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At what point in the action would you have liked to have seen the Detroit/Auburn Hills PD display a show of force with regards to officers with shields and protective vests around the perimeter of the court?
I'm glad Ron Artest is not a Spur. This is not a matter of him being a "bad" situation (ie Clippers). The man is just not sane. I hope the league throws the book at him. He's the one who set everything in motion last night, from the shove in Wallace's back to acting stupid on media row, to charging into the stands. Old school NBA players would let a mean glare and an invitation to meet up outside be their response when fans hurl insults and Buds.
As for Jack, man. I think it was the heat of the moment and he was also trying to be loyal to his teammate. Hopefully he won't get busted too hard. He does not have the track record of violence and nuttiness that Artest does and hopefully that is considered.
At what point in the action would you have liked to have seen the Detroit/Auburn Hills PD display a show of force with regards to officers with shields and protective vests around the perimeter of the court?
you know fans have gotten out of line for a long time
the nba has let fans (especially jack) to go on the court. just because of who he is. now other fans think they have right to behave as jack did or worse.
I think detroit will have more security courtside now. and I think ticket prices just went up $10 in most places next year.
Answer the question.
At what point in the action could SWAT have protected the perimeter of the court without inciting their own riot or panic?
He does not have the track record of violence and nuttiness that Artest does and hopefully that is considered.
I would agree with that had he not gone in the stands. if he was fighting with just players I would hope they keep it in mind. the nba has to come hard on him fans = money. if I think these nba players will go in stands then I do not go to game. they have to hit them hard.
Did anyone watch Jack when he went back to the lockerroom? He was holding his hands up and egging the crowd on like he was Muhammad Ali. He wasn't ducking the cokes...he was welcoming them. Jack is crazy too IMO.
Jack loved this fight...he enjoyed it...it's the only conclusion I can draw from the way he left the court...he was being a troll or acting like Terrel Owens...he knew he was playing the bad guy and he loved it.
Of course, Jax kept talking about "ridin' together".
And I'd sue Jack's ass in a heartbeat if he beat me up and I was innocent...
I'd start the lawsuit for 3 million over what he offered(and a guranteed starting spot)...and then I'd tack on an extra 1 million for sticking us with Hedo and another million for going to Indiana.
Is there an other link than the espn motion where I can see the incident? There is no chance to see it over here in germany... I think it is a very sad day for basketball...
Thanks...
http://www.shockpoint.com/video.html
80MB file, but it's the whole thing.
Something I just noticed. Just imagine if this had been a close game and fans were packed in the stands.
Notice a number of them had left making it much easier for Artest to get into the crowd.
Last edited by Johnny_Blaze_47; 11-20-2004 at 09:25 AM.
@Johnny Blaze: Thank you!
Oh my God, the testosterone bull is flying in here as bad as it was on the court last night. And men wonder why women laugh at them.Duff, STFU, I guess you are pussy enough to let some throw beer in your face. Maybe you are, but Artest did what I or any real man would have done and that is go kick the out of the perp...yadig?
...
but most men would go after the s..it is in our makeup...we will not take from anyone...nuffsaid.
If this is true,then why didn't Artest go after Wallace. Wallace's shove to the throat was obviously more threatening than a plastic cup with liquid and ice. NBA players like Artest and Jack try to be hard, but for the most part they are pampered millionaires. They pussed out by going after fans half their size.Most these athletes come from backgrounds where you have to stand up for yourself, where being shown as a punk is something that can never be lived down
Pistons-Pacers fight on court leads to ugly brawl in stands
By LARRY LAGE, AP Sports Writer
November 20, 2004
AUBURN HILLS, Mich. (AP) -- Players and fans exchanged punches in the stands near the end of a Pacers-Pistons game in one of the worst brawls in NBA history. The mayhem left several people injured and prompted a police investigation.
Indiana's Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson charged into the crowd and fought with fans in the final minute of Friday night's game, forcing an early end to the Pacers' 97-82 victory.
``I felt like I was fighting for my life out there,'' Pacers coach Rick Carlisle said. ``I'm sorry the game had to end this way.''
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Officials stopped the game with 45.9 seconds remaining after pushing and shoving between the teams spilled into the stands once fans started throwing things at the players near the scorer's table.
About three hours following the startling finish, Auburn Hills police walked out of a television trailer with videotapes gathered from media outlets. Officers interviewed witnesses at the arena in suburban Detroit and planned to talk to the players involved.
