Small Ball Cost This Team

[strangeweather]

Let me rephrase this for you. We had the same seven footer starting that 'could play' last time we won a le (Nazr) as we did at the end of this season. Which is it? You say we lost the last two where our starting center sucked, but won the last two where he was decent. Well, Nazr won it last year (which is clearly one of the last two we won), but you're trying to say he sucked this year.

Clearly, you're a ing idiot.

Yes, I am indeed trying to say Nazr sucked this year. He regressed significantly, his defense wasn't as good, and he made many more crucial, gutwrenching mistakes.

Why exactly does that make me "a ing idiot"?

[strangeweather]

Duncan could have done what he did with Amare last year - let the guy get 40, stay out of his way and don't foul when he's in the lane, and the Spurs win the series going away.

After all, anyone who has seen them knows that Amare and Dirk have pretty much the same game.

You remember that series right? The one where we played Nazr and Tim vs. small ball and won going away? Evidently you didn't even watch that one.

The one where we "beat them in *6 games*"?

[EVAY]

Pop went with Small ball cause in the 2nd game he got torched like a Roman candle in a hot ashes.......

Trust me, he saw the film and realized pretty quickly that Nazr, Duncan, nor Rasho could handle Dirk or Howard on the defensive end. The thing that he didn't count on in the end was that none of his guys could handle Dirk on the defensive end.

You have to realize what Dallas was doing in game 2 to see what Pop had to do. Dallas primarily runs 2 plays for most of the game, the high pick, or a Dirk Iso at the top of the key. That's all they pretty much run I'd say %80 of the time. Pop knew that's what they were going to do by game 2, but the way they ran with Harris vs Griffin wasn't stoppable with Rasho in the game. Dirk would pick for Terry or Harris Nazr switched, now you have Parker on Dirk and Bowen on Terry or Harris doesn't sound bad yet does it. Now in the switch the guard has time to get in the key just slightly sucking in the Defense and now Terry or Harris can go to the wing to Howard or Stackhouse who is either gaurded by Nazr, Duncan, or Rasho, but if for some reason that mismatch isn't available he just dumps it back to Dirk and Dirk drains the jumper from the top of the key or if the Spurs bring a double he kicks to a guard who is being guarded now by a big. That guard can now shoot over the big or drive to the hole now guarded by a bunch of guards....

Pop had no choice really, Dirk is the ultimate defensive killer, he's simply like no other player to ever play the game. He's an above average shooting guard that happens to be 7' tall and can rebound as well as just about anyone in the league. Dirk's offensive skill set is so amazing but dare I say even if he were 6'5" he'd still be a starting guard in the NBA.

BTW, the Mavs never really played "small ball", our lineup primarily was 2 7 footers, 2 guards, and a lengthy small forward.

This is actually quite true, and one of the reasons I never understood Pop's lineup. It was not that the mavs played four smalls with Dirk, they played 3 smalls and a "center-type" (Dampier or Diop). So the Mavs defense could do what the spurs used to be able to do, i.e. send shooters down the baseline to get their shot blocked. We have played that style of defense since the David Robinson era, and now in this series the Spurs had no one block the shots once the guys got to the rim.


This, to me, was the real crux of the matchup problem with the mavs. We played the same excellent defense on the perimeter that we always have, but we could never get stops at the rim. Most of this I attribute to Horry not wanting to play the assignment he was given, and to Avery sending their guards toward Duncan, who kept getting fouls on the quicker guys...so Duncan couldn't stop them...Horry couldn't or wouldn't, and so it looked like they were terrific on offense because we couldn't stop them. I don't think that's the problem of the players....that's the problem of the coaching staff.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

After all, anyone who has seen them knows that Amare and Dirk have pretty much the same game.

The point was that you let Dirk get his and worry about the rest of the Mavs, much like we let Amare get his last year and shut down the other Suns.

I'm sorry this is so hard for you. Dirk averaged 30 a game, but set up his teammates due to all our gay ass double teaming out of small ball, and won.

Amare averaged 40 a game, but was a black hole on offense for his team - whenever it went to him, it never came back out, and his team was done playing in 6 games.

[strangeweather]

The point was that you let Dirk get his and worry about the rest of the Mavs, much like we let Amare get his last year and shut down the other Suns.

I'm sorry this is so hard for you. Dirk averaged 30 a game, but set up his teammates due to all our gay ass double teaming out of small ball, and won.

So sending Tim out away from the paint to let Dirk shoot easy 3s over him is the answer?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

One, Dirk was very rarely shooting threes.

