PTR: Mills VS Joseph Debate

[BillMc]

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/...ph-patty-mills

Michael Erler and Jesus Gomez will be discussing the status of the Spurs' upcoming free agents. Cory Joseph is the topic of this conversation and things get heated. Enjoy!

Jesus Gomez
I know we are going to disagree a lot in this one, so let's start with something simple. Hypothetical: forget about contracts. Do you want Mills or Joseph as the Spurs' backup point guard for the next three years?

Michael Erler
Joseph.

Jesus Gomez
Not even a moment of hesitation.

Michael Erler
I get why fans would prefer Mills. But for reasonable analysts who actually study the numbers and leave the emotion out of it, it genuinely mystifies me that it's even a question. One guy is literally better at EVERYTHING than the other guy, except for shooting threes. That is literally the only skill Mills has over him, and even that's not by as big of a margin as people make it out to be.
Joseph did shoot a better percentage than him from downtown last year, but because Mills had a hot final week, that's all anybody remembers.
Plus, Joseph has shown a linear improvement in every facet of his game from year to year, and he's three years younger. There is no reason to think he won't keep improving. He's the second-best or best mid-range shooter on the team, depending on how you feel about Leonard. He made 45.3 percent of his mid-range jumpers last year.
But the killer stat for me, the one that sells me on him, is 39.2 percent of his field goal attempts came at the rim. That's better than any Spur except for Splitter, Baynes and Ayres.
He knows how to penetrate, how to get to the rim and finish. He draws fouls at twice the rate of Mills. He's a better playmaker and a better defender.
And Mills needs another point guard on the floor to even be able to play. Joseph does not.
So in a way, it's not even fair to compare them. One is a point guard. One is a shooting guard.

Jesus Gomez
Here's the thing: three-point shooting is really, really important. Much more important than mid-range shooting or rebounding from your point guard.

Michael Erler
I'm just asking... would you feel the way you do about Mills if the seven games he had against the Clippers came in the middle of January and his playoff stats were more in line with his regular season numbers?
Or are you suffering from recency bias and championship hero bias?

Jesus Gomez
Almost like the opposite of recency bias. I'm thinking about his play from last season. Because he was terrific then. Let's not forget he was out until December with injury this year.

Michael Erler
I just don't feel like Mills' long-term success is sustainable. He takes very bad shots early in the shot clock. Gary Neal shots. He's Neal with better PR, basically.

Jesus Gomez
Mills can dribble and pressure other guards. If anything, he's a better Neal.

Michael Erler
He can dribble, but he cannot penetrate. How many times did we see him just dribble aimlessly against some backup point guard, completely unable to cross him up, and have to settle for either a 28-footer at the buzzer or a pass to someone else for a 28-footer at the buzzer?

Jesus Gomez
You don't want him driving, you want him shooting.

Michael Erler
He needs daylight to shoot. He cannot create it for himself.

Jesus Gomez
His assisted field goal numbers prove you wrong.
Anyway, I have this theory. Mills is Bonner, Joseph is every other big man without a three-pointer the Spurs have used since Bonner joined the team.

Everyone always complained that all Bonner could do was shoot threes while Insert Other Big was a better rebounder and marginally better defender. Yet up until last season, the team was always better with Bonner on the court, provided his minutes were reasonable. That's how important his shooting was.

Michael Erler
What Mills and Bonner have in common is Manu made both, more or less. I have my doubts either can succeed without him.
If Ginobili was playing three more years, I'd prefer Mills. With him retiring or at most playing one last season at like 18 minutes for 65 games, give me Joseph.

Jesus Gomez
Here's where I stand: Mills has one skill that is super important. Joseph is good at many things that are less important. If you want to argue Joseph is the better player, I might agree with you. But I think even without Manu I'd rather have a shooter like Mills on the roster than a guy like Joseph. You can get someone who does what Cory does as your third PG for cheap. A shooter like Mills is more rare.

Michael Erler
He's a 6'0 shooting guard, Jesus. What's even more rare than a guy who makes threes are shooting guards who can play the point, which is what you need for Mills to work.

Jesus Gomez
He's a good 6'0 shooting guard. And if Kawhi ever becomes the dominant force he's suppose to become, you want guys who can play off the ball.

