New Ways of Spurs Basketball

[Kori Ellis]

but you said.....

Nevermind.


Will they get better?

Who knows. I don't know what the fix is.


I do know one thing, if Pop keeps Eric WIlliams on the bench, hes a loon.


Williams played great defense, shot the ball very well, and looked great out there.


Should be kept for the rest of the year, not cut or traded.

I didn't think he played very good D at all. But he shot well and isn't that fat anymore.

[Nikos]

Points Per Possesion.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/d_de.htm

I havent checked exactly, but they clearly allow the fewest amount of FTs in the league. Also they are good once again at the 3pt line ( I think ). Teams might hit a high %, but the don't at the 3pt line and they don't get to the line much against the Spurs relative to how often they do against other NBA teams.

BTW, the Bucks are the worst defensive team in the league. And they are actually worse on offense (8th). How was it the Spurs couldn't find a way to win this game at home?

[Kori Ellis]

Points Per Possesion.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/d_de.htm

I havent checked exactly, but they clearly allow the fewest amount of FTs in the league. Also they are good once again at the 3pt line ( I think ). Teams might hit a high %, but the don't at the 3pt line and they don't get to the line much against the Spurs relative to how often they do against other NBA teams.

BTW, the Bucks are the worst defensive team in the league. And they are actually worse on offense (8th). How was it the Spurs couldn't find a way to win this game at home?

Because their interior D is awful and they gave up 70+ points in the paint.

[Nikos]

What's their FG% Defense? 15th? How does that make them a top 3 elite defensive team?

Just because they blew out some teams and kept their opp ppg low, doesn't mean they are good defensively.

Are you guys watching these games?

Well yeah, in a handful of games or so they look awful defensively. But that will happen. When you compare them to the past 3 years, their defense has been pretty bad. Game by game basis AND stats wise. Just trying to give some perspective. The stats show they are much worse than in the past, which your observations agree with.

But if your going to use FG% with the rest of the NBA, you might as well use Points Per Possesion. I know its tough to decipher in the game, but the human eye can only see so much. From watching every single game and looking at the stats, the Spurs are clearly worse on defense than past seasons, by a wide margin. But when comparing to the rest of the NBA they are still elite.

[Das Texan]

The defense we are playing sucks hardcore. I havent seen defense this bad by a Spurs team since long before we started winning les.

It may even be the worst since the year we tanked and then it was because we had no players on that team.

If you arent the least bit concerned, then you are simply not in any real basketball state of mind. Or, you arent a spurs fan.

I hate the way this team is playing. I could care less what we are scoring, as long as we are stopping people. We arent stopping people and look like defense so I'm sick.

[Das Texan]

Well yeah, in a handful of games or so they look awful defensively. But that will happen. When you compare them to the past 3 years, their defense has been pretty bad. Game by game basis AND stats wise. Just trying to give some perspective. The stats show they are much worse than in the past, which your observations agree with.

But if your going to use FG% with the rest of the NBA, you might as well use Points Per Possesion. I know its tough to decipher in the game, but the human eye can only see so much. From watching every single game and looking at the stats, the Spurs are clearly worse on defense than past seasons, by a wide margin. But when comparing to the rest of the NBA they are still elite.

the Spurs have always used fg% under pop.

it has never been this bad.

points per possession is a useless stat and in many regards one of those who cares stats.

The Spurs are in no way elite when it comes to defense right now.

[Nikos]

Because their interior D is awful and they gave up 70+ points in the paint.

Right this game they were awful. The interior D in general hasn't been near what it was in the past. But their D is still pretty good in the long run. Do I wish it was better? Sure. But I also wish their offense would get better too. Not only now but in the past I always wanted them to be more consistent.

[Das Texan]

Right this game they were awful. The interior D in general hasn't been near what it was in the past. But their D is still pretty good in the long run. Do I wish it was better? Sure. But I also wish their offense would get better too. Not only now but in the past I always wanted them to be more consistent.

are you watching the same team?

[Nikos]

the Spurs have always used fg% under pop.

it has never been this bad.

points per possession is a useless stat and in many regards one of those who cares stats.

The Spurs are in no way elite when it comes to defense right now.

Your arguing terminologies, but if your going to see Points Per Possesion is useless, then say FG% is useless -- cause PPP is actually a better version of FG%.

