Pop can't coach backup point guards

[timvp]

Watching George Hill come in and play dominant defense against the Suns was great to see. But the cir stances had me pissed at Pop. If the Steve Nash wouldn't have gotten hot, Hill was headed to a DNP-CD. Pop looks like he's on the road to, once again, destroying the confidence and the effectiveness of the team's backup point guard.

I understand wanting to give Mason the ball more often. I agree that he needs more touches than he's gotten in the previous six weeks. But that is doable with him at the shooting guard position. There's no reason to play him at point to get him touches. Just let Mason run pick-and-rolls in the half court set ... especially since that's what he ends up doing when he plays point.

With Mason at point, Pop is setting it up so that Hill will be out of the rotation once Ginobili returns. I just don't agree with that. Hill brings too much to the table. Sure he has some warts but an athlete who can rebound, concentrate on defense and play unselfish basketball should fit perfectly into the system of Spurs Basketball.

Basically, the only two point guards to survive Pop's point guard treatment over the years have been AJ and Parker. Both players survived because they were supremely confident in their own abilities. Every other point guard was murdered by Pop.

Kerr came in as a high profile reserve point guard fresh off of three championships and he was utterly useless in his first stint under Pop. Antonio Daniels wilted under Pop before going on to become one of the best backup point guards of the last decade. Speedy Claxton is remembered for his Game 6 against the Nets performance but he had many downs as ups in his Spurs career.

Terry Porter came to the Spurs as a premier backup point guard and instantly turned into a liability. Charlie Ward, Nick Van Exel and Damon Stoudamire came to the Spurs playing decent basketball but Pop swiftly ended their careers. Last year with Stoudamire was amazing. After playing well and helping out the first few games, Pop told Stoudamire to stop passing so much and start shooting more. The result? Pop benched Stoudamire for becoming a chucker.

Then there's the lovable Beno Udrih. No doubt he's not the easiest player to root for but he was talented and had more than enough ability to be a backup point guard. But Pop chewed him up and spit him out like all the others.

Now it looks like Hill is about to go down that road. Pop has already taken away his ballhandling responsibilities. His minutes are about to evaporate. Then comes the part where Pop is surprised when the backup point guard doesn't play with supreme confidence when he suddenly finds himself back in the mix. And then the story ends with the backup point guard getting traded for pennies on the dollar as the Spurs welcome in the next poor sap who's about to get eaten alive by Pop's inability to coach backup point guards.

I think the main problem is Pop doesn't know what he wants from a backup point. He'll bench a backup point for playing bad defense but he'll also bench a backup point for playing good defense but not being aggressive enough offensively. It's like he doesn't realize that all backup point guards have some sort of flaws. That's why they are backup point guards.

This latest giving up on Hill just doesn't make much sense. When it comes down to it, the move will basically be taking any minutes Hill would get and give them to Finley.

Good luck to Hill and hopefully he can persevere and keep the job the next time he's given the chance.

/rant

[usckk]

Good post! I thought about this before too, so I am curious what other people think.

However, I don't think its just for the backup PG position. If you look at other positions, Pop has "destroyed" them as well, maybe not as much. Look at Barry as an example before he came here. He was a different player--a much more complete player. As a Spurs, Barry just turned in to a spot up 3 point shooter and not much else.

As for Ward and Stoudemire, I think the sample size is too small. It's a norm for a player not to come in and play well right away. And one can only imagine that additional difficulty in having to play the PG position

I think mainly it all about the player's mentality. If they are weak, they will fail. If they are strong, they'll make it and take the challenge. Mason is a great example of a confident guy (as evident by his 4 game-winners this year). And because of it, he has been able to play like his usual self (before he was a Spurs) and even surpassed it. Besides confidence, raw talent can also help one surpass the difficulty in assimilating to Pop's system.

I think you are right though in that Pop is harder on PGs.

[usckk]

I need to think about this more. I'll be back after my classes today

[timvp]

Barry got plenty of chances. He didn't always have consistent minutes but it wasn't like he was ever completely out of compe ion for minutes. And actually, Barry would benefit when Pop would give up on point guards.

Great coach overall but I can't think of a backup point guard who could thrive under him. It's basically impossible to please him and stay on his good side from the backup point guard position.

Shoot too much? Benched for being a chucker. Shoot too little? Benched for not being aggressive enough. Concentrate on defense? Benched for not doing enough offensively. Hustle player? Benched for not being consistent enough.