Michael Erler
And when Leonard is on the bench, I guess you hand the offense to Kyle Anderson?

Jesus Gomez
Sure, if he's good enough. Or any other shot creator you can get.

Michael Erler
I think Joseph has more of a future, but I could be wrong. Maybe he'll always be a good third point guard.
I just think he brings more to the table than Mills does. Pop always goes on and on about the things he does that don't show up in the box score, and then in money time he benches him and plays Mills.

Jesus Gomez
BECAUSE YOU WANT MILLS IN THERE WHEN IT COUNTS, NOT HUSTLE GUY WITH NO SHOT!

Michael Erler
The guy who shot 45.3 from midrange and a better percentage from downtown than Mills has no shot. He shot above 50 percent last year. Not too many guards did that. And his eFG was only 50 points higher than Mills.

Jesus Gomez
Because he only shoots when he's wiiiiide open.

Michael Erler
Which Mills should try sometime.
Jesus Gomez
No, he shouldn't.

Michael Erler
Shooting when open is ideal.

Jesus Gomez
Sometimes that's not an option. That's why you play Mills over Joseph in big moments.

Michael Erler
And that "sometimes" isn't when there's 17 seconds to go on a shot clock

Jesus Gomez
I have a feeling we are not going to agree on this.

Michael Erler
And I have a feeling 90 percent of PtR will agree with you. Such is my lot in life.

Jesus Gomez
We'll test that theory with a poll. Also, you should try being right sometime. It's pretty great.

Michael Erler
I used 'em all up last year. None left.
My preference would be for the Spurs to re-sign Joseph, trade Mills and draft a two guard or a 6-4 or above combo guard.

Jesus Gomez
How high would you be willing to go when bringing back Joseph?

Michael Erler
What Mills makes now. Three years, 13 mil? Two years and an option?

Jesus Gomez
Sounds reasonable. I'm for either letting Cory walk or bringing him back for cheap as a third point guard. You'd take him over Mills and now we are both angry at each other, like we expected to be after this particular conversation.

[RD2191]

Biggest cojo fan on ST but his lack of aggression has been costly. He plays too timid even when he's shown that he's improved. And yes, I've said Mills is another Neal for a long time now. He is a chucker. Also not the first time I say that. I remember when I was pissed a couple of seasons ago when Mills was taking more shots off of the bench than Kawhi as a starter. I said Kawhi needed to get more touches and become the 2nd option, scrubs laughed at me. That being said I like both Mills and Cojo. I don't understand why Pop fell in love with Mills against the Clippers. Cojo had been playing very well and to lose his minutes to Mills coming back from injury must of been demoralizing. We definitely could have of used his defense against Rivers/CP3. Pop really messed up.

[apalisoc_9]

Keep Mills. tell Joseph thank you for being a good sport, unless he wants to stay...If he wants to stay, Keep him. He probably requested to be traded though or requested the spurs not to match.

[Raven]

i agree with everything the joseph guy said. Honestly, there is no comparison between the two, there actually is no comparison between joseph and parker either.

[Richie]

I think we should keep Joseph because he can do all the things we will need in a post-Manu world. Erler summed it up perfectly here:

If Ginobili was playing three more years, I'd prefer Mills. With him retiring or at most playing one last season at like 18 minutes for 65 games, give me Joseph.

He's right, Joseph is better at everything except off the dribble 3's, and Joseph is actually a very underrated 3 point shooter.

All else being equal I think it's a tough decision, but there's even more to it than that. We can probably get a first rounder for Mills, who is a proven playoff performer on a cheap deal for the next 2 years. In those terms it's a choice between Joseph + 1st rounder or Mills, which seems like an easy decision.

[DMC]

Biggest cojo fan on ST but his lack of aggression has been costly. He plays too timid even when he's shown that he's improved. And yes, I've said Mills is another Neal for a long time now. He is a chucker. Also not the first time I say that. I remember when I was pissed a couple of seasons ago when Mills was taking more shots off of the bench than Kawhi as a starter. I said Kawhi needed to get more touches and become the 2nd option, scrubs laughed at me. That being said I like both Mills and Cojo. I don't understand why Pop fell in love with Mills against the Clippers. Cojo had been playing very well and to lose his minutes to Mills coming back from injury must of been demoralizing. We definitely could have of used his defense against Rivers/CP3. Pop really messed up.

