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  1. #226
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RandomGuy

    This is something of a red herring on your part. AGW theory says that a very significant portion of CURRENT warming trends is due to output of greenhouse gasses from the industrial revolution and onwards. This in no way contradicts AGW theory about current warming trends does it?
    Can you show me the empirical evidence, or do you just have coincidental cause and effect graphs?
    Do I need empiracal evidence to re-state what a theory says?

    My statement simply pointed out that showing how warming/cooling trends in the pre-industrial era are overwhelmingly due to solar radiation is missing the point of AGM theory entirely, if not actively misleading.

    No scientist who advocates AGM theory, to my knowledge, says that 100% of current warming trends is due solely to greenhouse gas emissions. If you can find a link to a scientific paper that contradicts this, feel free to post it.

    Showing that, in the past, warming trends have been due to solar radiation, doesn't contradict the theory that we are causing warming due to greenhouse gasses does it?

    Tell me why, WC. Show me your intellectual honesty.

  2. #227
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    It seems to be to be a pretty pertinent bit.

    The same graphs you show in support shows the amount of fossil fuels burned in the last 20-50 years is greater than the entire 150 before it.

    By your own admission, using one of your links here:



    Shows that we are burning roughly 4 times the amount of carbon now that we were in 1950.


    If carbon remains in the atmosphere for 100+ years that means that we will put, if current levels simply remain the same, more carbon into the atmosphere in the next 10 years than in the entire period 1850-1950. A good chunk of this is CO2, which you have acknowledged as having caused around 10% of recent warming trends.

    If we do nothing, and continue to dump CO2 into the atmosphere at a rate far higher than it is absorbed, then is it at least plausible that we will see higher temperatures?
    You are thinking in a linear fashion. It's not. The greater the imbalance from where the equilibrium should be between the atmosphere and sinks, the greater the transfer. I assume it's an exponential form, like a capacitor discharge. All I know about science tells me it is expoential, but I may be wrong. I do know absolutely that it's far from linear. Here is an example of a pure exponential decay where 100 years leaves 0.67% of the amount:



    Please note that at 5 years 22.2% is removed. Almost 40% at 10 years and less than 25% remains between 25 to 30 years.

    I incorrectly called the warming of CO2 logarithmic. In reality, the transmission through the atmosphere is exponential. The warming is from what is not transmitted to space. The true graph is the shape of the exponential decay flipped upside-down.

    I was waiting for someone to catch me on that mistake… Oh well…

  3. #228
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    CO2 by itself won't do a heckuva lot, but if we warm up large areas of the planet just enough, we have the potential for massive methane releases.

    ---

    If we, though our CO2 emissions warm the globe just a bit more than natural, and trigger massive methane releases, then what happens WC?
    This is true to a point, except accepted chemistry and physics tells us we are warming more by other means than CO2. There are those who claim the increase of 0.6 C to 0.8 C (depending on who you believe) is only about 5% due to increases in CO2. That means about 0.03 C to 0.04 C if they are correct. I believe CO2 is more than that, but no where near the alarmists claim. Anyone who actually studies the evidence of solar, soot, and CO2 will tell you that CO2 is minor compared to the other two. Solar changes, no doubt, account for more than half of what we believe we have warmed in since the 1700’s.

    Many of us believe we have seen massive methane releases. Methane trapped under the sea floor, then as the tides are just right and the weight of the ocean subsides a bit, trillions or billions of square meters are released from under the sea floor as temperature and pressure allows liquefied methane to become a gas form. This explains the sudden loss of ships and planes in the Bermuda Triangle. Such an underwater event was actually recorded at least once. It's very dramatic! Such a thing could be caused by CO2 increases if CO2 contributed more to warming than it does. However, the majority of these instances in the Bermuda Triangle coincide with known solar warming trends.

    I can easikly claim any methane released from the arctic melt is from soot coming from Asia rather than melting from COP2 heat!

    The proof is in! Soot is melting the Arctic!

  4. #229
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Can I trust this publication to give me objective, non-politicized science WC?

