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  1. #1
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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  2. #2
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    "When the army and police are linked to the inhabitants of this area by kinship, blood and honor, how can we fight their cousins and their sons and under what pretext after the Americans pull back? . . . Democracy is coming, and there will be no excuse thereafter."-- Abu Musab al Zarqawi

    "The space of movement is starting to get smaller," Zarqawi warned. "The [U.S.] grip is starting to be tightened on the holy warriors' necks and, with the spread of soldiers and police, the future is becoming frightening."-- Abu Musab al Zarqawi

  3. #3
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Sounds like all we have to do is have the election, GTFO, and let the Sunnis and Shi'a get back to killing one another, like they have for over a thousand years, instead of us.

    These people are not sane, and no election will make them so.

  4. #4
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    The unhurried observer and inquiring onlooker will realize that Shi`ism is the looming danger and the true challenge. “They are the enemy. Beware of them. Fight them. By God, they lie.” History’s message is validated by the testimony of the current situation, which informs most clearly that Shi`ism is a religion that has nothing in common with Islam except in the way that Jews have something in common with Christians under the banner of the People of the Book. From patent polytheism, worshipping at graves, and cir ambulating shrines, to calling the Companions [of the Prophet] infidels and insulting the mothers of the believers and the elite of this [Islamic] nation, [they] arrive at distorting the Qur’an as a product of logic to defame those who know it well, in addition to speaking of the infallibility of the [Islamic] nation, the centrality of believing in them, affirming that revelation came down to them, and other forms of infidelity and manifestations of atheism with which their authorized books and original sources -- which they continue to print, distribute, and publish -- overflow. The dreamers who think that a Shi`i can forget [his] historical legacy and [his] old black hatred of the Nawasib [those who hate the Prophet’s lineage], as they fancifully call them, are like someone who calls on the Christians to renounce the idea of the crucifixion of the Messiah. Would a sensible person do this? These are a people who added to their infidelity and augmented their atheism with political cunning and a feverish effort to seize upon the crisis of governance and the balance of power in the state, whose features they are trying to draw and whose new lines they are trying to establish through their political banners and organizations in cooperation with their hidden allies the Americans.
    I think they actually hate the Shi'a more than us.

  5. #5
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    ex,

    You are right in that they hate the Shi'ites. Basically in the Sunnis (and particularly the Salafis), you have a group that is very fundamentalist, traditional Islam (i.e., all infidels must die, women are slaves and have no rights, etc.), while the Shi'ites are a little more progressive, worldly, and forward thinking (have you heard a peep out of al-Sadr, etc. during Fallujah? Nope!

    In the Sunnis you also have a minority in Iraq (approx. 20% of the population) who under Saddam had control/authority/animosity/elitist viewpoint over the Shi'ite population.

    So you're dealing with a traditionally violent and fundamentalist minority sect of Islam (Sunnis) who were previously the "majority" in Saddam's Iraq, suddenly without 1/10th the power they previously had, and staring a future government in Iraq where the Kurds and Shi'ites will have at least equal say in things (and in reality, much more power due to their relative size than the Sunnis).

    So the future is looking pretty bleak, plus you know the Shi'ites are looking forward to paying the Sunnis back for 30 years of bull under Saddam. So yeah they're gonna be scared less and acting like they are right now (basically fueling the insurgency).

    You did hit it on the head - get the elections done and get the out of there.

    I wish it were that simple, but Iran's fixing to be in play as well, with the revelations today that they are close to producing a nuke.

    So it's either going to come down to letting Israel doing the dirty work, or we'll round up some support from the EU (doubtful) or NATO (probable) and go do it ourselves.

  6. #6
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    This can be avoided if they have a secular government.

    I for one do not think all Iraqis think like Zarqawi does...he is an extremist, he is not an Iraqi....

    These people are intelligent, creative people in the majority and I think the majority of them are also peaceful, which is why it's so easy for a violent minority to sieze power.