It says something in each of the four championship runs, Pop changed his backup point guard at some point during the playoffs. He even changed the backup point guard a couple of times a few of those championships.

[usckk]

I agree. Pop is definitely hard on PG.

[usckk]

Here's another thought: Maybe Pop is just wanting to narrow down the rotation. Perhaps Hill's decreasing minutes is more Mason being great than Hill doing anything wrong.

(p.s: I'm not disagreeing with you; I'm just putting thoughts out there)

[polandprzem]

Here's another thought: Maybe Pop is just wanting to narrow down the rotation. Perhaps Hill's decreasing minutes is more Mason being great than Hill doing anything wrong.

(p.s: I'm not disagreeing with you; I'm just putting thoughts out there)

nope

He put Udoka and Hairston to eat Hills minutes.

[ElNono]

If anything, and unlike most of the ones before him, Hill can play defense. And that might be what saves him from the Pop's meat grinder. That's what has kept Vaughn in the mix all these years. At the end of the day you have to remember that our starting PG is a superstar that's young enough to play for long stretches, and so the backup PG role is somewhat limited these days.
There's also the factor of being a rookie, and coaches like Pop, Larry Brown, even Sloan, they rather stick with the vets than having to live with the rook's mistakes. That's why you'll see Finley taking Hill's minutes this season. I think if Hill can withstand a season or two on the bench, eventually Pop will call his number more often.
Even seasoned players like Oberto and Bonner had to sit out a season or two before they become regulars in the rotation. That seems to be the Spurs way.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Timvp, I generally share your opinions and takes, but I disagree on this one. At the least, it's too early to say that.

IMO Pop is still in an experimenting mode and unlike in previous seasons I don't think he's already got a set in stone view for the playoff rotation. This could be a good or a bad thing, I can't really say,but we're seeing a lot of unorthodox decision making from Pop right now ( last night's game,I think, was won exactly because of his unorthodox decisions ). Mason handling the backup PG role hasn't really been a big hit so far, but I think it's due to two things :

1. Pop knows/expects Hill's first plaoff experience to not be exactly very smooth, so at some point there's gotta be an alternative or two. Vaughn is a steady hand and everyone knows he could manage, but if we need more scoring then Manu or Mason would be more viable options.

2. With Manu out we need Mason to get more touches, especially if he starts hot, like he did against Phoenix last night. In high scoring games Mason has to get more touches for us to have a better chance.

In other words, I believe with the return of Manu, we'll see Hill back as the primary backup, while Mason's role/touches would reduce ( or take more from Finley's ). However, I fully expect Hill to struggle at some point in the playoffs, which is normal, and at that point this experiment with Mason as backup could be very helpful, especially if Pop prefers a backcourt of Mason and Manu for stretches, in which the shooter would handle the backup PG responsibilities, rather than the slasher.

I also don't think it's fair comparison between the likes of MMouse/Van Exel and Hill. Generally there have been two types who have come here as a backup PG in the last few years ( I exclude Anthony Carter ) - veterans at the wrong end of their careers - Porter, Kerr, Ward, Van Exel, Mighty Mouse, and younger/rookies - Speedy, Beno and Hill. With the exception of Beno, I don't think Pop's treatment has ruined anyone. And Beno is debateable, because he's not exactly setting the NBA on fire with his play, Kings want him out less than a year after giving him his contract, says it all. When it comes to the veteran group I think, if anything, Pop has trusted them too much, asking them to shoot more, take more responsibilities than they could at the stage of their careers.

With his younger PGs Pop likes to give them the rough treatment from time to time to see if he can trust them and how they would respond. Parker became an allstar, whereas if he had been drafted by another team, I believe there's a decent possibility he could have spent his career as a backup and never panning out. Parker's response to Pop's treatment was as big a difference to his development, as his talent, if not bigger.

Beno, on the other hand folded. But from what I've seen so far from Hill, I believe he's much more a Tony Parker personality, than Beno, so there is every reason to think he can make the grade. Last night was a big step in this direction because it showed that Hill was not complacent after being headed towards a DNP, it also showed that Pop would trust him to go out there in crunch time and put him on the opponent's most clutch player. Hill responded very well and even if there are setbacks along the way, he's shown he can be counted on.

Hill's mature and tough, he has two examples right in front of him about what his career path could be. I trust him to not fold under Pop's treatment and I'm sure Pop knows what he's doing. I don't think he's ruined Hill's confidence at all, especially after last night's game.