    What did the "peer review" consist of for this article?
    Why not? Just because it originates from non Climatological professions doesn't mean the people starting it don't understand the sciences involve. The medical profession understand fluid-gas relationships rather well, as they are always present in our blood.

    Peer Review? Overly abused these days. If you don't understand what you read yourself, don't trust the material. Too many agendas out there.

  5. #230
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    Do I need empiracal evidence to re-state what a theory says?
    Considering its an untested theory, it would be nice.

    My statement simply pointed out that showing how warming/cooling trends in the pre-industrial era are overwhelmingly due to solar radiation is missing the point of AGM theory entirely, if not actively misleading.
    Past warming by the sun has been far more than today. What's to say the current warming isn't from the sun?

    No scientist who advocates AGM theory, to my knowledge, says that 100% of current warming trends is due solely to greenhouse gas emissions. If you can find a link to a scientific paper that contradicts this, feel free to post it.
    According to the IPCC, depending on how you interpret their data, all is caused by increased CO2:



    Everything else cancels out!

    Showing that, in the past, warming trends have been due to solar radiation, doesn't contradict the theory that we are causing warming due to greenhouse gasses does it?
    No, but when you remove the easily understood warming by solar and soot, little remains that can be claimed to be by CO2. Far less than what they claim!

    Tell me why, WC. Show me your intellectual honesty.
    I have. I'm sorry you don't understand all I have explained.

  6. #231
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    more than 31,000 who signed the Oregon Pe ion? Go ahead. Throw some names out. There are still thousands of respected scientists that know the material who disagree.


    The evidence to the contrary is silenced. The media doesn’t carry their words and several who have spoken out have been removed from their jobs as unqualified, because they don’t believe.
    WTC7 - This is an Orange
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1

    Only a lunatic would believe an office fire can make a steel building fall down in a controlled demolition.

    Wake Up!!
    The only thing more underreported than Tim Duncan, is Ron Paul and WTC 7.

    Wake Up!!!
    some can't handle the truth. That even includes many of the Truthers who don't look at both sides of the evidence.

    Debating 9/11 is worse than arguing politics. Its more like arguing religion. Most are irrational or ignorant, or both.

    Most of the info provided by 9/11 Truthers is non-conclusive filler. There is only a small amount of evidence which proves it was an inside job.
    Really? Most scientists who have studied the issue say the explosions in WTC 1 threw out the chunks.

    The Architects and Engneers for 9/11 Truth have already determined that WTC 7 was a controlled demolition. The evidence proved it. They proved WTC 7 did not fall from fire or flying debris.

    Since you are neither an architect or engineer, you are not qualified on this topic. I will take the rational road and defer to the findings of 300 experts.

    I am also an expert. I am Galileo Galilei, the founder of science, and I have determined that WTC 7 was a controlled demolition as well. You should listen to experts and keep your crazy (and dangerous) ideas to yourself.
    Blah, as with any psy-op there is a lot of mis - and disinformation that gets reported in the press, and then you get loonies like infowars.com and Alex Jones that make the whole truth movement look crazy...but you can't keep the truth down forever...or can you?......Nah..someday someone will dig up John Connelly and expose the JFK assassination too...

    Architects and Engineers for 9-11 truth

    Of course, one can browse through the lists of the self-reported qualifications of those 31,000 scientists who have signed the Global Warming Pe ion that WC linked.

    Among them:
    IV) Food Science (74)



    Does this logically imply that the denier claims of valid science supporting their side of the debate? No.

    Does this mean that a good majority of the people who have "signed" the pe ion don't have relevant qualifications? No. The a good chunk of them tend to be either chemists or something similar.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 12-29-2008 at 01:54 PM. Reason: hit post button before completing post.