    What they need to realize is that they all got sanctioned, they all got attacked by Iran, and they all got the kicked out of them by the USA.

    They need separation of er...Mosque and state, they cannot have a theocracy...they need freedom of religion that is protected by the law. And all that good stuff...I also think they need severe limits on their military...much like Germany and Japan...if they have no military they cannot have a civil war. They do need a police force...The regions are largely segregated so if there is no military it will be very difficult for them to have any kind of a civil war.

    Democracy can work for these people....why do you think they are emmigrating from that region of the world at such a high rate? Because they know it sucks there...and it's better in the Democratic West...they do not immigrate to Saudi Arabia or Iran...they immigrate to Europe and America.

    This can work. But they really do need to follow our model and we need to use as much influence on them as possible.

    And I've always been under the impression that the Shias are the more fundamentlist...and violent...not the Sunni's. THe Sunni's in Iraq were tyranical but that is because they were a minority ruling a majority...and the only way to do that is by tyranny. But in general I think the Sunni's are the less violent and more progressive sect...

    Pakistan is a largely Sunni muslim country and they had a female Prime Minister not too long ago.

    Saddam was not a sunni muslim as much as he was a marxist...ditto the baathist movement...it was a socialist movement...he didn't start embracing Islam until he saw how well Arafat used it for political gain.
    Last edited by whottt; 11-19-2004 at 02:56 AM.

  7. #7
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    whott, the Sunnis, particularly the Salafi sect, are responsible for among others:

    Mullah Omar
    Osama bin Laden
    Ahman Al-Zawahari
    Abu whateverthe itis al-Zarqawi
    Assad (Syrian "president")

    The Shi'ites are typically more tolerant. Look at the Shi'ite south in Iraq, even our old pal al-Sadr has chilled out. He just wanted a piece of the political action, Khomeini told him to STFU, and the whole south of Iraq is peace, love, and AQ sucks.

    The Sunnis have the most to lose in a new Iraq, and they're going down swinging, plain and simple.

  8. #8
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    You left out Arafat as a Sunni also. But again, those are extremist Sunnis, and those extremists tend to get along real well with the Shias..Zarqawi excluded of course...IMO by Shia standards those guys are moderates by Sunni standards they are radicals.....the Sunnis hate Israel, this is true...

    But the Shias are the ones who started Anti-Americanism in Islam...the "America is the great Satan" crap and they are the ones that started this Islamic state BS and want a freaking Islamic state everywhere they go..that's the whole purpose of Shia..to create an Islamic world.....all the Islamic countries we have good relationships with in the mid-east are Sunni dominated countries...and the ones that aren't really Islamic states are Sunni ruled countries..with the exception of Saudi Arabia. Who knows...maybe it's just that the Sunnis are more corrupt...Both Sunnis and Shias claim to want theocratic rule but the Sunnis do a better job of having secular governments(well corrupt monarchies is more like it)...

    Look at our best relations with the Muslim world..well with their leaders anyway...

    Egypt
    Kuwait
    Turkey
    Saudi
    Qatar
    Pakistan

    Those are all Sunni majority countries...and they are the cream of the crop(excluding Saudi)...as far as being fairly secular countries.



    The big opposition to the Saudi Royal Family, and Usama's major supporters within Saudi, are the Shias. Hizbolla is a Shia organization...The Shias are just as big a heads and they hate America more...even if they might not be producing the manical leaders. The Sunnis can be won over more or less in many cases.....we have never been able to win anything with the Shias.

    Who knows..maybe things will get better with the Shias once Iraq is free to decide it's own fate...maybe with Iran as well.

    For all their hatred of each other though...Sunni and Shia...Iran has had the PLO's back on it's anti Israel Stance from day 1...and the Palestinians are predominantely Sunni...while the Sunni lead countries like Jordan and Egypt, even Saudi Arabia.. have pretty much made peace with Israel and recognized it's right to exist.
    Last edited by whottt; 11-19-2004 at 05:41 AM.

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