[Kori Ellis]

Well yeah, in a handful of games or so they look awful defensively. But that will happen. When you compare them to the past 3 years, their defense has been pretty bad. Game by game basis AND stats wise. Just trying to give some perspective. The stats show they are much worse than in the past, which your observations agree with.

But if your going to use FG% with the rest of the NBA, you might as well use Points Per Possesion. I know its tough to decipher in the game, but the human eye can only see so much. From watching every single game and looking at the stats, the Spurs are clearly worse on defense than past seasons, by a wide margin. But when comparing to the rest of the NBA they are still elite.

It's not a handful of games. Even in many of the Spurs wins, they look awful defensively. Sure they might be able to have a run and outscore someone, or hang on to a lead because they had a big first half. But 100+ points per game aren't going to happen for the Spurs with regularity in the post season, they need to be able to get stops.

I honestly don't care that much about any of the stats of it, so I shouldn't even bring up opp. FG% (though that is a big indicator for the Spurs). I'm watching the games and I can easily see that this is a bad defensive team on a lot of nights. It's not an elite defensive team right now.

[Das Texan]

Your arguing terminologies, but if your going to see Points Per Possesion is useless, then say FG% is useless -- cause PPP is actually a better version of FG%.

its not what the spurs have always used as the indicator of their defense. FG% goes largely into the ability to prevent the opposing team from making field goals, which is the biggest part of playing defense.

[Nikos]

It's not a handful of games. Even in many of the Spurs wins, they look awful defensively. Sure they might be able to have a run and outscore someone, or hang on to a lead because they had a big first half. But 100+ points per game aren't going to happen for the Spurs with regularity in the post season.

I honestly don't care that much about any of the stats of it, so I shouldn't even bring up opp. FG% (though that is a big indicator for the Spurs). I'm watching the games and I can easily see that this is a bad defensive team on a lot of nights. It's not an elite defensive team right now.

How do you know what other teams are elite on D, unless you watched every single game of every team? I gave the stats to give perspective on the Spurs standing with the league. Not to compare them to their past defenses, which were some of the best defenses of all time.

[Das Texan]

It's not a handful of games. Even in many of the Spurs wins, they look awful defensively. Sure they might be able to have a run and outscore someone, or hang on to a lead because they had a big first half. But 100+ points per game aren't going to happen for the Spurs with regularity in the post season, they need to be able to get stops.

I honestly don't care that much about any of the stats of it, so I shouldn't even bring up opp. FG% (though that is a big indicator for the Spurs). I'm watching the games and I can easily see that this is a bad defensive team on a lot of nights. It's not an elite defensive team right now.

its not even good kori.


the biggest thing I see is just a lack of desire overall and a poor effort to rotate properly.

I dont know what it is neither.

[Kori Ellis]

How do you know what other teams are elite on D, unless you watched every single game of every team? I gave the stats to give perspective on the Spurs standing with the league. Not to compare them to their past defenses, which were some of the best defenses of all time.

I don't watch every single game, but I watch about 30 NBA games a week. The Spurs aren't good defensively compared this year's NBA, last year's Spurs team, whatever. They aren't that good right now. They give up on a lot of defensive possessions. Duncan whines. He lets opponents drive by him. There's not intensity. The rotations suck. The help sucks. It's like that A LOT. Not every night. But not just in a handful of games.

[Nikos]

I don't watch every single game, but I watch about 30 NBA games a week. The Spurs aren't good defensively compared this year's NBA, last year's Spurs team, whatever. They aren't that good right now.

I agree they aren't THAT good. But they still are a pretty good defensive team in regards to the rest of the NBA.

Compared to the past they have sucked. To call them elite might sound strange considering the team D being terrible in several games (maybe even half or so). But I guess you could say they had some games where blowouts might have skewed things a bit. But I don't see how you can call them an average or bad defensive team with the rest of the teams in the NBA. They still are pretty good. Just not nearly as good as in the past or where they probably need to be.

[ShoogarBear]

One small point: the problem with offensive FG% is that a missed shot is meaningless unless you get the defensive rebound. Shooting 1 for 4 with three offensive rebounds is equivalent for all intents to shooting 1 for 1. I don't know how points per possession is calculated, but if in that same example 1-4 is treated as four possessions then it is also meaningless.

I'm willing to accept that the Spurs will never match the full-game defensive stats of 1999. But what they need to do is show they can bring defensive intensity when it's needed in the 4th Q. They were doing that earlier in the year for a few games, but now they seem to have lazy-ed themselves into not being able to get stops.