  7. #232
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    The attraction to Morgan is thusly - a lot of the language from the Obama campaign, with regards to NASA, has been about education. Mrs. Morgan is a former teacher, and also an astronaut - thus, in essence, she is, to a degree, the quick and easy pick. I don't know of any administrative experience she has had, and so therefore would worry about the direction of NASA, but from that point of view (education background, astronaut) she seems a plausible pick.s for Hansen - again, from a plausible perspective - whether you, or Rand, agree that global warming is an issue or not, doesn't matter - Senator Obama does, and for a lot of liberals, when the comments about global warming were removed from NASA's charter, and add to the fact that Hansen has become something of an icon in the minds of a lot of people who are concerned about Global Warming - again, the attraction would be there.m

  8. #233
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    more than 31,000 who signed the Oregon Pe ion? Go ahead. Throw some names out. There are still thousands of respected scientists that know the material who disagree.


    The evidence to the contrary is silenced. The media doesn’t carry their words and several who have spoken out have been removed from their jobs as unqualified, because they don’t believe.
    WTC7 - This is an Orange
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1

    Only a lunatic would believe an office fire can make a steel building fall down in a controlled demolition.

    Wake Up!!
    The only thing more underreported than Tim Duncan, is Ron Paul and WTC 7.

    Wake Up!!!
    the debunkers resemble a religion in their fanatical opposition to the idea that a powerful person in the government might order someone killed for political gain.

    Unless someone is convicted of murder, it didn't happen.

    Ah yes, the Global Warming Pe ion Project.
    A list of signers shows the components of that 31,000
    http://www.pe ionproject.org/gwdat...f_Signers.html

    Like…

    IV) Food Science (74)
    II) Electrical Engineering (2,075)

    Because Food Science and Electrical Engineering are disciplines intimately involved in evaluating climate data, right?

    The requirements to get on this list of pe ioners?
    A printer, a stamped envelope, and legible handwriting.
    Sounds to me to be eerily similar to the Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth.

    They have a pe ion too.

  9. #234
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    That was a tad unfair. I would give the Global Warming Pe ion project a bit more credibility than the twoofers any day.

    But, it does not show me an overwhelming consensus of scientists. Nor does it provide a large, formal organization that disbelieves the AGW theory.

  10. #235
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    If we do nothing, and continue to dump CO2 into the atmosphere at a rate far higher than it is absorbed, then is it at least plausible that we will see higher temperatures?
    You are thinking in a linear fashion. It's not. The greater the imbalance from where the equilibrium should be between the atmosphere and sinks, the greater the transfer. I assume it's an exponential form, like a capacitor discharge. All I know about science tells me it is expoential, but I may be wrong.
    That isn't a yes or no answer.

    Either it is plausible or not.

    If we do nothing, and continue to dump CO2 into the atmosphere at a rate far higher than it is absorbed, then is it at least plausible that we will see higher temperatures?

    You have answered this question "yes" from what I understand, so let's go from there, I won't belabor the point.

    If we dump a lot more CO2 into the air at a rate far faster than it is absorbed, exponential abasorption or not, will that mean a greater impact on temperatures?

    I expect you to dodge this question with either a non-answer, or another question. That would not be intellectually honest. Yes or no please, it is a fair question.

  11. #236
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Please note that at 5 years 22.2% is removed. Almost 40% at 10 years and less than 25% remains between 25 to 30 years.

    I incorrectly called the warming of CO2 logarithmic. In reality, the transmission through the atmosphere is exponential. The warming is from what is not transmitted to space. The true graph is the shape of the exponential decay flipped upside-down.

    I was waiting for someone to catch me on that mistake… Oh well…
    By the by, the term for this is "half life", in that it is very similar to radioactive decay. That is the term that the climate scientists use to describe the persistance of greenhouse gasses.

    I also noticed that, for all your reading on the subject, you couldn't answer the question of how persistant CO2 is.

    Your graph implies that the half-life of CO2 is (to my eye) about 10 years. The research I have read says it is more like a hundred or so, if not much longer.

    Since this is your baliwhack, you find something about this on a website you trust and get back to me with a more firm answer as to the "half-life" of atmospheric CO2. Surely there is something in your denier peer-reviewed science about this.

