ESPN Top 10 Centers

[Despot]

don't know if this has been posted...

Scoop Jackson's reason for not picking Robinson and going with Walton

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...jackson/070307




Sick if you ask me

Noone noticed this from the article:

David Robinson!?!" I think I exasperated back. David Robinson never got to the NBA Finals until Tim Duncan got there and even when he did get that first ring he did it against the Knicks when Patrick wasn't playing.

Shocked he didn't mention the asterisk, as it seems he was just looking for a reason to discount Robinson. I agree with the poster above that mentioned it is moronic to discount David because he had the help of another star. How many other players on that list were able to get a ring without the help of another star? Someone needs to e-mail him and alert him to his stupidity.

(I'm putting one of these smilies only cause my wife wanted me too...)

[lefty]

He could never run like Drob...he was 7'3 300lbs and he when he ran the earth rumbpled...

David Robinson was probably the fastest player in the NBA early in his career.




Try not to use Youtube clips as a subs ute for knowledge...

Drob lead the NBA in slam dunks 3 years in a row...you'll be lucky if you can find more than one or two dunks on youtube by him.

So, apparently u haven't seen the full video....

And don't get me started on knowledge, I lived in Europe and watched games of Euroleague featuring Sabonis ("recent" or reruns of his 80's games) ; he was much lighter back then
Damn, Skinny Sabonis could have taken D-Rob anytime. Well, he did :

Brian Meehan, a columnist for The Oregonian, followed Sabonis' career over the course of decades. Recalling the 1988 Olympics, when Sabonis' Soviet team beat a United States team with the likes of David Robinson, Meehan notes one play when a healthy Sabonis reacted to a teammate's missed shot: Sabonis slashed towards the rim, jumped over Robinson, and slammed the ball home. Meehan is of the opinion that it was the play of Arvydas in the '88 Olympics that influenced Team USA to use professional players in the Olympics, thus the "Dream Teams" of 1992 and 1996. Meehan ranks Sabonis as the 6th best all-time center behind, in no particular order, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

U don't know what u're talking about, so please don't say anything.....

[whottt]

It's a highlight clip...

I can show you one where James White looks like the next Jordan...

[lefty]

It's a highlight clip...



I can show you one where James White looks like the next Jordan...

Mmm...Sabonis was already an established pro basketball star back then, unlike James White

Yes it's a highlight clip ; and that was nothing compared to what he was able to do back then........

Brian Meehan, a columnist for The Oregonian, followed Sabonis' career over the course of decades. Recalling the 1988 Olympics, when Sabonis' Soviet team beat a United States team with the likes of David Robinson, Meehan notes one play when a healthy Sabonis reacted to a teammate's missed shot: Sabonis slashed towards the rim, jumped over Robinson, and slammed the ball home. Meehan is of the opinion that it was the play of Arvydas in the '88 Olympics that influenced Team USA to use professional players in the Olympics, thus the "Dream Teams" of 1992 and 1996. Meehan ranks Sabonis as the 6th best all-time center behind, in no particular order, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

[whottt]

Brian Meehan, a columnist for The Oregonian, followed Sabonis' career over the course of decades. Recalling the 1988 Olympics, when Sabonis' Soviet team beat a United States team with the likes of David Robinson, Meehan notes one play when a healthy Sabonis reacted to a teammate's missed shot: Sabonis slashed towards the rim, jumped over Robinson, and slammed the ball home. Meehan is of the opinion that it was the play of Arvydas in the '88 Olympics that influenced Team USA to use professional players in the Olympics, thus the "Dream Teams" of 1992 and 1996. Meehan ranks Sabonis as the 6th best all-time center behind, in no particular order, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

He's right...it was Sabonis that caused the Dream Team to use NBA players...since Sabonis and 2/3 rds of Team USSR were playing in pro leagues and scrimmaging against NBA Teams.