Two, like I said - let Dirk get 40 a game and lock down the damn paint. I think Devin Harris scored every point of his in this series in the paint.

**** 25 offensive rebounds with three of the four Mavs wins coming by less than 8 points****

That's why you have to protect the paint. Do you even understand what the paint is? What offensive rebounds and second chance points are?

[strangeweather]

One, Dirk was very rarely shooting threes.

And you don't think that putting Tim on him would have given him a pretty strong incentive to move out to the perimeter and shoot some?

That's why you have to protect the paint. Do you even understand what the paint is? What offensive rebounds and second chance points are?

Yes, and if we move Tim out to the perimeter, for the life of me, I can't see how that improves our defense in the paint or our ability to pull down rebounds.

[ploto]

The ONE game in this series that Nazr and Rasho played any significant time was game 2. Well, you know the rest....

Just for the record, Pop never tried Rasho in game 2. He gave that opportunity to Nazr because Nazr is believed to be the better match-up for Dallas. Rasho came in with less than 4 minutes to go in that game.

Rasho played his most minutes in game 1, which we won and in which we played the least small ball, but when Griffin was moved out of the line-up, we no longer had someone to hide a mismatched defender on.

[duncan2k5]

some of you have terrible basketball IQ. we have been winning OUR way ever since duncan came in the league. the mave our rebounded us by a very large margin...many of them were offensive. judging by the margin we lost the games by, getting defensive rebounds would have taken away some of those point. they got a lot of points in the paint because they attacked. there was even a timeout where avery reminded them to attack the rim because we have no shotblockers. i would like with josh howard taking a 3 as opposed to taking tony parker down low for an easy 2.

rasho had good defense. i would put tim duncan or rasho on dirk. ppl keep saying timmy would get in foul trouble...guess what? the only reason he was picking up those fould was help defense when dirk took our lil guys down low. timmy is a perennial all defensive player. quit acting like dirk is f*cking larry bord or some shyt. dirk was either taking our lil guys down low, or shooting over them. he cant shoot over tim duncan, and if he drives past him, there is rasho at the rim who is a good shotblocker. plus with rasho in the game, all the guard penetration would be turning into jumpshots.


even if you dont want timmy to guard dirk, like someone said he can guard josh howard. timmy guarded him before in the season when we played them and we won. and that was the injured timmy. tim wont play him tight because he isnt a good shooter. timmy would play off howard, so even if he drives to the bucket...a shotblocker...thats spurs basketball. then we would get more rebounds, more posessions, and more points. thats smart basketball.

[duncan2k5]

and another thing. some of you bring up the point that we were in the games...it shouldnt be like that. we are the better team. we shouldnt be trying to keep up with them. and just because we were int he games playing small ball, doesnt mean thats the best option. its like playing the pistons without tim duncan and winning/losing a close game. you cant say "we were in the game, so we need to continue to do this" just because you were close. if we played like we always played for the past few years, we win this series in 6. thats all im saying

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yes, and if we move Tim out to the perimeter, for the life of me, I can't see how that improves our defense in the paint or our ability to pull down rebounds.

Who says Tim would have been out on the perimeter with Dirk?

[wauk]

You beat a team like Dallas with physical play. Dirk is soft, pound him over and over again and he will quit. This was not done to him. The Eastern Conference champ (whichever it is) will grind either Dallas or PHX into powder. Series will be 6 games max. Never allow the opponent to dictate to you always dictate to your opponent.

[strangeweather]

Who says Tim would have been out on the perimeter with Dirk?

Well, you said you were going to put him on Dirk. Either Tim goes out there to cover him, or Dirk is shooting completely uncontested jumpers. Letting Dirk take jumpshot practice completely unguarded all night is an even dumber idea than sending Duncan out to the perimeter.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Well, you said you were going to put him on Dirk.

I'd have Rasho or Nazr on the guy most of the time, actually, and let Tim help on defense from the weakside.

[strangeweather]

I'd have Rasho or Nazr on the guy most of the time, actually, and let Tim help on defense from the weakside.

Okay, so you have added a center to provide better rebounding and help defense inside, but the poor bas isn't inside to do any of those things -- he's out on the perimeter guarding Dirk.

Again, unless you're leaving Dirk wide open.

[boutons_]

Small ball: Game1 WCF points in the paint: Mavs 74 vs Suns 72.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Okay, so you have added a center to provide better rebounding and help defense inside, but the poor bas isn't inside to do any of those things -- he's out on the perimeter guarding Dirk.