[Kori Ellis]

They were doing that earlier in the year for a few games, but now they seem to have lazy-ed themselves into not being able to get stops.

I agree. I don't think they are incapable (though the jury is still out on some people catching on). I think they are lazy or don't care or have lulled themselves into think they are good because they have been winning. But it's sick to watch. The Houston game made me almost throw up to see how much they let anybody who wanted to go to the rack. This game, same crap. They are BAD defensively right now.

[Nikos]

One small point: the problem with offensive FG% is that a missed shot is meaningless unless you get the defensive rebound. Shooting 1 for 4 with three offensive rebounds is equivalent for all intents to shooting 1 for 1. I don't know how points per possession is calculated, but if in that same example 1-4 is treated as four possessions then it is also meaningless.

I'm willing to accept that the Spurs will never match the full-game defensive stats of 1999. But what they need to do is show they can bring defensive intensity when it's needed in the 4th Q. They were doing that earlier in the year for a few games, but now they seem to have lazy-ed themselves into not being able to get stops.

You do realize that examples 1-4 happen to pretty much every team? How can the stat be meaningless in an 82 game season? Its a pretty good barometer of what teams were most efficient over the 82 game season. It helps normalize for things like Pace (think Suns or Nuggets vs slow paced teams like Pistons, Mavs, Spurs).

[Nikos]

The Spurs in 2004 had the best defensive efficiency of ALL TIME. Now they might not have been the best equiped against certain teams like LA. But over an 82 game season they had the best statistical year on the defensive end. Slight edge over the Knicks of 1994 and even bigger edge over the Spurs of 1999. Spurs of 1999 might have been better in terms of matchups and against the elite teams with elite big men come playoff time -- but the Spurs of 2004 deserve props for their defensive versatility. They had a solid defender at each position, excellent team defense, shot blocking, defensive stopper in Bruce, and solid rebounders at all other positions.

[Nikos]

I agree. I don't think they are incapable (though the jury is still out on some people catching on). I think they are lazy or don't care or have lulled themselves into think they are good because they have been winning. But it's sick to watch. The Houston game made me almost throw up to see how much they let anybody who wanted to go to the rack. This game, same crap. They are BAD defensively right now.

God I almost forgot about that game. That made me real pissed too. Houston WITHOUT Yao looked like they were running a clinic -- and could score at will. This is a team that would be the worst offensive team in the league by far without Yao. Even with Yao they aren't that far from being a horrible offensive team.

Sad effort by the Spurs in that game especially.

[timvp]

Well, Nikos got his wish and now the Spurs are an elite offensive team.

[Nikos]

Well, Nikos got his wish and now the Spurs are an elite offensive team.

Well when they were the best defensive team of all time they lost in the semifinals. Last year they were the best defensive team in the league. Look where it got them.

Like I said I want them to be balanced and elite on both ends. Right now they are borderline elite on both ends depending on what the word 'elite' means. In this case I mean roughly Top 3 statistically. To me I just want them to improve a little on both ends. It will add up to another championship if they can regain their defensive composure and improve their offense from prior seasons.

[MannyIsGod]

Anyone who thinks the Spurs are a top 10 team right now need to watch tapes of the last few games. Watch how Duncan played the Houston game and come back and tell me this is a championship team.

If you can do that you're either:

a) Re ed
b) Blind
c) Really ing re ed and really ing blind.

[ShoogarBear]

Nikos, I hope you are not seriously trying to say the 2004 Spurs were the best defensive team of all time. That would negate the value of points per possession right then and there.

[timvp]

Points Per Possession is going to be skewed in the Spurs because the Spurs don't foul. That's part of the Spurs' defensive scheme and has been since Pop became coach. Think about it, even if you let teams shoot 55% from the floor but don't foul anyone ... that's better Points Per Possession than a team that holds team to 40% but fouls. That's because the NBA shoots 74% from the free throw line. Of course if you don't foul, you aren't going to give up 57% field goal percentage (~57% = equivalent FG% for each possession you send someone to the line) even if you are the Phoenix Suns.

Talking about the Phoenix Suns, they are 14th in the league in Points Per Possession. So unless you think the Suns are a better than average defensive team, you can pretty much throw that stat back in the trash.

Don't foul at all and give up 55% field goal percentage and you'd lead the league.