Here's the deal...Sabonis got Drob once for a Gold Medal, Sabonis also got outscored and outrebounded in that game, in which team USA was missing two starters...


Drob got Sabonis 3 times for a Gold Medal, including once before the Dream Team Era...he also got him once for a championship.


PWNT. And Drob was just as old and broken down as Sabonis.

Oberto got Duncan too in the Olympics...he also made J O'Neal and Elton Brande look like punks in the WC...how's that turning out now?

[lefty]

Comparing Oberto to Sabas?

My point is that when healthy (he put weight because of his many injuries) and skinny, he was as good as any great NBA center ; and he had that outside jumper and astonishing passing game too ; in a word (well, 5): he was the ultimate center. If he could have joined the NBA in his early 20's, it would have been amazing.

[whottt]

Here ya go Lefty...check out this dude...another Lithuanian. People are calling him EuroWilt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNwkeNIOkOo

[lefty]

Here ya go Lefty...check out this dude...another Lithuanian. People are calling him EuroWilt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNwkeNIOkOo

Yeah I know that guy


So what? Arvydas was for real ; heck, D-Rob and Shaq admired him ; they will never admire Oberto

[whottt]

Sabonis = 1 Olympic Gold Medal playing with some pros including some future NBA players against a college team.

Oberto = 1 Olympic Gold Medal playing with some pros and including some future NBA players against an NBA team.

Therefore...

Oberto>Sabonis

And Tim Duncan admires Oberto...

Since Tim Duncan = Greatest PF of all time

And since Shaq only = 6th greatest C of all time...

Tim Duncan > Shaq

And therefore Tim Duncan admiring Oberto > Anyone else but Wilt admiring Sabonis.

[bobbyjoe]

Oh, now Mavs Fan wants to move on, now that we're talking about how 3 of the greatest centers beat them like red-headed sisters repeatedly in the 90s and into the 21st century. So I take it we should go back to bringing up crude insults involving our relatives or feminine hygiene, or copying some anti-Republican screed someone got off the internet?

I have a good idea for a relevant study: The 10 greatest games played against the Mavs by David, Hakeem, Shaq, and ... Ewing. Anyone have the stats for those?

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/playoffs/1988/box4-28

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/playoffs/1988/box4-30

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/playoffs/1988/box5-3

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/playoffs/1988/box5-5

These are boxscores from the Rockets-Mavericks Playoff series in 1988. For the series, Akeem averaged 37.5 ppg and 17 boards a game on 58% FG.

Bear in mind, Hakeem was only good for 3-4 yrs and these stats are from games where Hakeem wasn't anything special, so I can only imagine what he dropped down when he was actually a good player for that 3-4 yr run!

Was Jordan really that good besides the 6 yrs he won les?!

I mean where are the les the other yrs?!

[bobbyjoe]

I like Tim Legler's list the best.

[slayermin]

If Russell came up today, you'd recognize him as Dennis Rodman without all the nonsense. Now Rodman was great in his way, but would you take him ahead of Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Dave, etc.?

Me neither.

And I would pick the following players before I picked Russell.

Magic
MJ
TD
Bird
Oscar

Don't get me wrong, Bill Russell is the greatest defensive force to ever play in the NBA. But if he was the focal point of your offense, you would be lucky to score 70 points.

Bob Pet led the NBA in desire in 1958, as we all know, so it's no wonder the Hawks defeated the Celtics and Russell's off-year in desire that season.

Nice. A Bob Pet reference.

In regards to George Mikan, he was the best player for a six year span. His last seasons came right before the Celtic dominance. I get the league wasn't as integrated as it is now but the league had talented players.

I think you would have to think of Mikan in terms of choosing between TD and Dwight Howard. Though Howard will probably have an incredible career, you wouldn't pick him over TD. And it would be tough not to pick a Patrick Ewing or a Nate Thurmond over Mikan to start your franchise. But something has to be said about a player that wins. And Mikan was a winner.