[spurster]

An alternative POV was that Hill hit the rookie wall, and Pop was waiting for him to get past it. I would guess Sunday's performance will get Hill more time.

[Agloco]

Good observations, but I think the thought could be extended to most reserves. I notice that Pop has a penchant for burying people on the bench at times for no obvious reasons. See Bowen this year...... I know full well that it's a byproduct of the fact that Pop like to tinker with the roster during the season, but it's almost like he forgets some people exist.

[SenorSpur]

Excellent thoughts!

It's something that I've been hinted at ever since this transition started. I know it's sacrilege to criticize Pop, but these points are dead on.

If Pop is insistent on getting more touches and minutes for Mason, something I believe is necessary too, he should start by cutting down on Finley's minutes. I noticed this in the Dallas game, where Finley's minutes were in the high 30's. Once Parker took a breather around the 4:00 mark of the 1st quarter, Pop siimply slid Mason over to backup PG, Finley re-entered the game and teamed up with Bowen at the forward spot, in a smaller lineup. When Hill finally did get into the game in the 2nd quarter, he was relegated to inbounding the ball the Mason, and running up court and setting up in the corners. Hardly an area where he can be effective.

Sure Hill isn't the shooter that Mason is, but Hill's ability to breakdown defenses, get into the paint, and pressure the ball defensively, are sorely needed when Parker is on the bench. Of course, the kid is going to make mistakes, but I see no point in castrating him by cutting down his minutes, taking away his ballhandling duties.

By the way, this change has been coming for some time now. When Manu was healthy, Pop was beginning to entrust primary ballhandling responsibilities to Ginobilii and not Hill, when they were paired together. It simply doesn't make any logical, basketball sense. Besides, Mason is more useful as a spot-up shooter, than the primary backup PG.

The Spurs have already tried to trade Hill once, so as much as Pop raved about his abilities when drafted, I just wonder how much Pop truly values this kid and if Hill will survive Pop's notorious, confidence-killing, mind games. To me, it's all an exercise in futility. I wish he'd simply go with the rookie and live with the results. The only was Hill is going to fully develop is with consistent playing time and learning from his mistakes.

[TDMVPDPOY]

just watch the game, how come his not allowing fkn hill handle the ball and setup plays.....

fkn mason

[1Parker1]

I actually loved what I've been seeing from Hill this entire season, even his bad games. I was racking my brain yesterday after seeing him hustle on boards and defense against a 2 time reigning MVP in the final minutes of a close game yesterday...why doesn't he get consistent minutes?

And the funny thing is, Michael Finley has all those flaws that you mentioned as a backup SG...he's not always aggressively offensively, his defense is suspect, etc. Yet he gets the most consistent playing time I've ever seen for a rotation player on Pop's bench in years.

[1Parker1]

Oh and call me crazy...but I think Hill would be great against the Lakers...especially defending Vuijiic and even Fisher when Parker is on the bench. Yet I have a feeling that he'll be riding the bench come playoff time should the Lakers and Spurs meet.

[MoSpur]

I called this last week when I started this thread about Mason not being a good backup PG. I hate when Pop goes to Mason as the backup PG. Hill has so much potential and natural gifts that it doesn't make any sense of him sitting on the bench. I completely agree with Timvp.

Roger doesn't have the skills to be a creator in the lane and doesn't have the court vision like a PG should have. He's great off the screen. That's it though. As mentioned earlier, Pop can do that for Mason w/out having Mason as the backup PG.

[stéphane]

Money is no TP.

Roger at the point is far from pop best idea this season. His shooting is way better than his slashing and his pnr use is so so at best. On top of that, Georges seems a lot more lost on offense when he's paired with Tony thus playing at the 2 spot.
Stop messing with the player's roles and confidence and bring Georges back in the rotation at the point, we really can use his athleticism, rebounding and defense in the playoffs.

[raspsa]

Hill is a different case IMO from the former Spurs players mentioned. Most important distinction is Hill has the makings of a lockdown defender which he demonstrated against Nash. This automatically earns bonus point with Pop. As far as scoring, Hill has shown he can do so, he just has to be selective in his shot attempts. One advantage he has is he has shown am ability to take the ball strong to the rim. He has also demonstrated 3-point range. He just has to learn to take what the defense gives him and not force anything. true his minutes will go down as Pop will give the vets more PT. But situations are sure to arise where Hills defense and other strengths will be required. Hopefully he doesn't get demoralized and demonstrates the professionalism that's expected of him.

