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Well that year was his last, if I remember correctly. And his back problems were so bad at that point that he was a complete s of his former self.
Hmm, for some reason I seemed to remember him being hurt, my fault
Well that year was his last, if I remember correctly. And his back problems were so bad at that point that he was a complete s of his former self.
Johnson played two more seasons, but yeah, you are right about his back issues. He was pretty ineffective after that, and probably wouldn't have gotten so much playing time had he not established himself the way he had.
He was she though when he was Grandmama, someone should post a sweet pic of that
Well done sir, well done
Also, the Spurs had a run of 12 straight wins against Houston when Duncan arrived. At this point it was 35 yr old Dave vs. 38 yr old Hakeem.
Putting stock in those games when both Dave and Hakeem were winding down but the Spurs dominated the series because Houston was rebuilding and SA had a young superstar in Duncan is nuts. Same with New York vs. SA. I dont recall DRob dominating Ewing in the individual matchups, though he may have outplayed him.
If you go back and look at basketball reference.com and see the boxscores from the HOU/SA games when Dave and Hakeem were younger, Hakeem had the individual edge more often than not.
If you were to just go with W-L, then Duncan <<Malone, because Malone was 2-0 against him lifetime in the playoffs.
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Hakeem played 12 games against the Spurs for the Rockets after Duncan arrived? Didn't he go to Toronto in like 98 or 99?
No, he went to Toronto in 2002.
From 98-05 the Spurs owned the Rockets, before the teams split this year. DRob had virtually nothing to do with this, so to use the teams W-L record in the context of a Hakeem-Drob discussion without considering the obvious is silly.
If you want to look at the W-L records of the Spurs-Rockets head to head from the time Robinson entered the league to the tiem Duncan arrived, you'd see that they played each other pretty evenly, the main difference being that Houston got the big wins in the playoff series.
I think the Spurs did have a slight edge in reg season in that time but nothing like 30-12. 30-12 is severely fattened up by the games from 98,99,00, and 01.
As far as the individual #'s in the head to head's, Hakeem had an edge, albeit not domination in the reg season. Postseason everyone knows. It's too bad the team's only got to only play once considering how good both were in that era.
Nope, 2001
So what is the record of DRob vs. Hakeem head to head from 1989 to 1996 (DRob was injured in 97)?
And a pretty good center in Marcus Camby.
15 pages good read!!
People outside of San Antonio (and newer Spurs fans) don't appreciate how great a player David Robinson really was (especially before his back injury).
Talent-wise David ran circles around Shaq. Until his back went out (which fortunately for Spurs fans coincided with the arrival of Tim Duncan).
As far as the original list is concerned however, why does everyone use Olojuwon's perceived ownage of Robinson in the '95 playoffs as a reason to place him above Robinson but then turn around and discredit his sweeping of Shaq in the finals that very year to place him below? Truly inconsistent logic.
Before the question gets asked... the ownage is percieved because overall Hakeem's team was superior to Robinson's weak supporting cast. It shouldn't surprise anyone that the Rockets won even if the Spurs record that year was better. The Rockets had a better team that year hands down. The respective careers of its clutch shooters would later prove that outcome as the rule and not the exception.
Cassell, Elie, Horry, K. Smith were way clutcher than any other shooter on the Spurs squad. So much in fact that Rodman detrimentally went out of character in that series and decided to become a 3pt shooter himself..... an act that hurt his team far more than he realized. If memory serves correct it was Elie, Horry and Cassell who shot the daggers in the series - not Olojuwon - who rarely faced a double team due to the fact that every time he did - his shooters made the Spurs pay. Robinson, on the other hand, was double and triple-teamed the entire series. The Rockets basically dared the Spurs shooters to beat them, and the Spurs failed miserably. Using said series to gauge Robinson's and Olojuwon's placement on such a list, therefore would be skewed on several fronts.
2001
http://www.nba.com/history/players/olajuwon_stats.html
00-01 HOU 58 55 26.6 .498 .000 .621 2.10 5.30 7.40 1.2 1.21 1.52 1.40 2.40 11.9
01-02 TOR 61 37 22.6 .464 .000 .560 1.60 4.40 6.00 1.1 1.21 1.48 1.61 2.40 7.1
Because O'Neal and Olajuwon played a much closer fight. Hakeem did outplay Shaq but didnt dominate him to anywhere near the degree he did Robinson. Also O'Neal was a 3rd yr player in 95 whereas DRob and Hakeem both met right in their peak seasons in 1995, so their matchup was much more defining. 2 player's at their absolute peaks battling for a chance to go to the NBA Finals.