  12. #237
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    RRG, some are saying we will be in a cooling period in
    less than a decade. Do we cover that risk factor also. How
    bout we let old Mother Nature take it's course and realize
    mankind is just that mankind. We can change little and
    only on a temporary basis.
    Wrong man can clearly destroy his environment which can effect weather changes.

  13. #238
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    According to the IPCC, depending on how you interpret their data, all is caused by increased CO2:



    Everything else cancels out!
    Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures
    since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the
    observed increase in anthropogenic GHG concentrations.8
    This is an advance since the TAR’s conclusion that “most
    of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to
    have been due to the increase in GHG concentrations” (Figure
    2.5). {WGI 9.4, SPM}
    The atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4
    in 2005 exceed by far the natural range over the last 650,000
    years.
    They say most, not all.

  14. #239
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Here is a good example of how to make a case with graphs.

    Let's look at the "solar irradiance" line and pair that with the "average global temperatures line".

    They both go up at about the same slope, and it seems a reasonable conclusion to say, "hey it's all about the sunlight".

    Take a closer look at the scale of the "solar irradiance" measurements.

    They vary from 1368 Watts per square meter, to 1372 Watts per square meter.

    Over the last 50 years it has varied from 1370 to 1371. A total difference of 0.073%

    7 hundredths of one percent variation.

    Surely this causes some of the increased temperatures, and no one, not even the IPCC disputes this, as their bar graph shows.

    WC and the deniers assert that the majority of temperature increases observed in this period of time is from swings of solar irradiance of less than 7 hundredths of one percent.

    The IPCC says it is likely that the majority of that increase is from human activity, namely greenhouse gas emissions.

    Also look at the level of emissions line. That is the level of emissions, NOT the ac ulated change in CO2 concentrations, which would seem to be a tad more relevant.

    Interesting what they omitted and the way the presented their data, isn't it?

  15. #240
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Ah yes, the Global Warming Pe ion Project.
    A list of signers shows the components of that 31,000
    http://www.pe ionproject.org/gwdat...f_Signers.html

    Like…

    IV) Food Science (74)
    II) Electrical Engineering (2,075)

    Because Food Science and Electrical Engineering are disciplines intimately involved in evaluating climate data, right?

    The requirements to get on this list of pe ioners?
    A printer, a stamped envelope, and legible handwriting.
    Sounds to me to be eerily similar to the Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth.

    They have a pe ion too.


    And you are an accountant, correct? And yet, you have an opinion.

  16. #241
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Since this is your baliwhack, you find something about this on a website you trust and get back to me with a more firm answer as to the "half-life" of atmospheric CO2. Surely there is something in your denier peer-reviewed science about this.
    Well here we go.

    I went back and read this bit and got what the deniers think:

    Beginning with the 7 to 10-year half-time of CO2 in the atmosphere estimated by Revelle and Seuss (69), there were 36 estimates of the atmospheric CO2 half-time based upon experimental measurements published between 1957 and 1992.

    Many of these estimates are from the decrease in atmospheric carbon 14 after cessation of atmospheric nuclear weapons testing, which provides a reliable half-time. There is no experimental evidence to support computer model estimates (73) of a CO2 atmospheric "lifetime" of 300 years or more.
    The Revelle and Seuss article quoted was from 1957, by the way.

    Why do they stop their estimates at 1992? Because the summary they quoted was from a 1998 study of those estimates from 1957 to 1992.

    Here also, by the way, is the graph from the denier website:



    This shows a 22% jump in concentrations since 1950, for what that is worth.

  17. #242
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    And you are an accountant, correct? And yet, you have an opinion.
    My opinion is about whose argument should carry more weight, not about how much CO2 causes warming.

    Small difference.

  18. #243
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Also along the lines of how long CO2 stays in the atmosphere, when the denier "peer reviewed" science article says there "There is no experimental evidence to support computer model estimates (73) of a CO2 atmospheric "lifetime" of 300 years or more."

    73. Archer, D. (2005) J. Geophysical Res. 110, 2004JC002625.

    Let's see how the deniers are cherry picking, shall we?

