold.

    If you are that much smarter than I am, feel free to explain why that is so.

  25. #100
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Hey RG, did you read my post #75 in the following link.

    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...9&page=3&pp=26

    How will you address this problem? Hmmmmmmm. Or will you just ignore it and
    tell us what terrible people we are?

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