O'Neal also ended up playing at a level equal to if not higher than Hakeem from 00-02. This is why you cant only use the 95 Rocks-Magic series in rating them. For DRob, he clearly never played at the level of Hakeem 93-95 and O'Neal 00--02 which is why not one of the 20 ESPN analysts rated DRob over these 2. He was clearly a cut below.
The reason guys like Horry and Elie and Cassell got wide open 3's on Houston's miid 90's teams was Hakeem. They did not have a creator on that team like a Nash, Kobe, or D Wade. It was all dump it to Hakeem, let teams collapse the middle, and then kickouts for open spot up J's.
Hakeem averaged 5.5 assists a game during that 95 WCF series with SA so the "he wasnt doubled" argument is pure BS. That's more than double his career average in assists. It's also to Hakeem's credit that he developed a shot like a quick turn to the baseline and launch a fadeaway move which was effective even against double teams. DRob had no such move.
He was just a much better playoff performer than David Robinson, no question about it. In the ployoffs, DRob was like a Garnett. Versatile, great player but no go to moves in crunch time.
BTW, per basketball reference.com, the Spurs record against the Rockets from 89-96 was 19-15 in the regular season and 2-4 in the postseason so 21-19 overall. They have the boxscores from everyone of those games and you can see that Hakeem usually got the better of the individual matchups...
It's not "pure BS" as you claim... did you even see the series??? Unfortunately, for me I have the entire series recorded (sadistic I know) and have seen each game at least 3 times...
If a team sends a double-team your way that is very different from being double or triple teamed on an entire possesion like David was. Before he got the ball, while he made his move to the basket, or before he passed the ball out - Robinson saw double coverage continously. David was primarily guarded by Horry and either Kenny or Elie would slide over to guard him; Olojuwon guarded the paint effectively and provided weak side help. That will shutdown anybody.
Robinson, on the other hand, was forced into guarding Olojuwon straight-up most of the series. Every time Rodman helped - Rodman's man would drain a jumper. Every time Del Negro helped - his man would drain a jumper. Every time mings helped - his man would drain a jumper. Every time AJ helped - his man would drain another. You get the point.
Besides you seem to be making the argument for me. "Horry and Elie and Cassell" made their shots. The Spurs' shooters didn't. It has nothing to do with Olojuwon's open looks being much better than those created by Robinson's passing skills because the Spurs were getting the same sort of looks (the fact that you assume those shots have everything to do with the post passer negates the significance of the fact that the shooter still has to hit the shot). In fact, by the 3Q of Game 1 the Rockets sagged off of the Spurs shooters in hope that they would continue with their barrage of bricks. So much so, that crazy Rodman thought he was the 'Rifleman'.
Rodman shot more threes in that series than he did during the entire season. I had my quota of "what the do you think you're doing" moments yelling at the TV - specifically at Rodman. Who seemed much crazier than ever (a weird combination of undiscipline, and detached disinterest).
Also, you like many others before you have failed to identify Robinson's "go-to" move. It was so effective; most didn't realize what it was. It was his ability to get to the foul line. Robinson was so much faster and much more athletically gifted than his peers that he could get there at will. The problem in the Rockets series was that he was forced away from the ball much of the series. This again, because he was double or triple teamed much farther from the basket than he was used to... and naturally from that distance his "go-to" move was inherently less effective.
But feel free to describe Shaq's "go-to" move.... one which doesn't involve an offensive foul of some kind (whether it's called or not). You basically have regurgitated everything the mass media has told you to think on the matter - because Shaq has and continues to be a 'media-darling'.
Say what you want about Robinson... but Shaq would never have led that team anywhere as far as Robinson took it.
You did not watch the series if you think Horry was the primary defender on David Robinson. That is flat out not true. The Rockets defended DRob with Hakeem and when Hakeem went out they put Charles Jones on him.
Horry was on Rodman or Elliott all series long. Did Houston double team David? Yes. But the Spurs doubled Hakeem as well. Hence the doubling of his career assist average and all the wide open 3's for Horry, Cassell, Elie, etc. The difference was that Hakeem torched DRob with upfakes and consistently got David to go flying. Then he got easy layups or kicked out to open shooters when the Spurs had to help.
In that series, the supporting casts at worst netted themselves out. It was Olajuwon's domination of Robinson which was the clear difference in the series.