Again, unless you're leaving Dirk wide open.

Do you really think Avery would have had Dirk going outside on every single play? Quit being so dense.

[strangeweather]

Do you really think Avery would have had Dirk going outside on every single play? Quit being so dense.

If he has a man on him that can't possibly cover him outside, why wouldn't he?

If Dallas put Devin Harris on Duncan, wouldn't you pretty much post him up all night long?

Basketball 101: if you have a completely ridiculous matchup, exploit it until you've buried your opponent.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If he has a man on him that can't possibly cover him outside, why wouldn't he?

Because the outside jumper isn't as reliable as the shot in the paint.

[strangeweather]

Because the outside jumper isn't as reliable as the shot in the paint.

If it's a total mismatch, the outside jumper is pretty reliable.

Plus, if Dirk pulls the supposed help defender out to the perimeter, he opens up the paint for Harris, Howard, and everyone else.

So, let's summarize what we have here:

1. Dirk getting easy jumpers because he has a lousy defender on him.

2. The trip to the basket isn't any harder for anyone else, because even with a center, there still isn't another help defender.

3. The center isn't in position to grab rebounds, because he's covering Dirk.

4. We've replaced a guy who can shoot with a center that has no real offensive game, and giftwrapped Dallas's ability to use Dirk as a help defender in the paint.

How is this a big win for us?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Plus, if Dirk pulls the supposed help defender out to the perimeter, he opens up the paint for Harris, Howard, and everyone else.

I don't even know how many times in this thread I have said that they would let dirk get his (like Amare last year), and close the lane down on the rest of 'em.

So let's summarize what we have here:

You think our small ball defense was brilliant. We lost the series 4-3.

I think our small ball defense sucks, and the personnel management last year won us a ring.

Thanks for playing. I'm tired of the stupid ass circular discussion, you can scream you're right all you want, I can do the same, but in the end it gets us no where.

All I know is that Pop got beat in this series, and he was too chicken to even try anything different to change the flow of the series, which was all Mavs.

[strangeweather]

I don't even know how many times in this thread I have said that they would let dirk get his (like Amare last year), and close the lane down on the rest of 'em.

Okay, so you leave the help defender in the lane, and you leave Dirk completely open on the perimeter.

Letting Dirk "get his" is not the same thing as not even defending him. He could drop 100 (or more) on us if we just leave him open all night.

That is just brilliant basketball strategy.

[BgT]

If it's a total mismatch, the outside jumper is pretty reliable.

Plus, if Dirk pulls the supposed help defender out to the perimeter, he opens up the paint for Harris, Howard, and everyone else.

So, let's summarize what we have here:

1. Dirk getting easy jumpers because he has a lousy defender on him.

2. The trip to the basket isn't any harder for anyone else, because even with a center, there still isn't another help defender.

3. The center isn't in position to grab rebounds, because he's covering Dirk.

4. We've replaced a guy who can shoot with a center that has no real offensive game, and giftwrapped Dallas's ability to use Dirk as a help defender in the paint.

How is this a big win for us?

Pop, is that you? I knew you sound familiar. You've come to the right place to get some feedback about what went wrong in the series, but try to LEARN from your mistakes. You can't persuade anyone that you were right, because you are trying to do that from a fishing boat. Everybody makes mistakes, only smart people learn from them. Ok? Ok.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Letting Dirk "get his" is not the same thing as not even defending him. He could drop 100 (or more) on us if we just leave him open all night.

That is just brilliant basketball strategy.

You really think Dirk would take 100 shots in a game? Because that's about the clip he'd have to shoot to hit 100 points.

Or are you saying the guy is going to become an 80% shooter from three? Either way, that's some good pot you're smoking.

[strangeweather]

You really think Dirk would take 100 shots in a game? Because that's about the clip he'd have to shoot to hit 100 points.

Or are you saying the guy is going to become an 80% shooter from three? Either way, that's some good pot you're smoking.

Any decent long-ball shooter in the NBA could shoot 70% or better from outside if no one ever covered them.

Your plan is equivalent to saying: "Okay, we're not going to put anyone at all on Randy Moss, but we're going to shut down everyone else. He can't really catch all that many balls with no one covering him, can he?"

You've called me an idiot several times in this thread, but you are a complete and irredeemable idiot if you think that the answer to beating the Mavs is to take an MVP-candidate jumpshooter and leave him ing open all night.