    Here is what that same "Archer, D." is saying in 2008, and not rely on the denier article to tell me what he says/thinks.

    "The climatic impacts of releasing fossil fuel CO2 to the atmosphere will last longer than Stonehenge, longer than time capsules, longer than nuclear waste, far longer than the age of human civilization so far."

    David Archer
    Instead of pinning an absolute value on the atmospheric lifetime of CO2, the 2007 report describes its gradual dissipation over time, saying, "About 50% of a CO2 increase will be removed from the atmosphere within 30 years, and a further 30% will be removed within a few centuries. The remaining 20% may stay in the atmosphere for many thousands of years." But if ulative emissions are high, the portion remaining in the atmosphere could be higher than this, models suggest.
    Carbon is forever (article at nature.com)

    Mr. Archer does think that the lifetime of CO2 in the atmosphere is 300+ years, but is quite possibly much longer than earlier research suggests.

    Oopsies.

  19. #244
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    Further, to be 100% intellectually honest, to show WC how it's done:

    We don't eliminate that risk. We could spend all the money switching over, and still face the worst effects of that warming.
    Pretty good I must say. I've asked that question several times of "believers" and you're the first to give a pretty honest answer. I'll give you an A- on intellectual honesty.

    I have to take a few points off for understatement though. If the catastrophic global warming predictions are correct it simply isn't possible to "switch over" fast enough to avoid the doomsday scenario. In which case the only cure for global warming will be global warming.

    Unless the global warming movement suddenly embraces nuclear energy which is very unlikely.
    Last edited by SnakeBoy; 12-30-2008 at 01:40 AM.

  20. #245
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    When is this all suppose occur. Not in my lifetime or yours
    or your kids lifetime.
    2050 according to the more conservative alarmists.

    Couple of decades according to others. Some have been saying as little as two decades for a decade now. They don't seem to understand subtraction very well.

    Global Warming
    The World in 2050
    by Robin McKie and Priscilla Morris

    It is the year 2050, and April blizzards have gripped southern England for the third successive year while violent storms batter the North Sea coast. The Gulf Stream, whose warming waters once heated our shores, has long since disappeared, destroyed by a deluge pouring south from the melting Arctic ice cap.
    In the United States, much of Alaska has turned into a quagmire as permafrost and glaciers disintegrate. In Colorado, chair lift pylons stand rusting in the warm drizzle, reminders that the nation once supported a billion-dollar ski industry, while the remnants of Florida are declared America's second island state.

    Africa is faring badly. Its coastline from Cairo to Lagos is completely flooded and many of the major cities have been abandoned. Tens of millions of people have been forced to flee and are struggling to survive in a parched, waterless interior.

    In Asia there is a similar, terrifying picture. Bangladesh is almost totally inundated and the East Indies have been reduced to a few scrappy islands. Tens of millions stand on the brink of death.

    It is a startling scenario worthy of a science fiction disaster film. And it would be easy to dismiss, were it not for the uncomfortable fact that these visions are the result of rigorous scientific analysis by some of the world's most distinguished climatologists.

    As the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) points out in its recent Climate Change 2001 report, global warming is likely to trigger a cascade of unpleasant effects: elderly people will suffer and die in smoggy, polluted cities; crops will fail; and wildlife and livestock will perish on a scorched and miserable planet. That report was the combined work of several thousand of the world's leading meteorological experts, scientists whose views George Bush has now dismissed as 'questionable' and whose work in creating the Kyoto protocol has been utterly undone.