This has to be a system result. I've seen too many guys play timid for it to be an individual character trait. Timid guys don't make it to the NBA. Pop's system is one of sink or swim, and if you up Pop benches you. That's enough to make guys try to paint by numbers when they enter the game, instead of allowing their own artistry to take over (which is what the Spurs need).

It's no doubt a delicate balancing act for Pop, and there are some casualties from it.

[DMC]

I think we should keep Joseph because he can do all the things we will need in a post-Manu world. Erler summed it up perfectly here:



He's right, Joseph is better at everything except off the dribble 3's, and Joseph is actually a very underrated 3 point shooter.

All else being equal I think it's a tough decision, but there's even more to it than that. We can probably get a first rounder for Mills, who is a proven playoff performer on a cheap deal for the next 2 years. In those terms it's a choice between Joseph + 1st rounder or Mills, which seems like an easy decision.

I don't think anyone else in the league who's not a Popciple (lol) wants Patty Mills. He's too small to guard anyone and he's a streaky chucker. He's a high energy guy and great team chemistry guy, but you need a team full of team guys instead of individual mercs, else Patty is just a side note. He'd have some moments like Neal but not much else.

[-21-]

Biggest cojo fan on ST but his lack of aggression has been costly. He plays too timid even when he's shown that he's improved. And yes, I've said Mills is another Neal for a long time now. He is a chucker. Also not the first time I say that. I remember when I was pissed a couple of seasons ago when Mills was taking more shots off of the bench than Kawhi as a starter. I said Kawhi needed to get more touches and become the 2nd option, scrubs laughed at me. That being said I like both Mills and Cojo. I don't understand why Pop fell in love with Mills against the Clippers. Cojo had been playing very well and to lose his minutes to Mills coming back from injury must of been demoralizing. We definitely could have of used his defense against Rivers/CP3. Pop really messed up.

Are you Michael Erler tbh?

Anyway, as much as I love Patty, if Manu is retiring then I'd understand keeping Cory over him. The only problem with Cojo as you said is his aggressiveness. Most of the time he's open, instead of taking an open 3 he opts to drive or pass. His % isn't that bad so I'm not sure why he's hesitant when it comes to shooting. Maybe Pop hasn't given him the green light.

[Silver&Black]

Jesus Gomez

Anyway, I have this theory. Mills is Bonner, Joseph is every other big man without a three-pointer the Spurs have used since Bonner joined the team.

[jeebus]

Spurs with CancerJo as main backup: spurms struggle during regular season, 1st round exit

Spurs with MVPatty as main backup: spurms win regular season le, rape playoff compe ion

[HEBsteaks]

I would say keep both as they both serve a big need. Manu wont be around forever so the 2nd unit will need someone to run the offense, and Cojo can do that. The problem with Cojo is the same with Kawhi and probably every young player on the team, they will always become soft and defer to the vets, mainly TP or Manu. If Cojo could find his happy place, I think he can be a beast.

Patty can play the Green role for the 2nd unit. While Pattys D isnt great, his hustle and pressure makes up for it.

Make Cojo the back up and tell him to control the offense and dont defer unless coach says so.

[RD2191]

This has to be a system result. I've seen too many guys play timid for it to be an individual character trait. Timid guys don't make it to the NBA. Pop's system is one of sink or swim, and if you up Pop benches you. That's enough to make guys try to paint by numbers when they enter the game, instead of allowing their own artistry to take over (which is what the Spurs need).

It's no doubt a delicate balancing act for Pop, and there are some casualties from it.

The problem with Pop is that he isn't consistent. One small up by Green/Tiago and they get on or benched immediately. On the other hand Parker and Mills can chuck away/screw up on defense and still play consistent minutes.

[dbestpro]

We still do not know who Joseph is. If given the green light would he flourish? He never has turnovers because he gives up the ball early. He does not make the other players better offensively, but these drawbacks actually may be more a result of Pop coaching him conservatively. I would like to see given free reign to see what he could do, and above all I would like to see him learn the pick, and roll. If he can function no better than what he currently presents, then Mills would be pg.