[ManuTastic]

Excellent thoughts!

If Pop is insistent on getting more touches and minutes for Mason, something I believe is necessary too, he should start by cutting down on Finley's minutes.

Sure Hill isn't the shooter that Mason is, but Hill's ability to breakdown defenses, get into the paint, and pressure the ball defensively, are sorely needed when Parker is on the bench. Of course, the kid is going to make mistakes, but I see no point in castrating him by cutting down his minutes, taking away his ballhandling duties.

By the way, this change has been coming for some time now. When Manu was healthy, Pop was beginning to entrust primary ballhandling responsibilities to Ginobilii and not Hill, when they were paired together. It simply doesn't make any logical, basketball sense. Besides, Mason is more useful as a spot-up shooter, than the primary backup PG.

The Spurs have already tried to trade Hill once, so as much as Pop raved about his abilities when drafted, I just wonder how much Pop truly values this kid and if Hill will survive Pop's notorious, confidence-killing, mind games. To me, it's all an exercise in futility. I wish he'd simply go with the rookie and live with the results. The only was Hill is going to fully develop is with consistent playing time and learning from his mistakes.

The above accurately shows what Pop thinks of Hill: he's not a ballhandler. I haven't seen too much this season to think that's wrong. Has anyone else? I would fully agree with giving Hill more of Finley's minutes, and letting Mason/Manu be the backup points. Hill has lots of nice skills, esp on defense, but I don't see him as a PG that much.

[m33p0]

Pop has a tendency to just suddenly out of the blue stick a bench player into a game for long stretches.

i'm calling it now. Hill will play significant minutes against the fakers. maybe even finish that game.

[MoSpur]

^
Mason has better handles? I seriously doubt that. Manu does, but not Mason. Mason can bring the ball up when there isn't that much pressure, but the guy cannot handle the rock that much better than Hill.

[coyotes_geek]

I understand wanting to give Mason the ball more often. I agree that he needs more touches than he's gotten in the previous six weeks. But that is doable with him at the shooting guard position. There's no reason to play him at point to get him touches. Just let Mason run pick-and-rolls in the half court set ... especially since that's what he ends up doing when he plays point.

With Mason at point, Pop is setting it up so that Hill will be out of the rotation once Ginobili returns. I just don't agree with that. Hill brings too much to the table. Sure he has some warts but an athlete who can rebound, concentrate on defense and play unselfish basketball should fit perfectly into the system of Spurs Basketball.

Just a theory here, but perhaps Pop is giving PG minutes to Mason to see if he can handle the PG duties in the playoffs, not out of a mis-trust of Hill, but as a test to Mason. We know Pop likes 3 point guards on the active roster, especially in playoff games. And Pop's definition of a playoff capable point guard is more than just being able to dribble the ball up the court. If Pop feels that a Parker/Hill/Mason trio is good enough then that allows him to keep Vaughn inactive.

Then again, you could be right that Pop is working on phasing Hill out of the rotation, but then if that's his plan why let Hill play the entire 4th quarter with the game on the line? Just seems a bit contradictory to me.

[m33p0]

Just a theory here, but perhaps Pop is giving PG minutes to Mason to see if he can handle the PG duties in the playoffs. We know Pop likes 3 point guards on the active roster, especially in playoff games. And Pop's definition of a playoff capable point guard is more than just being able to dribble the ball up the court. If Pop feels that a Parker/Hill/Mason trio is good enough then that allows him to keep Vaughn inactive.

Then again, you could be right that Pop is working on phasing Hill out of the rotation, but then if that's his plan why let Hill play the entire 4th quarter with the game on the line? Just seems a bit contradictory to me.

i've seen enough of it.

[urunobili]

I agree with timvp's rant and his well thought analysis... however... i still won't give up to the idea/thought that Hill will play a lot during the playoffs and may end up being key due to his defensive capabilities (someone has to stop Farmar and Vuja )... it's still a little too early to see how things will develop... Mason has had some childish mistakes running the point and has shoot some bad shots (long threes) when running it... so i think we should wait and see before throwing up the towel...

[BestPFInTheGame21]

Ill settle for Pops style of coaching.
Good points though....
Im sure they wouldnt have been so stingy in giving up Hill in a trade if they didnt have future plans for him though...