    The US decision to pull out of the international accord on climate change has caused predictable international alarm, though it is important to note it will have no direct effect on levels of carbon dioxide now circulating in the atmosphere. Kyoto merely pledged developed countries to restrict their industrial output. 'It was an excellent first step towards reversing climate change,' according to Southampton University's Professor Nigel Arnell. Kyoto was, in effect, a statement of intent. The industrial nations which had, after all, initiated the problem of global warming, would show their commitment by making the first crucial, self-sacrificing moves. Then the Third World could be drawn in, and the first decreases in carbon-dioxide emissions agreed over the next few years. 'Bush has now made the attainment of these next crucial steps much more difficult,' says Arnell. In fact, most experts believe he has made them impossible. If the West won't act, why should the rest of the world? If no action is taken, the consequences are likely to be calamitous. Before the industrial revolution, the atmosphere was made up of 250 parts per million of carbon dioxide. Now that figure has reached 366 and is already producing meteorological effects: a steady increase in devastating storms across Britain, rising sea levels, and dwindling glaciers and ice-caps. And that is just the start. Carbon dioxide levels will inevitably reach 450, even if governments closed every factory tomorrow. 'Plants absorb carbon dioxide and when they die they release that gas,' says Dr David Griggs of the IPCC's science working group. 'Similarly, the oceans absorb and release carbon dioxide.' These carbon dioxide stores mean that we could not stop atmospheric levels rising for future decades, no matter what we did. 'The climate is changing and will continue to change, regardless of what George Bush says,' comments Dr Mike Hulme of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change in Norwich.

    In any case, closing down factories is not on the cards. With the nation responsible for a quarter of all global carbon dioxide emissions refusing to limit its output by the merest fraction, levels will inevitably reach 550 parts per million - double their pre-industrial revolution figure - by about 2050. By then the world's temperature will have increased by 1.4 degrees Centigrade, triggering the mayhem outlined in the IPCC report. 'It is very difficult to make hard predictions,' adds Griggs. 'All we can say is that the future is going to be very uncertain, highly variable.' Britain provides an excellent example of the problem. We may swelter - or, if icy Arctic waters divert the Gulf Stream, we may shiver. Either way, the consequences will mean millions of homes will be refused insurance, native wildlife will perish and great chunks of coastline will be inundated.

    And, say meteorologists, it now looks as if there is nothing we can do about it.

    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0401-01.htm
    Last edited by SnakeBoy; 12-30-2008 at 01:41 AM.

  21. #246
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    If the catastrophic global warming predictions are correct it simply isn't possible to "switch over" fast enough to avoid the doomsday scenario.
    That is still not quite certain. What is more certain is that the longer we wait the less likely we will be able to do something about it, and the more expensive it will be.

    Unless the global warming movement suddenly embraces nuclear energy which is very unlikely.
    Please don't tell me you are one of the "nuclear is the only answer to fossil fuels" crowd.

    Nuclear has its share of drawbacks that outweigh it benefits enough to the point where it isn't really an economically viable option.

  22. #247
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    2050 according to the more conservative alarmists.

    Couple of decades according to others. Some have been saying as little as two decades for a decade now. They don't seem to understand subtraction very well.
    That is one of the big problems in predicting exactly what will happen.

    The scenario you described in the quoted article is one in which the ocean currents that currently conduct and circulate heat suddenly break down as they have in the past, such as what is speculated to have occurred before the changes that made the Earth into an iceball about 600-800 million years ago.

    The ultimate, long-term effects are unknown, but the more we disrupt the equilibrium, the more varied the possible end results will be.

  23. #248
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Pretty good I must say. I've asked that question several times of "believers" and you're the first to give a pretty honest answer. I'll give you an A- on intellectual honesty.

    I have to take a few points off for understatement though. If the catastrophic global warming predictions are correct it simply isn't possible to "switch over" fast enough to avoid the doomsday scenario. In which case the only cure for global warming will be global warming.

    Unless the global warming movement suddenly embraces nuclear energy which is very unlikely.
    By the way, feel free to test WC's intellectual honesty. Perhaps he will respond to you.

    I have had no luck in getting straight, honest answers from him.

  24. #249
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    That is one of the big problems in predicting exactly what will happen.

    The scenario you described in the quoted article is one in which the ocean currents that currently conduct and circulate heat suddenly break down as they have in the past, such as what is speculated to have occurred before the changes that made the Earth into an iceball about 600-800 million years ago.

    The ultimate, long-term effects are unknown, but the more we disrupt the equilibrium, the more varied the possible end results will be.


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