Robinson was outscored by 12 ppg by Hakeem and for the series the Rockets only outscored SA by 1.7 ppg.
So all Spurs but Robinson outscored all Rockets but Hakeem by over 10 points a game. Avery Johnson averaged something like 20 and 10 that series and destroyed Kenny Smith of Houston.
If not for the Spurs supporting cast' domination of Houston, that series was a sweep. What Hakeem did to David in that series was just wrong. It was punishment.
As for a go to move, you just proved my point by saying Robinson's go-to move was a FT.
A Free Throw is not a go to move.
Kareem's skyhook, Hakeem's baseline turnaround, DUncan's bankshot, O'Neal's power to the basket move, McHale's up and under, those are go to moves. Moves that when the game is close late and the defense is tight and the refs are swallowing their whistles these guys can consistently get that shot off and you can't defend it, just hope it doesnt go in.
Robinson NEVER developed a move like this. Not a jumphook. Not a turnaround. He had an awkward post game.
If you think he's better than O'Neal, that's fine, not one person outside of SA, Texas would agree, not one. Do you think he's better than Michael Jordan and Larry Bird too? You might as well throw those in while you're at it.
DRob's 94-95 cast is better than many that Shaq O'Neal won with. He had a HOF player in Rodman and a fellow all star with Elliott. Vinny Del Negro and Chuck Person were quality outside shooters and AJ was an underrated PG. Shaq 00-02 wins 70 games and a le with this group.
Shaq and Rodman on the same team wouldnt be fair. WIth Shaq's power game, Rodman would make a killing snaring offensive boards as the D converged on him.
If you're going to call David Robinson the Greatest Center Ever, you may as well call him the Greatest Player Ever, because both are equally as utterly ludicrous.
David Robinson was a damn good player, but not nearly as good as you guys make him out to be. No way he's even a top 5 center.
Hey Bobbyjoe...
Drob averaged about 16 FT per game in that series VS about 8 for Hakeem...and those were just the fouls they called. And if you go back and look at their head to head matchups you will find one other common denominator...Hakeem having an assload of fouls in each game.
All you are proving to me is that Tomjonavich must have been a ty coach, which I would find ironic since Pop basically modeled the early Duncan era Spurs after them...and the next time I see Duncan being the primary defender on dominant bigman in a playoff series will be the first.
Hakeem was doubled, but not as much as Drob was...and if you watch, Robinson does most of his scoring damage against Hakeem, not against the doubles.
Fact.
Guess...what Hakeem wasn't that much of a better C than Drob, and that one playoff series with his defending champion veteran tested team + Clyde Drexler in tow...is the only thing you have to hang your ing hat on.
Period.
Deal with it.
PS: That's more than the Shaq fans have to hang their hats on though...they hang their hats on Drob kicking Shaq's ass time and time again up until he was a cripple, then they claim bode.
I love watching LakerFan piss on Kobe though....I guess they think Vinny>Kobe too..
Don't ya Lakerfan?
I am not directing that at bobbyjoe of course, because if he's a LakerFan I'm David Robinson...he's got 87 posts and everyone of them is doing the same thing...Hakeem Olajuwon.
You've lost all credibility whatsoever on the subject. Del Negro?
Go ahead.... look up his numbers.
Now I know you must be smokin' some of that green stuff....
Penny, Kobe, and Wade are way better team-mates than any DRob ever had before Timmy's arrival. You must be delusional to compare All-NBA 1st Teamers with the likes of Elliott, Del Negro, Person, or mings.
And you keep ignoring the clutchness factor. The Lakers enjoyed having the likes of Horry, Fisher, in their clutch prime and still rather productive shooters like Shaw, Harper, and Rice. Those guys were series closers. They were a 'go-to' move in and of themselves. David never (Repeat NEVER) enjoyed the company of playing with such clutch shooters... Again not 'till Duncan attracted players like Kerr, Elie and Daren Jackson.
You act as if Rodman gave a crap about that series. He played as if he were on Houston's payroll not San Antonio's.
You exaggerate my stance by bringing players like Jordan or Bird into the mix. 1) They're not centers. 2) Ergo, they're not comparable and 3) Your facetiousness detracts from the argument. It's like trying to compare Yao Ming with Chris Paul
Last edited by Phenomanul; 03-12-2007 at 10:39 PM.
I'd take Brent Barry, even now, over Vinny at his peak. Better passer, better athlete, better shooter. Better defender too.
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