As far as the Shaq/Admiral argument, I hate Shaq. I hated Shaq when he was in Orlando when the sarge would round up the Shaq posse and leave the game early when they didn't agree with the refs. I hated Shaq when he made up stories about how the Admiral snubbed him in highschool. I hated Shaq when he was playing out his feud with Kobe in the press. I hated his lame ass movies except for Blue Chips. I hated his "What's Up Doc?" video. And I still can't stand him.

But I think he is the third best center of all-time because when he was motivated (in his prime), he was unstoppable. If the Admiral played better with his back to the basket, Admiral wins in a mile. But because Shaq physically dominated in the low post like no other since Wilt, he edges Olajuwon and Admiral, imo.

[Obstructed_View]

this . Whottt, I'm changing my vote. Some of these mother ers love to repeat that "Hakeem dominated Robinson" line as an argument against him. Robinson was 32-16 against Olajuwon head to head. Robinson was 30-7 against Ewing.

[SRJ]

In regards to George Mikan, he was the best player for a six year span. His last seasons came right before the Celtic dominance. I get the league wasn't as integrated as it is now but the league had talented players.

I think you would have to think of Mikan in terms of choosing between TD and Dwight Howard. Though Howard will probably have an incredible career, you wouldn't pick him over TD. And it would be tough not to pick a Patrick Ewing or a Nate Thurmond over Mikan to start your franchise. But something has to be said about a player that wins. And Mikan was a winner.

As far as the Shaq/Admiral argument, I hate Shaq. I hated Shaq when he was in Orlando when the sarge would round up the Shaq posse and leave the game early when they didn't agree with the refs. I hated Shaq when he made up stories about how the Admiral snubbed him in highschool. I hated Shaq when he was playing out his feud with Kobe in the press. I hated his lame ass movies except for Blue Chips. I hated his "What's Up Doc?" video. And I still can't stand him.

But I think he is the third best center of all-time because when he was motivated (in his prime), he was unstoppable. If the Admiral played better with his back to the basket, Admiral wins in a mile. But because Shaq physically dominated in the low post like no other since Wilt, he edges Olajuwon and Admiral, imo.

I couldn't put Mikan in my top ten, and for me it's hard to locate a proper place for him or other late 40's/early 50's stars - Andy Philip, Dolph Schayes, Slater Martin, Neil Johnston, McGuire, Jim Pollard to name a handful - because the game was vastly different then. They didn't keep official rebounding stats. The lane was six feet wide. There was no shot clock for years. Perimeter shooting looked absolutely nothing like it does now, and if FG% is any kind of reliable indicator, the two-hand set shot wasn't especially effective.

From what little Mikan footage I've seen, athletically he looks a little like Danny Manning plus some nifty little post moves, minus a jump shot. (Although big men were probably waived if they tried to shoot jumpers back in those days)

I know it's not fair to Mikan and a few others, but I do tend to leave stars from his era out of my lists - the reason being I just don't know enough. The records are incomplete, the game was almost totally different, and video footage from that time is awful hard to come by. Relative to his own era Mikan was as dominant as anyone, but I really doubt he was that good. If Mikan was 22 years old today, would he even get drafted? I don't know.

As for Shaq, I had him fourth after Wilt, Kareem, and Hakeem, just ahead of Dave. Shaq has had sidekicks named Kobe and Wade (and Penny before he got hurt) helping him along, while Olajuwon had an aging (but still effective) Drexler and THE! Otis Thorpe playing second fiddle. That's why I have Hakeem third and Shaq fourth.

[slayermin]

They didn't keep official rebounding stats. The lane was six feet wide. There was no shot clock for years. Perimeter shooting looked absolutely nothing like it does now, and if FG% is any kind of reliable indicator, the two-hand set shot wasn't especially effective.

I have to agree with the stats, especially the FG Pct. But he shot free throws well so I wonder how accurate the FG Percentages were back then.

Anyway, I did find this cool article about Mikan.