[b]``We'll put it all together, take it to the Oakland County Prosecutors Office and have them review it and they'll decide if there are any charges,'' Auburn Hills Deputy Chief Jim Mynsberge said. ``I hope we can do it before Thanksgiving.''[b]
One of the half-dozen people treated for injuries at The Palace was taken to a hospital by ambulance and another sought treatment, police said.
``At this time, we don't have any indication of major injuries, Mynsberge said.
Detroit's Larry Brown, who started coaching in 1972 after his playing career ended, said it was the ugliest thing he had seen as a coach or player.
Joe Dumars, the Pistons' president of basketball operations, added: ``There's no place in the game for what went on with this incident. It was just an ugly scene.''
After several minutes of players fighting with fans in the stands, a chair, beer, ice and popcorn were thrown at the Pacers as they made their way to the locker room.
The melee started when Detroit's Ben Wallace went in for a layup and was fouled hard by Artest from behind, and escalated when Artest stormed into the stands after being hit by a full cup. After being fouled, Wallace wheeled around and pushed Artest in the face. The benches emptied and punches were thrown.
As the players continued shoving each other near center court and coaches tried to restore order, Artest sprawled out on his back on the scorer's table, looking relaxed.
Just when it appeared tempers died down, Artest was struck by a cup thrown from the stands and jumped up and charged into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats.
``He was on top of me, pummeling me,'' fan Mike Ryan of Clarkston said. ``He asked me, `Did you do it? I said, `No, man. No!'''
Jackson joined Artest in the melee and threw punches at fans, who punched back at them.
Security personnel and ushers tried to break it up. Former Pistons player Rick Mahorn, who was seated courtside as a Detroit radio analyst, tried to stop the brawl in the stands. Detroit's Rasheed Wallace and Indiana's David Harrison were also in or near the stands trying to break up the fights.
Later, a man in a Pistons jersey approached Artest on the court, shouting at him. Artest punched him in the face, knocking him to the floor. Teammate Jermaine O'Neal stepped in and punched another man who joined the scrum.
``The NBA is withholding comment until it can review the incident,'' NBA spokesman Tim Frank said.
Players from both teams left the arena without comment.
Quentin Richardson of the Phoenix Suns watched the brawl on TV.
``I have never seen a fight like that in a game since I was in high school,'' he said. ``Man, there are going to be some lawsuits. You don't think some of those fans aren't going to want some NBA money?''
Police prevented reporters from crossing the loading dock to get to Indiana's locker room or the area where the Pacers' bus was located.
``I'm just embarrassed for our league and disappointed for our young people to see that,'' Brown said.
Artest has been involved in some bizarre situations and has been suspended frequently, but his latest antics topped them all.
Earlier this month, he was benched for two games for asking Carlisle for time off because of a busy schedule that included promoting a soon-to-be released rap album.
Artest also destroyed TV monitors at Madison Square Garden two years ago and missed the team flight to Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals at Detroit last season.
Before the game was stopped, Artest had quite a game and the Pacers were dominating the defending NBA champions in their first meeting since the Eastern Conference finals.
Artest scored 17 of his 24 points in the first quarter and the Pacers led by 20 in the second. Detroit used a 9-0 outburst early in the fourth quarter to close within 82-77, but couldn't get closer.
Indiana's next game is Saturday night at home against Orlando, and Detroit hosts Charlotte on Sunday.
I've just read the whole thread and saw the fight on tv, and I know I'm going to regret this but the post I agree most is Sequ's:
Sometimes you have to defend yourself or your family, sometimes you even have to stand up to someone on principles - but none of this applies to what happened yesterday.
It almost makes me forget how much his anti-Rasho comments annoy me.
almost.....
this thread was too long to pour through everything, but no one posted this to my knowledge...i think that ron artest shouldnt have been laying on the scorers table the way he was to begin with. in my opinion, the manner in which he was lying there is almost like taunting. he could have easily just walked back to the bench and took a seat to cool down, but stretching out on the scorers table in a hostile arena with your hands behind your head and legs/knees spead apart looks like you are just asking for it. the fan was wrong to throw anything, but it seems to me artest set himself up for something like that to happen. ben wallace also should not have chased down artest after the foul, if he would have just gotten his shove in and stayed where he was, that would be excusable. fans are to blame, but there is no excuse for charging into the stands because you got wet from a beer! you have 45 seconds until a shower anyways. ridiculous.
I agree completely. He wasn't getting out of harm's way. He was trying to agrivate the situation further.
"i think ron artest shouldnt have been laying on the scorers table"
"think" ?? Carlisle, or other IND staff, or the IND players should have gotten him off that table within seconds.
Artest's long history of flagrant fouls, other behavior, plus this riot should ban him for life from NBA, plus JO and SJ for the rest of the season (similar to Spree's strangle-my-coach suspension).