[tholdren]

The idiots on PTR are almost as bad as stephan a smith.

Heres the deal. If Cory was so good, why didnt he get ANY minutes in the last 3 games of the playoffs, EVEN with an injured Parker?

I like joseph, I hated him his first 2 years, but he has shown improvement, and I do think hes going to get better.

With that being said, PAtty has better stats in almost everything, including rebounding, steals, and assist percentage rates. Mills gets better in the playoffs, and while cory, had an ok run last year, THIS YEAR HE DIDNT HAVE AN ASSIST. How in the do you proclaim you have a better point when HE DOESNT RECORD AN ASSIST? Same thing last year, Cory had 9 assists in 17 games and 90 minutes. How does that happen? I dont know, but the that comes off PTR is amazing, and the site should be shut down immediately. clowns

[TheGreatYacht]

Spurs with CancerJo as main backup: spurms struggle during regular season, 1st round exit

Spurs with MVPatty as main backup: spurms win regular season le, rape playoff compe ion

[Mikeanaro]

MVPatty all the way.

[benstanfield]

Why can't it be both? If Manu really is retiring, play them both in the 2nd unit and let Cory guard whichever small Patty can't.

[Sean Cagney]

Biggest cojo fan on ST but his lack of aggression has been costly. He plays too timid even when he's shown that he's improved. And yes, I've said Mills is another Neal for a long time now. He is a chucker. Also not the first time I say that. I remember when I was pissed a couple of seasons ago when Mills was taking more shots off of the bench than Kawhi as a starter. I said Kawhi needed to get more touches and become the 2nd option, scrubs laughed at me. That being said I like both Mills and Cojo. I don't understand why Pop fell in love with Mills against the Clippers. Cojo had been playing very well and to lose his minutes to Mills coming back from injury must of been demoralizing. We definitely could have of used his defense against Rivers/CP3. Pop really messed up.

Mills was one of the few to keep them in games and actually show against the Clippers? He was hitting his threes and FT's and you don't know why Pop played him? I didn't get that part there. Cojo is okay but he would not have helped that series IMO, they needed a spark and scoring and Mills was one of the few hitting.

[RD2191]

Mills was one of the few to keep them in games and actually show against the Clippers? He was hitting his threes and FT's and you don't know why Pop played him? I didn't get that part there. Cojo is okay but he would not have helped that series IMO, they needed a spark and scoring and Mills was one of the few hitting.

our offense was fine against the clips. we needed defense in that series.

[Mugen]

they're both better than the fat french cow currently starting at the PG spot tbh.

[Malik Hairston]

they're both better than the fat french cow currently starting at the PG spot tbh.

[apalisoc_9]

they're both better than the fat french cow currently starting at the PG spot tbh.

[Sean Cagney]

our offense was fine against the clips. we needed defense in that series.

Really??? Tony was way off, Green and a few others were not hitting most of the series so we needed both O and D. Joseph I doubt turns the series man, they lose alot of scoring when he is in there and not aggressive. He is decent on D though. Patty and Beli our hottest shooters in the series from outside and saved us some games.

[RD2191]

Really??? Tony was way off, Green and a few others were not hitting most of the series so we needed both O and D. Joseph I doubt turns the series man, they lose alot of scoring when he is in there and not aggressive. He is decent on D though. Patty and Beli our hottest shooters in the series from outside and saved us some games.

not really, and if they saved us it's because we were down due to terrible defense in the first place. we scored plenty even in our losses. and cojo wouldn't of been a game changer but his defense was needed on cp3. paul was torching parker and mills and don't forget the game austin rivers absolutely destroyed patty off of the bench. cojo would of played was better d than mills on rivers.

[BacktoBasics]

The problem with Pop is that he isn't consistent. One small up by Green/Tiago and they get on or benched immediately. On the other hand Parker and Mills can chuck away/screw up on defense and still play consistent minutes.

Partially correct but certainly the most valid observation of the thread. Pop consistently affords players minutes when they successfully push Pops outer limits. That doesn't always mean "successfully" in our eyes but in the ways Pop wants them to push their game. This has been good and bad for Joseph since he's basically played within his perceived skill set and been careful to not push Pops patience. On the flip side of this we've never really seen if he can develop outside of that s .