Mikan Article

[slayermin]

As for Shaq, I had him fourth after Wilt, Kareem, and Hakeem, just ahead of Dave. Shaq has had sidekicks named Kobe and Wade (and Penny before he got hurt) helping him along, while Olajuwon had an aging (but still effective) Drexler and THE! Otis Thorpe playing second fiddle. That's why I have Hakeem third and Shaq fourth.

I forgot to respond to this part. I think it's easy to overlook the shooters Hakeem had on his team. They had arguably the greatest collection of clutch shooters ever assembled. Offensively, Olajuwon was smoother and more imaginitive down low but defenses had more problems with Shaq.

[mabber]

He could never run like Drob...he was 7'3 300lbs and he when he ran the earth rumbpled...

David Robinson was probably the fastest player in the NBA early in his career.

[lefty]

Sabonis = 1 Olympic Gold Medal playing with some pros including some future NBA players against a college team.

Oberto = 1 Olympic Gold Medal playing with some pros and including some future NBA players against an NBA team.

Therefore...

Oberto>Sabonis

And Tim Duncan admires Oberto...

Since Tim Duncan = Greatest PF of all time

And since Shaq only = 6th greatest C of all time...

Tim Duncan > Shaq

And therefore Tim Duncan admiring Oberto > Anyone else but Wilt admiring Sabonis.

[Ockham]

I know I missed the Scoop Jackson criticism earlier, but I just read his article and I can't resist: He had both Patrick Ewing and Bob McAdoo ranked ahead of Robinson. That's unconscionable! And look at his reason for excluding Robinson:

"David Robinson never got to the NBA Finals until Tim Duncan got there and even when he did get that first ring he did it against the Knicks when Patrick wasn't playing."

I guess Scoop would be more impressed if Robinson won with a second-rate cast like McAdoo did, with hacks like Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and James Worthy, all in their primes.

Mercy, how has Scoop Jackson's head not exploded from all the cognitive dissonance?

[monosylab1k]

he did it against the Knicks when Patrick wasn't playing

One could argue that the Spurs would have beaten the Knicks with alot more ease if Ewing WAS playing. The guy had a major history of disappearing in big games. There's even the "Ewing Theory" named after him because his team always seemed to do alot better without him.

[ambchang]

One could argue that the Spurs would have beaten the Knicks with alot more ease if Ewing WAS playing. The guy had a major history of disappearing in big games. There's even the "Ewing Theory" named after him because his team always seemed to do alot better without him.

Not so much for disappearing, but so much more for stagnating the offense when he was there. Ewing's slow on offense.

[mardigan]

One could argue that the Spurs would have beaten the Knicks with alot more ease if Ewing WAS playing. The guy had a major history of disappearing in big games. There's even the "Ewing Theory" named after him because his team always seemed to do alot better without him.

Larry Johnson didnt play in that series either, it was basically Allan Houston and Sprewell vs. the Spurs, Im amazed they actually did as well as they did

[lefty]

Not so much for disappearing, but so much more for stagnating the offense when he was there. Ewing's slow on offense.

True ; and the Knicks got better without him during their 1999 Finals run, because they could run better

[lefty]

this . Whottt, I'm changing my vote. Some of these mother ers love to repeat that "Hakeem dominated Robinson" line as an argument against him. Robinson was 32-16 against Olajuwon head to head. Robinson was 30-7 against Ewing.

It's not a one-on-one game ; others factors count too : teamamtes, coaches, etc... I remember a game where Robinson destroyed Ewing ; still, the Knicks won

[SRJ]

Larry Johnson didnt play in that series either, it was basically Allan Houston and Sprewell vs. the Spurs, Im amazed they actually did as well as they did

If you're referring to the 1999 NBA Finals, you're incorrect. Johnson played in all five games and here's his line:

37 MPG
28% FG%
61.5% FT%
7.6 PPG
4.8 RPG
1.4 APG
1.2 SPG
0.2 BPG
1.6 TOPG