Artest:
Wrong for late foul that was uncalled for.
Wrong for laying on scorers' table.
Wrong for going into the stands.
Wrong for severely assaulting any fan(s).
SJax:
Wrong for being a further instigator on the court during the initial scuffle.
Wrong for going into the stands.
Wrong for severely assaulting any fan(s).
J Oneal:
Wrong for severely assaulting any fan(s).
Ben Wallace:
Wrong for shoving Artest.
Wrong for being a further instigator on the court during the initial scuffle.
Pistons:
Wrong for players leaving the bench during a fight.
Pacers:
Wrong for players leaving the bench during a fight.
Wrong for not leaving the court in a timely manner once the game was called.
Detroit Fans:
Wrong for throwing various objects.
Wrong for severely assaulting any player(s).
Is there anything else?
There's a rumor that that big guy with the NBA credential around his neck who beat up Fred Jones in the stands was Ben Wallace's brother.
Did anyone else hear this?
Haven't heard that one, Kori, but I'm sure this is the last game he gets credentials for, whoever he is.
This probably won't be anything that hasn't been said already but I feel like speaking on this. For starters I think people are putting too much on Ben Wallace. Yes, he overeacted but he didn't do anything that hasn't been done a dozen times over by plenty of guys in the league. He deserves a suspension but anything more than 5 games is going to just be the league trying to look like they're really cracking down, even if it is on the wrong guy.
I think Artest hopping up on the scorers table was a little inflamatory but the Pacers staff really should have been the ones to get him out of there. I'm not going to complain about him being too calm when he just as easily could have started fight that every last player and coach would have gotten caught in. If I were handing out the suspensions on him I'd sit his ass out for the rest of 2004 and make him get some counseling. He had no business going in the stands, especially when he went after the wrong man. I totally give him a free pass on beating the fan on the court, though. Just as I have no sympathy for the players who got hit for going in the stands I feel no sympathy for the idiot who went on the floor to get at Artest. , Artest was trying to get out of there at that point. In reality, he's done so much already that Stern is going to have to throw about five or six books at him. I wouldn't be surprised to see him gone for the season.
In reality the guys who should be handed the stiffest penalties are Jax and JO. Jackson was looking for a fight when the fur first started flying, practically daring anyone in blue and white for a brawl. If he and Tinsley (who should probably catch some time off for his attempt at a dust pan javelin) hadn't been trying to start the pistons probably could have gotten Big Ben off the court a lot quicker before things hit critical mass. And then Jax runs PAST Artest to go hit someone in the stands, after zero provocation. He was with Artest every step of the way and didn't make any attempt to stop him. If he wants to "ride together" with Artest it should be a ride in a cop car after the he pulled. And the sucker punch O'Neal threw was one of the sickest things I've ever seen. I know I said that I was cool with Artest hitting the moron for coming on the floor but JO hit a guy who was just getting up from the floor with a running haymaker. No provocation, just a pure thugariffic assault. And then he started screaming and trying to get to anyone who so much as looked at him funny when they ushered him towards the tunnel. Justice = Jackson out for the season + 20 games for O'Neal and a crazy fine.
And those in' fans. Thankfully I think ESPN had enough cameras there that it should be easy enough to track down the people who were the instigators in the stands. I don't know if they should be prosecuted, but for sure they need to never step foot in the Palace again. Throw in the mandatory suspensions for leaving benches and all of the guys who hit the stands (even if they were just trying to stop things) and it adds up to both of these teams losing a lot of big names for a long time. I know its hard to quantify the impact it will have on the team, but it could result in as many as 30 losses for the Pacers and 15-20 for the Pistons.
And another thing, after things like this happens there's always a lot of moaning about how far things have sunk, but no one in the national media will EVER point at the Spurs organization and say, "See, there are good guys left. This was just a bad incident." Instead of properly hanging the blame on thugs like Artest and pointing at the instances of decent human beings in the league, players, journalists, and people in the league will jump to his defense, because they feel like they need to protect the league and the game of basketball.
I wonder if this is the longest basketball related thread we've had.
A fair punishment should be laid down on the Pistons.
A few weeks ago, a soccer team in Europe (AS Roma, I believe) was punished by UEFA when a fan threw an object at the field that connected and bloodied the referee. The punishment was that for the next several Champions League games, it was a closed stadium home game (no fans, only coaches, security, staff, and players). This hit AS Roma big time in the pocket.
The NBA should lay down a similar punishment against the Pistons, to punish their fans and the team. Closed stadium games for the next 5 home games or so.
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